Ivy 3.6 Changes

Swann

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#2
We're screwed against CC, seriously. Someone please tell me if they find an answer to CC. Ftilt feels awful now. Slow, less hits, not safe on hit or on block, SDI ramped back up so they just DI straight through you again with no effort like in 3.02

Nair is the same and vine whip actually kills earlier now.

Really though, we are super screwed against CC unless something changes.

Love love love the new dash attack animation. Healing on pummel and uthrow is amazing. Vine "trails" look awesome, haha.
 
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Jiggly

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#3
We're screwed against CC, seriously. Someone please tell me if they find an answer to CC. Ftilt feels awful now. Slow, less hits, not safe on hit or on block, SDI ramped back up so they just DI straight through you again with no effort like in 3.02

Nair is the same and vine whip actually kills earlier now.

Really though, we are super screwed against CC unless something changes.

Love love love the new dash attack animation. Healing on pummel and uthrow is amazing. Vine "trails" look awesome, haha.
CC?
 

TreK

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#6
I'm ****ing done.

Will edit tonight with a full fledged roasting, gotta work rn.

edit : you know what PMDT ? I don't actually give a ****, so I'm not gonna bother. I already gave PM a chance by not dropping it last update and giving you pretty damn thorough explanations on why 3.02 Ivy sucked, why 3.5 Ivy sucked, and what to try to do from there. And as far as I'm concerned, that chance, you blew it miserably. I'm not giving you yet another chance. At this point I've been displeased with PM for more than 75% of the time I've been playing it and it's not giving me any sign that it's going to get any better. That's a pretty good pointer that I should just move on.
I have better games to play. Cya.
 
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Joined
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#8
I honestly can't imagine our community without you, TreK, and I hope you decide against dropping PM. Your participation on Smashboards holds discussion on our character together a lot of the time, and we all appreciate the work you have done maintaining the video thread.

On 3.6 Ivy, I think she's better than in 3.5. The tether fix, although not quite the buff I was hoping for, is still great, and the bair change honestly isn't really a nerf. The first hit is the only part with a noticeable range change, and that allows for an easier time hitting the second hit, and a harder time for the opponent to SDI out of it. Nair is about the same, fsmash is definitely better, and the pummel and upthrow buffs are absolutely huge. The fact that you get 9 charge points from pummel -> pummel -> uthrow with the opportunity to get more from a uair afterwards is amazing. The only real nerf was ftilt. I know Ivy isn't gonna be super high tier, but she's definitely more viable than before, and I'm happy with that.
 
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Dng3

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 14, 2008
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#9
Trek I think you're a great Ivy player and I agree, it's great to have you involved in the community. I haven't played enough to have a take on 3.6 Ivy but I do hope maybe you'll give the new build some more time before leaving entirely.

You were correct in a prior post about how Ivy's design was not quite pinned down yet, whether to be defensive or offensive. I am assuming all the changes is guiding Ivy towards a more aggressive style of play--hence the Bair range nerf. Perhaps it's a start in a more defined direction for Ivy. Let's stick together through it!
 

separys

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#10
I'm not particularly good at the game or anything, so forgive me for my stupidity here, but I'm not seeing any real problems with the 3.6's Ivy so far. Her bair is sort of worse, sure, but it still works well. Besides bair, everything else seems fine to me. The new animations are pretty groovy. I mean crouch cancelling's a pain, but it's always been a pain, hasn't it? And it's not like this is the final version of 3.6, so even if some gaping flaw pops up, I'm not terribly concerned. Plenty of time to fix problems, if they're important enough. Just my two cents.
 

Areon Tomek

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#11
Definitely not happy with 3.6 Ivysaur, the B-Air nerf is painful and uncalled for.
Side note: Probably just me, but I don't like the vine motion trails.

Edit: Changed playstyle to be a bit more grab heavy. Took notes on what B-Air edgeguards don't work anymore. Overall feeling a bit better with the 3.6 Ivy. 2-3 Solar Beams a match is really nice, now if I could only hit them...
 
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Servine1212

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#14
I'm happy with 3.6 ivysaur y'all need to quit johning about bair its still an amazing move. Aloso her grab is more rewarding and her recovery is more consistent.
 

Servine1212

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#15
We're screwed against CC, seriously. Someone please tell me if they find an answer to CC. Ftilt feels awful now. Slow, less hits, not safe on hit or on block, SDI ramped back up so they just DI straight through you again with no effort like in 3.02

Nair is the same and vine whip actually kills earlier now.

Really though, we are super screwed against CC unless something changes.

Love love love the new dash attack animation. Healing on pummel and uthrow is amazing. Vine "trails" look awesome, haha.
Swann I play almost exclusively against spacies and I gotta tell u cc is not an issue. Ivy has fair which can break cc kinds early and she had the range to camp back and build up damage. And downtilt and grab are also usefull. Y just gotta think out side the box. Cross up Nair to pivot grab also works wonders.
 

Swann

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#16
Spacies are among the lightest characters in the game. I don't see your point.

Please let me know when you play exclusively against peaches, samuses, zards, ROBs, etc etc etc

Ftilt is phenomenal as an antiair, but it's no longer as useful (if at all) against CC-heavy playstyles. That's all I'm saying. It will be difficult to play against characters that abuse pressing down, moreso than it was before.

As an aside: am I the only one who doesn't mind the bair nerf? It's barely a change.
 
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TreK

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#17
As an aside: am I the only one who doesn't mind the bair nerf? It's barely a change.
Nope

It's probably only going to matter in a few specific cases like edgeguarding ike or something imo.

Apparently they're trying to sell it as "it's going to make it harder to SDI out of Ivy's bair ! rejoice !" and I find that completely hilarious
 
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-Sothe

Smash Cadet
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Mar 10, 2015
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#18
Ivy's bair nerf is really small, and it really was necessary guys. You can still edgeguard with it, and it still functions pretty much the same, it's just now not able to single-handedly kill matchups anymore (read: jigglypuff, ness, mario, and other similar matchups are now not quite so frustrating for them when ivy just spams bair at them). I don't have any real gripes with any of the changes themselves, except for pummel healing 2% now. That just feels like such a snap decision, especially since I can already see that it's going to be overpowered. This change obviously had in mind an ivysaur playstyle that rarely grabs, but gets larger rewards when she does get them. I can tell you right now that my playstyle is not that, and that I go for a huge amount of grabs compared to every other ivy I've seen play so far.

The biggest frustration though was the lack of important changes. There are things that could have been done, such as giving a normal grab (adjust throw quality on d-throw and u-throw to compensate, also takes a lot of design and theoretical work), increasing shield size slightly, take away a jumpsquat frame (takes a HUGE amount of theoretical work, so I don't expect it), give certain moves more potency against CC (or just not decreasing our current f-tilt's potency against CC).

Overall, I think that this patch is two steps forward and one step back. Ftilt is a change I disagree with, but there are other ways to play around crouch cancel. Pummel should not heal 2%, and no one can convince me otherwise on that one lol, but the vine whip changes were excellent, as are the animation buffs, the up-throw buff, and I guess the fsmash buff. All of the nair changes were good too I suppose, but it will take some practice getting used to the fact that the top pop-up hitbox of nair is no longer there.
 

Dng3

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 14, 2008
Messages
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#19
After a few days of offline and netplay, I can say that Ivy is still perfectly capable. We'll be okay guys.

-F-smash buff was a welcome change. It was a risky move that was somewhat hard to hit/place into a combo and offered nothing too substantial in terms of power, but now it has the extra OMPH it needed.
-I'm happy with the up B change. It never felt right or satisfying killing with the "almost tipper" hit, and now it's providing more reward for spacing properly.
-F-tilt still functions really well and now it's supposedly links better too. I will miss the 7-hit drilling satisfaction though.
-Nair change is obviously a buff--more hit frames leading to more confirms
-Bair's decreased range was a fair change. It had ridiculous range with kill potential at the tip, with two hits to confirm. It was too good at out spacing characters, and was very safe at a distance. It's not that detrimental of a change either as others have mentioned but there will be that slight spacing adjustment to make.
-The new pummel and up throw however...I honestly think this is too much for Ivy. Like it wasn't really needed and may overpower the frequency of solarbeams now, and also centralizes throw options. Not saying Ivy's other throws are useless but now up throw heals 5% AND gives 5 charges to solarbeam? I think it's a bit much but hey I shouldn't be complaining about a buff...until they nerf it later =P

Also, all this talk about CC being Ivy's big issue. I agree, it can catch you by surprise at first but if you know your opponent will likely CC then mix them up. Throw a spaced razor leaf at them, space them out with Bair (it's still safe at max distance), cross them up on the other side with Nair. I don't know, I played against various players/characters and it's not hard to adapt once they think "Okay, it's Ivysaur. It's CC time". We may have loss f-tilt but I never thought of it as my anti-CC move. Ivy has other tools to counter.
 
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EmLeingod

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#20
She's fine. Solar beams are easier to get.

She still has dumb MUs vs all the melee characters, but it's whatever, I'll pick up a secondary I guess.
 

EmLeingod

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#21
We're screwed against CC, seriously. Someone please tell me if they find an answer to CC. Ftilt feels awful now. Slow, less hits, not safe on hit or on block, SDI ramped back up so they just DI straight through you again with no effort like in 3.02

Nair is the same and vine whip actually kills earlier now.

Really though, we are super screwed against CC unless something changes.
Nair (full airspeed past them) -> Pivotgrab/turn around jab
 
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Servine1212

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#22
Spacies are among the lightest characters in the game. I don't see your point.

Please let me know when you play exclusively against peaches, samuses, zards, ROBs, etc etc etc

Ftilt is phenomenal as an antiair, but it's no longer as useful (if at all) against CC-heavy playstyles. That's all I'm saying. It will be difficult to play against characters that abuse pressing down, moreso than it was before.

As an aside: am I the only one who doesn't mind the bair nerf? It's barely a change.
Lol I was just saying ivy can still Beat cc ad I myself wasn't too big on ftilt. Also nope call me crazy but I think the back air change was somewhat of a buff as it is harder to sdi. Now.
 

Servine1212

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#23
She's fine. Solar beams are easier to get.

She still has dumb MUs vs all the melee characters, but it's whatever, I'll pick up a secondary I guess.
Idk I tend to bop shieks with her, spaces aren't that bad (look at jz vs lain), and actually some Marths considrr ivysaur to be a bad matchup for marth. Against Marf u gotta shut down their ground game with d tilt and razor leaf and keep ur distance and space then out with back air and fair. I mean you don't really need a secondary.
 

Swann

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#24
Nair (full airspeed past them) -> Pivotgrab/turn around jab
Yeah, been doing this since Ivy's introduction in 2.5. It unfortunately doesn't work great on characters like Peach and ROB, but it's still useful and I'm having to rely on it a lot more. I'm just worried because it's not technically airtight pressure (for example, some characters can (STILL) CC jabs and counterhit us between jab1 and jab2).

Mostly I'm just kind of frustrated because I need to play much more lame until my opponent is around 40-60%

Still maining Ivy. Guess this will be the just another excuse to keep practicing.
 

Servine1212

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#25
Yeah, been doing this since Ivy's introduction in 2.5. It unfortunately doesn't work great on characters like Peach and ROB, but it's still useful and I'm having to rely on it a lot more. I'm just worried because it's not technically airtight pressure (for example, some characters can (STILL) CC jabs and counterhit us between jab1 and jab2).

Mostly I'm just kind of frustrated because I need to play much more lame until my opponent is around 40-60%

Still maining Ivy. Guess this will be the just another excuse to keep practicing.
Good luck swann! And yes against heavy floatys (peach, rob zard etc) its basically razor leaf, seed bomb ,and fair camping until like 40%
 

separys

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#26
Since the beta was released I've played Ivysaur in a tournament and I've seen others playing Ivy in tourney too. I'm convinced at this point that everything's all good, and it really seems to me that overall it's a buff. If no additional changes are made for the final release of 3.6, I can safely say I'll be satisfied.
 

__9__

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#27
Though I did not really play the Ivy in 3.5, I feel like the combo game of ivy has really improved. The moves seem to flow together better now. I also really like the healing buffs. It has made me want to focus more on playing Ivy in my matches.
 

Korudatsu

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#28
Nothing was changed about ivy's combo game, it's the same as it was. She just has no options against anyone faster than her. Maybe if razor leaf came out a few frames faster (or some way to punish someone just dash dancing in and out of our range), maybe if we could grab airborne people, or maybe if we got a fun usable dacus, something, anything, needs to happen to make me want to play ivy again :/
 

Alteffor

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#31
So how did the 3.6b ftilt changes make it useless v cc? And did the 3.6 changes make a difference?
In 3.6b, ftilt was easy to SDI through and punish on hit. Full 3.6 seems a bit better, though I haven't gotten a chance to play against many people since release.
 
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#32
Nothing was changed about ivy's combo game, it's the same as it was. She just has no options against anyone faster than her. Maybe if razor leaf came out a few frames faster (or some way to punish someone just dash dancing in and out of our range), maybe if we could grab airborne people, or maybe if we got a fun usable dacus, something, anything, needs to happen to make me want to play ivy again :/
I also want Ivy's razor leaf to be just like 2 frames faster. It's not cool to always be lasered out of it even with proper spacing and timing.
 

SunnieHD

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#33
Good luck swann! And yes against heavy floatys (peach, rob zard etc) its basically razor leaf, seed bomb ,and fair camping until like 40%
Try using down throw -> dair/uair at low percents

Edit: also use down throw and up throw and combo nairs
 
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