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Its impossible for Brawl to NOT be competitive.

Kirby M.D.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
320
I really don't get what's your problem.. are we allowed to express our opinion or not? If you think brawl is good as it is you got exactly what you were looking for while we didn't, so I think we have our right to express complains about the game. If our complains are that much of a problem for you then you are the ones who should get the f*** off of the brawl boards.



seriously, do you think I'm not going to play brawl nor care about it? In this case you guys are the ones who are overdoing it, not us..


You have a right to an opinion, and you have a right to complain. In fact, you have taken great pains to exercise that right in many places to all who would listen. The rampant negativity present in your posts is the problem, and has only served to annoy people like myself. If you had expressed the second part of your post in a calmer, less doom and gloom manner a good two pages ago, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Even if you are going to play Brawl until your Wii explodes, the way you've been posting since release does not show it at all. I have no problem with people complaining, it just grinds my gears when it becomes less rational complaint and more wounded pseudo-flaming.
 

brandutt845

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
128
This thread starter is WIN. EPIC WIN. Brawl is Brawl. Smash is Smash. It will ALWAYS be competitive.
 

Plasmaexe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
144
Location
Virginia
For those who are saying "Brawl is going to suck because it's not competitive omg," I hate you and I hope you die in a fire. If you think the game could have been better, then that's a different story and you're ok. Regular smash bros was still a good game even without air dodging/wave dashing. Items are still possible to turn off and the game sounds like it's going to be more balanced now (well mostly balanced, not entirely). This game will still require skill to play so don't say it's not going to be competitive. There's still a lot of stuff that people have to find out in this game and it hasn't been out in Japan for that long <_<.
 

Aldwyn McCloud

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
808
Location
My home (in Italy :D)
The rampant negativity present in your posts is the problem, and has only served to annoy people like myself. If you had expressed the second part of your post in a calmer, less doom and gloom manner a good two pages ago, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
about the rampant negativity that's because my opinion about brawl is negative. And about being offensive this is my original reply to this thread:

the point is.. as long as the game is so limiting there's nothing much to develop really. It might be true that people are overdoing it at the moment because the game hasn't been out for so long, however the elimination of L-cancel and wavedash along with the new physics alone is enough to make brawl matches look like slow mode melee ones. What made melee live on for 6 years is the fact that there were many possibilities to play it but most of them depended on wavedashing, L-canceling and all the stuff that allowed players to speed up the game. Without them, all that's left is a bunch of repetitive schemes that remind me of the papaer, scissors, rock game. Few possibilities and few counters to them, limitating both technically and strategically. I'm not saying brawl is impossible to be played competitively. In fact thanks to Jesus Sakurai decided to let live the item switch option to prevent brawl to be a 100% party game. With the items off players do have the same possibilities, but people will get bored soon because of the lack of possibilities. Imagine a version of smash where the characters play the paper, scissors and rock game. Would you be playing it or would you find it boring pretty soon? It's not like paper, scissors and rock game isn't competitive, since it works with mind skills of prediction (which btw is the same base of melee) but the possibilities are so limitating that a random choice could easily overwhelm a well tought one and it'd be too repetitive to be funny after a while. Unless something REALLY amazing is found out I predict competitve brawl won't last longer than about 1 year or 2. And also, if that amazing stuff is found out, it'd be thanks to smashboards members. Newbies with no smash experience will have to start study everything by scratch while we already know a lot of how smash physics work. Not to mention most of those newbies won't even have an interest in playing smash as a competitive game thus having no real reason to search for new stuff.
this is what you answered me..

Quoted for truth. Aldyn, DB, this one's for you. You two are the loudest complainers this side of the 35 Character Roster confirmation. If it's that big of a deal, get off of the Brawl boards so your misplaced grief doesn't give you an aneyurism. Crying and BAWWWWing about a 7 day old game is just sad and unnecessary.

Seriously, get the f*** over yourselves.
 

S2

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
1,503
Location
Socal 805 (aka Hyrule)
Any game can be played competitively as long as there are players who want to win.


Competitiveness really is not a reflection of a game's depth. But keep in mind, deep games often attract more players because they remain interesting long after release.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
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Oct 20, 2007
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Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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If you red what I wrote in the earlier posts you'd know I didn't state there can't be competitive play in braw, however it's going to be VERY limitating. And most high level Melee players agree with it. What if smash bros. 4 were really like rock, paper, scissors... would you be complaining for it being not like you wanted it to be or not? As i said, even rock, paper and scissors can be played competitively. But nodoby does because it's boring.
I haven't seen anyone besides you and one other person complaining about the competitive aspect of Brawl. Also, you're confusing a game you play with your hands with a 128-bit game that took years to program. You wouldn't just go out and say "I bet the U.S. Army could beat up a caveman." Why? Because it's stupid and doesn't prove a point. You shouldn't be worrying that the competitive aspect of Brawl is going to be "limitating" (excellent grammar BTW) and be figuring out how you can make it more competitive for yourself. You claim that you've played the game and you say it's too restrictive? Have you played it more than a week? No, you haven't, because it hasn't been out for more than a week. Do you think it took only a week for wave-dashing to be discovered? It was discovered on accident. A-c-c-i-d-e-n-t. You can't just think that you can magically find every possible physics abuse in the game in a week.
 

maelstrom218

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
1,040
Location
Madison, WI
Even if you are going to play Brawl until your Wii explodes, the way you've been posting since release does not show it at all. I have no problem with people complaining, it just grinds my gears when it becomes less rational complaint and more wounded pseudo-flaming.
Then. . .allow me! *appears in poof of smoke*

The point here is that although anything can be done competitively--rock/paper/scissors is a good example--the more simplistic and less depth it has, the more boring it becomes. Sure, you can play rock/paper/scissors [R/P/S] until the cows come home, tourney-style, but would you be willing to travel across the country to participate in a National Championship? Probably not, because the game is boring. It's simplistic.

Now, imagine a new take on the game, which is actually popular in Japan game shows (and was present in Wii Super Monkey Ball): you have 2 opponents (as usual), but in front of both people is a foam hammer and a foam shield. R/P/S is played as normal, but here's the catch: whoever wins that game must seize the hammer and smack the other person on the head. If they manage to do so before the opponent uses the foam shield to protect themselves, the hammer player gets a point. If they fail to hit the opponent on the head because he shielded themselves in time, no points are awarded. Whoever gets the most points wins.

Well, this becomes slightly more interesting now, doesn't it? Now, instead of a one-dimensional plane of play involving mere guessing (R/P/S), you've now added another layer involving reaction time and physical dexterity. The additional rules and point system create more depth, turning this R/P/S hybrid into a multidimensional game. And trust me, this game is A LOT more fun than standard R/P/S. And it's because there's more depth to it.

Now, apply this to the Melee/Brawl situation. We know what Melee is: as SynikaL put it, a (slightly unconventional) fighter in party-game aesthetics. The basic engine itself has quite a bit of depth: L-cancelling, differing falling speeds, crouch-cancelling, DI, an emphasis on edgeguarding. There is also a huge technical element to Melee as well: wavedashing, teching of all kinds, combos. If nothing else, this game is DEEP. The basic game engine as well as the technical aspects create this depth. All is well and good.

Transition to Brawl. Look at how the basic game engine has been stripped away--no more L-cancelling, no more CC'ing, no more different falling speeds. And of course, the technical aspects like combos or wavedashing have been undeniably altered (i.e. now only 2-hit combos) or removed entirely.

What I'm getting at is this: what gave Melee depth--mostly its in-game engine--has been stripped away. Applying this to the R/P/S analogy, imagine that someone came into your group of friends, and demanded that you couldn't play that R/P/S hybrid game anymore--no more shields or hammers. Only old-school mano-a-mano R/P/S. That's what Sakurai's done. He's stripped away the depth of Melee into something altogether different, and from what it seems like now, much more simple and 1-dimensional.

But of course, we only know about the basic game engine of Brawl at this point. Maybe (probably) there'll be glitches discovered that'll add much more technical depth to the game. But surely you can understand a competitive Melee player's negative reaction when they see that Brawl basically stripped away a lot of the depth that Melee had in favor of something decidedly different.

And how many of you actually just skipped to the end of this long post?
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
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Fairfax, VA
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Maelstrom, I read your whole post, because I'm a good little boy. :p You do bring up good points as to why Brawl is watered down compared to Melee, but you said it yourself: we only know the basic engine of the game so far. L-cancelling, CC'ing, and wave-dashing were not discovered in the first week of Melee being played.
 

Dekuschrub

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
3,295
Location
St. Louis MO
i just don't see how brawl could be a more fun competitive game than melee...

this game will be about patient spacing. Camping will be so freaking effective.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Transition to Brawl. Look at how the basic game engine has been stripped away--no more L-cancelling, no more CC'ing, no more different falling speeds. And of course, the technical aspects like combos or wavedashing have been undeniably altered (i.e. now only 2-hit combos) or removed entirely.

He's stripped away the depth of Melee into something altogether different, and from what it seems like now, much more simple and 1-dimensional.
Well, I believe it's far too early to say Brawl will be limited in competitive play. Yeah, yeah I know the old "you're getting too hopeful!" but, I can say the same thing negatively (as in "you're being too pessimistic!") but will I? Nahh.

What exactly is stopping Brawl from finding its own techs? Its own type of Wavedash? Its own depth. It is a whole new ballpark, it was a given when we found out it was using a new physics engine. Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 or any stretch of the word Melee. It's a new game, remember the transition from Smash 64 to Melee? No competitive scene in Smash 64, none. And now there is! If a game like Smash 64 can be competitive and have tons of depth (it does as I've seen in videos anyway...) why would Brawl be so... "limiting" as one would say? It's been out only merely a week and I'm positive that a day of playing it doesn't mean anything. You will play Brawl as long as Melee and then one day, someone will find something like they found Wavedashing.

This is all pretty hopeful, I realize that. But, why do we have to be so negative towards the infrastructure of Brawl in the first week? :confused:

Everyone knew the engine was going to be completely different! L-Canceling may have been a given I realize that, but, maybe Sakurai didn't want that much land fighting. Remember awhile back that on his blog he said he wanted some air combat. Maybe by ridding Brawl of L-Canceling he is making us go with the full jumps to land without lag so he moves finish in time so you don't suffer punishment.

All it amounts to is it's too early to say Brawl is limited even if you have played it because Melee was played for YEARS before we had Wavedashing or L-Canceling. It will be the same for Brawl, I'm positive. If it isn't, then we can get our competitive fix with Wavedashing and L-Canceling in Melee still.

Let's just enjoy the game until people find the main answer to competitive Brawl. Can we just do that? Does Brawl have to have a huge competitive scene the minute it hits store shelves? No, it doesn't.
 

Aldwyn McCloud

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
808
Location
My home (in Italy :D)
I haven't seen anyone besides you and one other person complaining about the competitive aspect of Brawl. Also, you're confusing a game you play with your hands with a 128-bit game that took years to program. You wouldn't just go out and say "I bet the U.S. Army could beat up a caveman." Why? Because it's stupid and doesn't prove a point. You shouldn't be worrying that the competitive aspect of Brawl is going to be "limitating" (excellent grammar BTW) and be figuring out how you can make it more competitive for yourself. You claim that you've played the game and you say it's too restrictive? Have you played it more than a week? No, you haven't, because it hasn't been out for more than a week. Do you think it took only a week for wave-dashing to be discovered? It was discovered on accident. A-c-c-i-d-e-n-t. You can't just think that you can magically find every possible physics abuse in the game in a week.
scissors, paper and rock shares the same prediction method with competitive Melee so the difference between the two games might actually be less marked than how'd you think. And anyway again, who said I'm not trying to find new stuff as well? Also if you haven't seen anyone complaining about brawl I think you should check the brawl boards again..

we only know the basic engine of the game so far. L-cancelling, CC'ing, and wave-dashing were not discovered in the first week of Melee being played.
and that's it. Personally I think it will be very hard for brawl to reach Melee's levels because IMO not even years of glitches will make up to the loss of Melee's stuff. If you don't share this opinion it's ok, just remember there's no need to impose yours either.

oh and.. maelstrom is to be quoted for truth here.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
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Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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Also, a friend of mine found this video yesterday, and I think that seeing this may possibly convince people that the new physics engine for Brawl does have potential.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsoXVD83SMw

Skip forward to 1:10 and watch the box beat up the two players due to some of the shoddiness in the Havok engine. The potential is there, we just need to figure out how to harness it.
 

maelstrom218

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
1,040
Location
Madison, WI
What exactly is stopping Brawl from finding its own techs? Its own type of Wavedash? Its own depth. It is a whole new ballpark, it was a given when we found out it was using a new physics engine. Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 or any stretch of the word Melee. It's a new game, remember the transition from Smash 64 to Melee? No competitive scene in Smash 64, none. And now there is! If a game like Smash 64 can be competitive and have tons of depth (it does as I've seen in videos anyway...) why would Brawl be so... "limiting" as one would say? It's been out only merely a week and I'm positive that a day of playing it doesn't mean anything. You will play Brawl as long as Melee and then one day, someone will find something like they found Wavedashing.
Well, that was the point I was trying to make. There are two aspects to a game that give it depth: the actual game engine itself, and technical glitches--the ones that appear a few years down the road once most of the exploits have been discovered.

My points is that Melee had depth in both areas. The game engine itself was extremely, extremely deep. The technical aspect of Melee that took 6 years to develop was also really, really deep.

Brawl is different. Brawl's game engine--compared to Melee--is relatively shallow. That's because of the absence of any number of things, namely L-cancelling, CC'ing, different falling speeds, and proper edgeguarding games (because of autosweetspotting).

Brawl's technical depth has yet to be determined. But when the basic game engine is (apparently) shallow and you need to rely on glitches in order to give the game depth, then the game in question has issues. Like, for example, Mario Kart DS.

Good, solid competitive games are those where the huge depth of the in-game engine complements its significant technical depth. Think Guilty Gear--so many in-game mechanics, and a lot of its glitches only enhance the gameplay. Conversely, look at Mario Kart DS, where there is very little game-engine depth, but competitive play relies on a single glitch (snaking).

I'll tell you right now, that I'd prefer Guilty Gear over Mario Kart DS any day. My hands hurt after snaking. :ohwell:

And as much optimism as you may have, I can say that my negative reaction is sufficiently justified: no matter how you try to look at it, Brawl's basic in-game engine has been significantly simplified compared to Melee. Denying it or pointing to some amorphous possibility of future advanced techniques is pointless, because the fact remains that Brawl has been simplified.

Edit: If it sounds like I'm being overly negative and bashing Brawl, that's hardly the case. I'm simply pointing out facts. Obviously, when Brawl hits the US, I'm going to play it for about 24 hours straight and have no social life for much longer. . .it's just that from a competitive smasher's perspective, these changes aren't necessarily a good thing.
 

FaceGuy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
135
Then. . .allow me! *appears in poof of smoke*

The point here is that although anything can be done competitively--rock/paper/scissors is a good example--the more simplistic and less depth it has, the more boring it becomes. Sure, you can play rock/paper/scissors [R/P/S] until the cows come home, tourney-style, but would you be willing to travel across the country to participate in a National Championship? Probably not, because the game is boring. It's simplistic.

Now, imagine a new take on the game, which is actually popular in Japan game shows (and was present in Wii Super Monkey Ball): you have 2 opponents (as usual), but in front of both people is a foam hammer and a foam shield. R/P/S is played as normal, but here's the catch: whoever wins that game must seize the hammer and smack the other person on the head. If they manage to do so before the opponent uses the foam shield to protect themselves, the hammer player gets a point. If they fail to hit the opponent on the head because he shielded themselves in time, no points are awarded. Whoever gets the most points wins.

Well, this becomes slightly more interesting now, doesn't it? Now, instead of a one-dimensional plane of play involving mere guessing (R/P/S), you've now added another layer involving reaction time and physical dexterity. The additional rules and point system create more depth, turning this R/P/S hybrid into a multidimensional game. And trust me, this game is A LOT more fun than standard R/P/S. And it's because there's more depth to it.

Now, apply this to the Melee/Brawl situation. We know what Melee is: as SynikaL put it, a (slightly unconventional) fighter in party-game aesthetics. The basic engine itself has quite a bit of depth: L-cancelling, differing falling speeds, crouch-cancelling, DI, an emphasis on edgeguarding. There is also a huge technical element to Melee as well: wavedashing, teching of all kinds, combos. If nothing else, this game is DEEP. The basic game engine as well as the technical aspects create this depth. All is well and good.

Transition to Brawl. Look at how the basic game engine has been stripped away--no more L-cancelling, no more CC'ing, no more different falling speeds. And of course, the technical aspects like combos or wavedashing have been undeniably altered (i.e. now only 2-hit combos) or removed entirely.

What I'm getting at is this: what gave Melee depth--mostly its in-game engine--has been stripped away. Applying this to the R/P/S analogy, imagine that someone came into your group of friends, and demanded that you couldn't play that R/P/S hybrid game anymore--no more shields or hammers. Only old-school mano-a-mano R/P/S. That's what Sakurai's done. He's stripped away the depth of Melee into something altogether different, and from what it seems like now, much more simple and 1-dimensional.

But of course, we only know about the basic game engine of Brawl at this point. Maybe (probably) there'll be glitches discovered that'll add much more technical depth to the game. But surely you can understand a competitive Melee player's negative reaction when they see that Brawl basically stripped away a lot of the depth that Melee had in favor of something decidedly different.

And how many of you actually just skipped to the end of this long post?
That was by far the best post in this thread. Thank you!

I do disagree a little with what you said towards the end though. Yes, a layer of depth has been removed, but from what we've seen I can't believe it's anything like one-dimensional.

The layer that has been removed was not purposefully put into Melee, it was simply taking advantage of glitches and oversights in the physics. Melee was already deep, without teching. Obviously additional depth was added when techs were discovered, but the sudden lack of them doesn't mean the whole game is suddenly shallow. There is still a lot that was put into the game intentionally that can be worked with to be fun.

There seem to be a lot of pro players who are quite elitist about Melee - if you can't tech, you can't compete, and unless a non-techer is playing against another non-techer, that's true. If you don't tech you are very unlikely to be able to compete against someone who does. But in Brawl no-one can tech, so suddenly the playing field is levelled quite a bit. Although it does mean sacrificing a layer of depth, that layer of depth was one that most players didn't find fun or enjoyable, if they even knew about it. It split the fanbase into two - the people who did tech, and the people who didn't, and the ones who didn't didn't stand a chance at beating the ones who did. I'm sure the fact that they couldn't effectively compete and have fun at the same time made the game significantly less fun and more short-lived for them. Even if you are one of the people who did enjoy that layer (as the majority of the people on SWF seem to be), you are in a significant minority in the overall fanbase. It seems only fair that the game was altered to make it more fun for the majority, and now that they should all have a reasonable chance of being able to compete if they want to, for most players it will be more fun, and in fact, more competitive. It doesn't mean just anyone will be able to effectively compete, skill and strategy will still play a big part and will have to be learned. It's just that teching was a huge barrier that was so big that it took the fun out of the game for a lot of people.

Rock-paper-scissors is not a good comparison - it is a gross over-simplification. RPS is purely random, Smash never was.

I think I rambled and repeated myself quite a bit, and I'm sure I wasn't particularly coherent, but hopefully I've managed to get my point across. If anything I said didn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to explain myself better.
 

SonicSmash001

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
102
I don't see how people can make these conclusions before they have the game... competitive or not, this game will rock!
 

Aldwyn McCloud

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
808
Location
My home (in Italy :D)
It seems only fair that the game was altered to make it more fun for the majority, and now that they should all have a reasonable chance of being able to compete if they want to, for most players it will be more fun, and in fact, more competitive.
this point doesn't make any sense to me. If you want a game where people who took the joypad for the first time have chances of beating people who have been working their a$$ off in order to become good at it then you're looking for a party game based on luck, not for a fighting game. Competition is based upon the fact that skills are relevant, and as a result people who dedicate themselves more than others actually deserve to win. Those who as you said didn't find the game fun just because they weren't able to win without proper efforts were total emos. And just in case all of you were wondering the sudden elimination of advanced techs doesn't help newbies become good AT ALL. What will happen now is that Melee players will still have their experience and use it in order to own, while the lack of possibilities in brawl won't allow newbies to find different paths to become good players. Let's consider the transition from 64 to melee for example. A player who was able to combo in 64 would still be good at comboes in Melee, but DI would allow newbies to manage their way out. A player who had a good grab game in 64 would still have a good grab game in melee, but spot dodge would allow the newbies to defend themselves. This was possible because from 64 to Melee they ADDED stuff in order to balance things out. Now from melee to brawl Melee players will have the experience to harass everyone and newcomers won't have proper stuff to stand it out because te techniques were mostly REMOVED.
 

maelstrom218

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
1,040
Location
Madison, WI
Rock-paper-scissors is not a good comparison - it is a gross over-simplification. RPS is purely random, Smash never was.
I'll respond to this part of your post, because the other part discussing how SWF is a small minority of Melee's overall fanbase opens up a huge can of worms that'd I'd rather not disturb. And worms are gross, so. . .let's leave that be.

Actually, R/P/S is a very good example. This may get confusing, so bear with me: you have an attacker and a defender. The attacker is pressuring the defender with a hit-string. The attacker has three options: aerials/overheads, high hits, low hits. The defender can either block high or block low. But here's the catch: (and by >, it means counters/beat outs/etc.)

- aerials/overhead hits > low block

- low hits > high block

- high hits = low and high block (meaning, the attacker is successfully blocked)


In any case, traditional fighters could be simplified into a guessing game of sorts: the attacker has to guess whether or not the defender will block low or high. If he guesses wrong, the attacker doesn't get anything out of it, because his hits are blocked. If he guesses right and gets past the blocking, he nails a hit--and then the pressure string turns into a hit string, gets damage, and can pull off an extended combo, with luck.

So that's what traditional fighters revolved around--will the defender block high or block low? Should I go for an aerial/overhead now, or later? This thought process is what spawned the tactic called "mixup," which is essentially changing your hits from low to high to overheads to confuse the blocker in order to score a hit. Like R/P/S, tradtional fighters involved this whole guessing game, trying to read what the other opponent will do and react to it.

Smash is very much the same thing. Blocking low/high and attacking with aerials/overheads/high hits/low hits are gone, but the concept remains. The majority of Smash is NOT about pummeling your opponent as much as possible to get damage and KO. That's what scrubs do, and that's why they suck.

On the contrary: your object is to force the opponent into an unfavorable situation, where he'll have an extremely limited number of options to respond. With a limited number of responses, you the attacker have a higher probability of successfully guessing what the opponent will do, ESPECIALLY if you have a read on their patterns.

Example: Falcon grabs Fox at 75% near the right edge of Final Destination, then d-throws. That is a GREAT situation for the Falcon to put Fox in, because guess what? Fox has a limited number of reactions, once he's thrown. He can either tech left, tech right, tech in place, or not tech at all. Average players know that not teching is stupid. They also know that if they tech to the right, they'll roll in place because the edge will stop them, making them an open target. So what's left? Teching in place, or teching left.

The Falcon has just put Fox into a situation where he really only has 2 choices. He can now guess a 50-50 chance. Falcon guesses that the Fox will tech left. He shffl's a stomp in that direction. Fox techrolls left, gets stomped. Falcon follows a stomp with a knee. That stock is done.

Obviously this is something of a simplification, but I hope that one point is clear: Smash is all about forcing your opponent into unfavorable situations where they have a limited number of options at their disposal. That way, you have a better chance at guessing what they'll do, and you can take advantage of that. That's why knockdowns are so important in GGXX (with OTG pressure or oki follow-up) and why lockdown in the corner is good in ANY fighting game.

And here's the final point: in Smash, you're trying to get your opponent into that situation where all that's left is a simple guessing game. How you get there is so complex (wavedashing, rushdown, pressure, camping, etc.), but in the end, it always devolves into a a guessing game: will the opponent do this or that?

That's why R/P/S is an apt analogy for Smash: because in the end, both games heavily rely on guessing what the other player will do.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
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this point doesn't make any sense to me. If you want a game where people who took the joypad for the first time have chances of beating people who have been working their a$$ off in order to become good at it then you're looking for a party game based on luck, not for a fighting game. Competition is based upon the fact that skills are relevant, and as a result people who dedicate themselves more than others actually deserve to win. Those who as you said didn't find the game fun just because they weren't able to win without proper efforts were total emos. And just in case all of you were wondering the sudden elimination of advanced techs doesn't help newbies become good AT ALL. What will happen now is that Melee players will still have their experience and use it in order to own, while the lack of possibilities in brawl won't allow newbies to find different paths to become good players. Let's consider the transition from 64 to melee for example. A player who was able to combo in 64 would still be good at comboes in Melee, but DI would allow newbies to manage their way out. A player who had a good grab game in 64 would still have a good grab game in melee, but spot dodge would allow the newbies to defend themselves. This was possible because from 64 to Melee they ADDED stuff in order to balance things out. Now from melee to brawl Melee players will have the experience to harass everyone and newcomers won't have proper stuff to stand it out because te techniques were mostly REMOVED.
So you just said that Melee players would have their previous experience and still kick ***. So, basically all you're complaining about is the lack of advanced tech... because you would still kick *** anyways? Also, lack of advanced tech doesn't exactly "prevent newbs from finding paths to being good players." Newbs can't perform advanced tech in the first place, so the need to work their way up. Sure, they added stuff in Melee for balancing purposes, but what you seem to keep forgetting is that wavedashing, while it is considered advanced tech, is an EXPLOIT that was not intended to be a "balancing" factor of the game. Removal of that type of stuff doesn't matter because newbs don't know how to perform it in the first place.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
The layer that has been removed was not purposefully put into Melee, it was simply taking advantage of glitches and oversights in the physics. Melee was already deep, without teching. Obviously additional depth was added when techs were discovered, but the sudden lack of them doesn't mean the whole game is suddenly shallow. There is still a lot that was put into the game intentionally that can be worked with to be fun.
Actually, it really was. L-canceling was put in melee intentionally, and added a lot of depth. Teching, shorty hopping, edgehogging, edgeguarding, crouch canceling, DI, ASDI, SDI, dash dancing, ect. Were all put into the game with technical depth in mind. They were not oversights in anyway. The only things that can even be described as oversights are wavedashing (although it's suprizing that it wasn't removed in later versions of the game) and all actual glitches (yoyo-glitch, super wavedash, and various other glitches). In case you haven't noticed, every single advance tech that is shared accross the cast, is not a glitch. Calling that an oversight is rediculous.

There seem to be a lot of pro players who are quite elitist about Melee - if you can't tech, you can't compete, and unless a non-techer is playing against another non-techer, that's true. If you don't tech you are very unlikely to be able to compete against someone who does.
So it's bad to learn how to learn to play a game well? So it's bad for people to get better than other people by practicing? So it's bad to have a game that can be played at more than one level?
But in Brawl no-one can tech, so suddenly the playing field is levelled quite a bit. Although it does mean sacrificing a layer of depth, that layer of depth was one that most players didn't find fun or enjoyable, if they even knew about it.
The thing is, all competative players did enjoy it, and if you didn't enjoy that depth, then you had no place trying to enter the competative scene. Is leveling the playing field important enough to strip the game of its fun? That level of depth was fun, and almost every competative player will testify to that. So instead of casuals simply improving, they felt the need to bring us down?
It split the fanbase into two - the people who did tech, and the people who didn't, and the ones who didn't didn't stand a chance at beating the ones who did.
So, what's your point. And those two groups you have are wrong anyway. The groups actually are:
The people who use everything in their disposal to win, and the people who don't. That will still be true in brawl, but the people at the top won't have as much to use. That may make it more fun for you to fight us, but it makes it drastically less fun for us to fight each other.
I'm sure the fact that they couldn't effectively compete and have fun at the same time made the game significantly less fun and more short-lived for them.
For who, casual gamers? Competative players did have fun effectively competing. That's something that you don't seem to get. The game was fun for us beacuase it taxed our minds. It made us not only have to think smart, but fast as well. It also put a whole new layer of options on us to sort through. That's what made the game fun. You may disagree, but you aren't the one that was affected by this change. We were, and it really is a step down in comparison. If closing the gap between us means making the game less fun amoungst ourselves, then may the gap extend for miles. If the advance techniques could simply become easier, and bring casual play up instead, then let the gap be infinitely thin.
Even if you are one of the people who did enjoy that layer (as the majority of the people on SWF seem to be), you are in a significant minority in the overall fanbase.
So we don't matter? Aren't you trying to enter that minority as you so aptly put it? Do you think it will be fun when you get here, when you realize that the maximum potential has been made so low?
It seems only fair that the game was altered to make it more fun for the majority, and now that they should all have a reasonable chance of being able to compete if they want to
If they really want to be competative, then advance techs are nothing to complain about. Their technical difficulty (which they aren't that hard BTW) has nothing to do with why we argue so passionately for them. It's because it adds more options, and thus more depth. More things to think about, a faster paced game that puts stress on you to keep up, this is exactly what the competative smash scene is all about. Isn't that the scene that you aspired to enter? Well, that's not here anymore.
for most players it will be more fun, and in fact, more competitive.
No, it won't be more competative, or more fun based on the removal of advance techs alone. Do you know why? It's because even though you may have a lot of fun entering the tournament scene, you won't be inclined to stay there. The game will get boring faster, because you'll peak faster, because there are less options for you to think about.
It doesn't mean just anyone will be able to effectively compete, skill and strategy will still play a big part and will have to be learned. It's just that teching was a huge barrier that was so big that it took the fun out of the game for a lot of people.
But advance techs added to that skill and strategy. They weren't just button presses, they were tactics, no different than the ability to roll or short hop. Each of them added options that made the game more complex, which is very appealing to competative players. If you don't like the complexities of a game, then you really don't have the competative mindset in the first place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nObA-7mlsls Mindgames=applied techskill+prediction of the opponent. If you take away from the techskill, which is specifically defined as "ability to control your character," then you are directly taking away from the possible mindgames.



Melee was a two story house with the casuals on the first floor and competatives on the second. Both groups were perfectly content with playing amoung themselves. Problems only arised on the "stairs" between them (dificulty of advance techs). Instead of installing an escelator (making advance techs easier to perform, but leaving them there) they simply tore down the top floor. Is that really fair. The gap the stairs brought is gone, but the height the second floor offered is gone as well. Heck I'd take a two story house with a freakin' rope climb over a one story house any day. I wouldn't mind a dificult way up if there was something better upstairs. You just couldn't leave us alone, could you?
 

Poisoncomic2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
17
Why is everyone running around like chickens with their heads cut off? Relax people! When Melee first came out we had a long way to go before finding out how deep the game was. Do not fear the unknown, just play Brawl for a little while just to get used to it, then start trying to see if there is more to Brawl that first meets the eye (which I am sure there will be). Have you seen Ryoko's thread on attack spamming? That should calm some of you down.... those are , I feel, just a taste of some of the things that can only be found out through playing (funny thing is he didn't even need to play, but imagine while actually having it hands on).
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
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1,969
Location
Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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I guess I'll finally inject my personal opinion into this. Frankly, I wouldn't have minded them putting wave-dashing and advanced techs into Brawl. However, the part that does worry me is that because of all the negativity coming from veterans and competitive players, I won't be able to enjoy Brawl knowing that if I ever did want to compete, I would be forced to go back to Melee. Hence, if I main ZSS and want to compete, well, I can't play as ZSS in that tournament. It's discouraging that people are so easy to just throw Brawl away because it's "not competitive" without actually taking time out to play it enough.
 

Aldwyn McCloud

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 23, 2005
Messages
808
Location
My home (in Italy :D)
It's discouraging that people are so easy to just throw Brawl away because it's "not competitive" without actually taking time out to play it enough.
again, nobody's throwing brawl off..

However, the part that does worry me is that because of all the negativity coming from veterans and competitive players, I won't be able to enjoy Brawl knowing that if I ever did want to compete, I would be forced to go back to Melee.
in that case you should just ignore us. As I said we have our opinion. And if you ask me, yeah, competitive brawl won't be as near as competitive Melee

So you just said that Melee players would have their previous experience and still kick ***. So, basically all you're complaining about is the lack of advanced tech... because you would still kick *** anyways?
yes, kicking a$$ won't be a problem. The problem is it's going to be BOOOORING.
 
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