It's hypocritical to support Ganondorf getting his sword yet also support Zelda losing her Light Arrow

[Quillion]

This has always baffled me. A lot of people cheered on the idea of Ganondorf finally getting his sword in Ultimate, on the grounds that it was his "signature weapon" after using some sort of sword in OoT (as Ganon), WW, and TP. And yet at the same time, a lot of people supported the idea of Zelda losing her Light Arrow entirely, despite that being her signature weapon after using it in some form in WW, TP, and ST.

Seriously, there is/was so much talk about Ganondorf getting his signature abilities, to the point that some still want Ganondorf's lightning ball to this day. But Zelda never comes up as a fighter that needs her moves changed on the grounds of lacking her signature abilities, even though the Light Arrow was unequivocally made her signature combat ability.

And before you say, "well Zelda's moveset was fitting to begin with and Ganondorf's wasn't," that is not true. Zelda's moveset is considered to be fitting for her because it portrays her spiritual grace, so by that logic, Ganondorf's old moveset portrayed his overwhelming power, so it was fitting already. And before you say that "Zelda doesn't have much canonical fighting material while Ganondorf does," in OoT, all Ganondorf did was punch the ground and throw energy balls, and the former was accounted for. 1/2 abilities wasn't bad.

It feels unfair that people got so up in arms about making Ganondorf's moveset "more canon" to the point of the developers acquiescing to that demand, but when it was revealed that Zelda lost her Light Arrow, there was no consensus about that being negative for her portrayal. NO ONE even wants the Light Arrow to be reworked as a regular special for Zelda.

If people moved on from Ganondorf's portrayal and started attacking Zelda's portrayal for not having her signature abilities, that would make sense (though I would still argue that having signature abilities isn't that important; see Mario and his lack of a stomp). But the fact that people support BOTH Ganondorf gaining a "signature ability" and Zelda losing hers makes no sense.

 

[Lenidem]

What baffles me is that I've been on this website for something like a year and a half now and I've never seen anyone "support the idea" that Zelda lost her light arrow. But I've seen you complaining about these (imaginary?) people several times.

And if Zelda's moveset is fitting to begin with, it's not (only) because it suits her personality well, it's because it represents the Zelda games well. All of her special moves come from a Zelda game and are instantly recognizable as such, while Ganondorf uses punches and kicks and is the clone of an F-Zero racer... The Dead Man Volley is Ganondorf's most emblematic move. He uses it in Ocarina of Time, his Ganon form in A Link to the Past uses it, Aghanim uses it, his phantoms use it in Ocarina and in Wind Waker, his nightmare-version in Link's Awakening uses it, and other villains in the serie use it. It's a famous move from The Legend of Zelda serie associated with the villains, and especially with Ganon(dorf). But yeah, sure, let's make him punch instead.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What baffles me is that I've been on this website for something like a year and a half now and I've never seen anyone "support the fact" that Zelda lost her light arrow. But I've seen you complaining about these (imaginary?) people several

Yeah, most of the praise for Zelda in Ultimate seems to be about her being cuter or having more efficient moves, not her losing the Light Arrow altogether.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Frankly, I'm more frustrated with the fact that Zelda still runs slower than Sheik's walking. The low overall mobility is one of the reasons why her viability was very bad in Melee, and ranked among the worst in Brawl, and Smash 4.

Ultimate at least made Zelda feel more viable, but that poor running speed is still a rather big drawback for someone who's pretty much a major glass cannon.

With that said, the Light Arrow was more associated with Zelda's Twilight Princess incarnation, so it would not have worked with a Zelda incarnation who never utilized such weaponry.

 

[Lenidem]

Frankly, I'm more frustrated with the fact that Zelda still runs slower than Sheik's walking. The low overall mobility is one of the reasons why her viability was very bad in Melee, and ranked among the worst in Brawl, and Smash 4.

Ultimate at least made Zelda feel more viable, but that poor running speed is still a rather big drawback for someone who's pretty much a major glass cannon.

With that said, the Light Arrow was more associated with Zelda's Twilight Princess incarnation, so it would not have worked with a Zelda incarnation who never utilized such weaponry.

Well, the Phantom is only associated with ''Toon Phantom-Zelda'' and the Wind, Fire and Love are from Ocarina. Zelda also uses the light arrow in Wind Waker. So she could have kept it. But the Triforce Seal suits her very well too, and makes a more impressive show for a final smash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well, the Phantom is only associated with ''Toon Phantom-Zelda'' and the Wind, Fire and Love are from Ocarina. Zelda also uses the light arrow in Wind Waker. So she could have kept it. But the Triforce Seal suits her very well too, and makes a more impressive show for a final smash.

Point taken, and knowing that the Triforce of Wisdom is an instant KO on those who have more than 100% damage means that no amount of knockback modifiers (whether it's from Super Mushrooms, Metal Boxes, or even Launch Rate reductions) can save fighters from being wiped out by that particular Final Smash.

 

[4ZURE]

What baffles me is that I've been on this website for something like a year and a half now and I've never seen anyone "support the idea" that Zelda lost her light arrow. But I've seen you complaining about these (imaginary?) people several times.

Yeah, I have never seen people talk about Zelda this way throughout the entirety of the Smash community. I think op just wants to rant because he loved the original Ganondorf and wants to be right. If I am not mistaken, he is the same guy that says Kirby hasn’t evolved past Super Star whenever people want new content. He likely just wants things to remain the same.

 

[Guynamednelson]

think op just wants to rant because he loved the original Ganondorf and wants to be right.

A lot of Quillion threads are "people don't have the same opinion as me". I agree with the basic concept of "people focus too much on quantity and not quality" but he takes it to mean "Piranha Plant got in so you have to support generic enemies even though Slime was only going to be plan B for Dragon Quest"

 

[4ZURE]

A lot of Quillion threads are "people don't have the same opinion as me". I agree with the basic concept of "people focus too much on quality and not quantity" but he takes it to mean "Piranha Plant got in so you have to support generic enemies even though Slime was only going to be plan B for Dragon Quest"

Which is hypocritical in and of itself as he rants about Bandana Dee.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, the Phantom is only associated with ''Toon Phantom-Zelda'' and the Wind, Fire and Love are from Ocarina. Zelda also uses the light arrow in Wind Waker. So she could have kept it. But the Triforce Seal suits her very well too, and makes a more impressive show for a final smash.

Even moreso, most of her specials are moves never even used by any Zelda as far as I know in the main games. Those were spells used by Link. Light Arrows have also been used by Links, but the Twilight incarnation were specifically only used by TP Zelda at least as opposed to Wind Waker where she just takes Link's. With someone like Zelda though, especially when Melee came out, there wasn't a whole lot to draw from for her.

 

[Lenidem]

Even moreso, most of her specials are moves never even used by any Zelda as far as I know in the main games. Those were spells used by Link. Light Arrows have also been used by Links, but the Twilight incarnation were specifically only used by TP Zelda at least as opposed to Wind Waker where she just takes Link's. With someone like Zelda though, especially when Melee came out, there wasn't a whole lot to draw from for her.

She's also the one who gives the light arrow to Link in Ocarina, so there is a connexion of some sort between her and this special arrow.

And I don't know, I always loved Zelda's moveset. Of all of Link's items and habilities, it's what suits her the best. It's magic, and it's related to the Great Fairies who seem connected to the three godesses. I can easily imagin Zelda doing some kind of secret pilgrimage during the seven years-gap.

 

[Arthur97]

She's also the one who gives the light arrow to Link in Ocarina, so there is a connexion of some sort between her and this special arrow.

And I don't know, I always loved Zelda's moveset. Of all of Link's items and habilities, it's what suits her the best. It's magic, and it's related to the Great Fairies who seem connected to the three godesses. I can easily imagin Zelda doing some kind of secret pilgrimage during the seven years-gap.

Yeah, she has some connection, but to say they are her thing alone is not accurate. I can recall her using some form of light arrows three times. WW where she took Link's (that he just found). TP, where she and she alone used them. Then there's Spirit Tracks where I think she used them in the final boss.

Comparatively, Link has used them in OoT (where they were given by Zelda but never used by her). MM where he just found them. WW where Link found them. Minish Cap where they were an extra. Spirit Tracks once again has a Link using them before Zelda uses them in the final boss. Then, most recently, BotW features light arrows as something Link uses, bestowed by Zelda.

So, Links use them more than Zeldas. That's also not counting their predecessor, the Silver Arrows. They are given by Zeldas twice, used by Zeldas three times (two of which are taken from the respective Link), and in two games have absolutely nothing to do with any Zelda.

On the flip side, few Links have ever wielded the Triforce of Wisdom, and never as the sole piece they had.

As for the spells, yeah, they work for Zelda, and they aren't being used by a Link. Like I said, back in Melee there wasn't too much to go off of, so repurposing some of Link's spells worked.

 

[Lenidem]

in two games have absolutely nothing to do with any Zelda.

Don't you mean three games, if you count the silver arrow?

As for the spells, yeah, they work for Zelda, and they aren't being used by a Link.

They aren't being used by a Link? You mean in Smash?

 

[Arthur97]

Don't you mean three games, if you count the silver arrow?

They aren't being used by a Link? You mean in Smash?

I didn't count silvers as they are something different. If you do, then the count goes up to four as both games they were in did not have a Zelda gifting them, or using them as in the original they were found in the final dungeon, and in ALttP, they were given by a fairy.

And, yeah, I meant in Smash. They weren't being used, so why not put them on Zelda?

Though, as far as FS go, I kind of miss Triforce Slash on Link, but, yeah, that Link doesn't seem to have any piece of the Triforce (it's been claimed that Zelda had the whole thing, but...then why would the game need to take place if she had the power to wish the Calamity away?) so I guess it doesn't fit that Link, but...ancient arrow seems kind of...lack luster.

Would have been amazing if Young Link got Fierce Deity as his. Could have even functioned mostly the same, just had him don the mask. Maybe a different catching move.

 

[Lenidem]

I didn't count silvers as they are something different. If you do, then the count goes up to four as both games they were in did not have a Zelda gifting them, or using them as in the original they were found in the final dungeon, and in ALttP, they were given by a fairy.

And, yeah, I meant in Smash. They weren't being used, so why not put them on Zelda?

Though, as far as FS go, I kind of miss Triforce Slash on Link, but, yeah, that Link doesn't seem to have any piece of the Triforce (it's been claimed that Zelda had the whole thing, but...then why would the game need to take place if she had the power to wish the Calamity away?) so I guess it doesn't fit that Link, but...ancient arrow seems kind of...lack luster.

Would have been amazing if Young Link got Fierce Deity as his. Could have even functioned mostly the same, just had him don the mask. Maybe a different catching move.

Yeah, no Fierce Deity for Young Link's final smash is a crime.

I think there is enough Triforce Slash like that in the game, but yeah, the ancient arrow is kinda meh... Gotta wonder what happened to the Triforce in Breath of the Wild. Is it even mentionned in the game?

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, no Fierce Deity for Young Link's final smash is a crime.

I think there is enough Triforce Slash like that in the game, but yeah, the ancient arrow is kinda meh... Gotta wonder what happened to the Triforce in Breath of the Wild. Is it even mentionned in the game?

As far as I know, it is never confirmed to appear or be mentioned though it could be referenced in something burried in the game somewhere. That said, it's image appeared in a flashback as Zelda stopped some guardians I think. That has led to the theory she had the full Triforce, but, again, that makes no sense as that should have made her more than a match for Calamity Ganon. Nevermind how she would have gotten it as well as been able to hold onto all three pieces. Hopefully they address this in 2 which I already like that they seem to be bringing back Ganondorf.

Yeah, there are several catch and slash FS, but I do think they can be some of the cooler ones anyway. Plus, they could give it that little extra bit where maybe his sword sent out beams for collateral damage. It's also something to set him apart from any other Link.

 

[Lenidem]

As far as I know, it is never confirmed to appear or be mentioned though it could be referenced in something burried in the game somewhere. That said, it's image appeared in a flashback as Zelda stopped some guardians I think. That has led to the theory she had the full Triforce, but, again, that makes no sense as that should have made her more than a match for Calamity Ganon. Nevermind how she would have gotten it as well as been able to hold onto all three pieces. Hopefully they address this in 2 which I already like that they seem to be bringing back Ganondorf.

The Triforce was not always all-powerful. In A Link to the Past, I think it's in the introduction, the Master Sword is said to have been created by Hylians to counter to power of the Triforce, which explains why Link can beat Ganon who has got the whole Triforce.

Yeah, there are several catch and slash FS, but I do think they can be some of the cooler ones anyway. Plus, they could give it that little extra bit where maybe his sword sent out beams for collateral damage. It's also something to set him apart from any other Link.

I was only refering to Toon and Young Link. But yeah, it's very cool-looking!

 

[Khao]

This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. They're completely different scenarios.

Zelda started out with an original moveset. It always fit. It was always good. She never needed anything extra to reflect who she is as a character. She was always ok. She lost her light arrows but.... this is honestly irrelevant considering she gained the Triforce of Wisdom which is equally as fitting. I fail to see how this is a problem. She's used the light arrows like 3 times total accross all her appearances anyway. They're hardly a must-have to her character, especially since they were never used in ALBW, which is where her current design comes from. In either case, Zelda loses her arrows, and she still has an extremely fitting moveset that conveys her personality and style.

Ganondorf was never in remotely the same place. He started out as a clone of Falcon almost entirely because of his body type, and that defined his identity to this day. It's not just that he doesn't have his canon abilities or his signature weapon (the latter, I'd argue he has none anyway) but that he never got a moveset designed for him, his personality or his capabilities. I honestly never gave a **** if they gave him a sword or magic or whatever. I just wanted them to fully rework him to actually represent who he is. The sword in the smashes help, but he still has never been given the opportunity to have a moveset of his own designed from scratch, just tweaks and adjustments to separate him further and further from his source. Also, while the sword "helps", it was hardly necessary and there's still a lot of **** that could be done, especially since they're reverting to his OoT appearance where he was much more of a magician than a swordsman.

Zelda has been in a fine place from the start. Ganondorf still isn't tbh.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

I think people support Zelda not playing like absolute dog**** finally.

 

[Arthur97]

The Triforce was not always all-powerful. In A Link to the Past, I think it's in the introduction, the Master Sword is said to have been created by Hylians to counter to power of the Triforce, which explains why Link can beat Ganon who has got the whole Triforce.

I was only refering to Toon and Young Link. But yeah, it's very cool-looking!

The Master Sword has since been retconned. As it stands, the full Triforce when either assembled or found by someone in balance of the three parts grants a wish (something it did even in ALttP). That wish has been shown to be strong enough to wipe Demise off the face of the planet and to even restore another Triforce. It should have made short work of whatever Calamity Ganon actually was. It also generally doesn't seem to stick around after granting said wish. Ganon may have been more guarding it than using it. It still doesn't answer either how she would have even gathered the full Triforce. So, yeah, I generally chalk that up to that's just how her magic looked not as she had the Triforce which doesn't make much sense.

 

[Lenidem]

The Master Sword has since been retconned. As it stands, the full Triforce when either assembled or found by someone in balance of the three parts grants a wish (something it did even in ALttP). That wish has been shown to be strong enough to wipe Demise off the face of the planet and to even restore another Triforce. It should have made short work of whatever Calamity Ganon actually was.

Maybe the Master Sword and the Triforce have been discretly re-retconned in Breath of the Wild? But yeah, I don't believe either that Zelda got the whole Triforce in Breath of the Wild. Maybe only the Triforce of Wisdom, while the Courage and the Force are still "dormant" within Link and Ganon. Or she just wanted to use her new final smash!

 

[Arthur97]

Maybe the Master Sword and the Triforce have been discretly re-retconned in Breath of the Wild? But yeah, I don't believe either that Zelda got the whole Triforce in Breath of the Wild. Maybe only the Triforce of Wisdom, while the Courage and the Force are still "dormant" within Link and Ganon. Or she just wanted to use her new final smash!

I mean, it's possible, but they're usually kind of blunt with the retcons. Either way, yeah, you'd think it'd be more than strong enough to deal with the Calamity. But, Zelda theorists seem to absolutely love over analyzing things.

 

[Quillion]

What baffles me is that I've been on this website for something like a year and a half now and I've never seen anyone "support the idea" that Zelda lost her light arrow. But I've seen you complaining about these (imaginary?) people several times.

There's definitely an element of "acceptance by inaction" here. The fact that people are being silent about Zelda's Light Arrow being entirely removed means that people support the idea of Zelda not having it.

And if Zelda's moveset is fitting to begin with, it's not (only) because it suits her personality well, it's because it represents the Zelda games well. All of her special moves come from a Zelda game and are instantly recognizable as such, while Ganondorf uses punches and kicks and is the clone of an F-Zero racer... The Dead Man Volley is Ganondorf's most emblematic move. He uses it in Ocarina of Time, his Ganon form in A Link to the Past uses it, Aghanim uses it, his phantoms use it in Ocarina and in Wind Waker, his nightmare-version in Link's Awakening uses it, and other villains in the serie use it. It's a famous move from The Legend of Zelda serie associated with the villains, and especially with Ganon(dorf). But yeah, sure, let's make him punch instead.

Ganon doesn't use it in ALttP. He uses Blazing Bats. Same goes with Nightmare Ganon in LA.

And Link can punch with the Fist and Master Rings in the Oracle duology. So by your logic, punching represents the Zelda games well.

Zelda started out with an original moveset. It always fit. It was always good. She never needed anything extra to reflect who she is as a character. She was always ok. She lost her light arrows but.... this is honestly irrelevant considering she gained the Triforce of Wisdom which is equally as fitting. I fail to see how this is a problem. She's used the light arrows like 3 times total accross all her appearances anyway. They're hardly a must-have to her character, especially since they were never used in ALBW, which is where her current design comes from. In either case, Zelda loses her arrows, and she still has an extremely fitting moveset that conveys her personality and style.

Ganondorf only used some kind of sword twice in Ganondorf form (WW, TP) and once in Ganon form (OoT), three times total, and yet people consider a sword somehow crucial to him.

Ganondorf was never in remotely the same place. He started out as a clone of Falcon almost entirely because of his body type, and that defined his identity to this day. It's not just that he doesn't have his canon abilities or his signature weapon (the latter, I'd argue he has none anyway) but that he never got a moveset designed for him, his personality or his capabilities. I honestly never gave a **** if they gave him a sword or magic or whatever. I just wanted them to fully rework him to actually represent who he is. The sword in the smashes help, but he still has never been given the opportunity to have a moveset of his own designed from scratch, just tweaks and adjustments to separate him further and further from his source. Also, while the sword "helps", it was hardly necessary and there's still a lot of **** that could be done, especially since they're reverting to his OoT appearance where he was much more of a magician than a swordsman.

Sure, Falcondorf came about because of his body type, but they DID rework the moveset to conform to Ganondorf's imposing personality. Besides, it's not like the moveset belongs to Falcon himself; if Ganondorf was in Smash 64 instead of Falcon, it would've been happily accepted.

And I put little stock in the idea of giving Ganondorf a moveset "designed for him" when a canonical moveset would inevitably be too similar to Ike (if a heavy weapon wielder) or Mewtwo (as an energy ball thrower and reflector).

It's far more important that characters fill a niche in the game. That's why Mario doesn't use moves based on every single powerup from the Mario series and is essentially Smash's shoto.

Off-topic:

Which is hypocritical in and of itself as he rants about Bandana Dee.

Just letting you know, I'm fine with Bandanna Dee being a member of a generic species. I'm against him because he brings nothing unique or original to the table.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Zelda is fine.

 

[Quillion]

Zelda is fine.

So was Ganondorf before he got his sword.

 

[Lenidem]

There's definitely an element of "acceptance by inaction" here. The fact that people are being silent about Zelda's Light Arrow being entirely removed means that people support the idea of Zelda not having it.

If we're not with you, then we're against you... Nice mentality.

Ganon doesn't use it in ALttP. He uses Blazing Bats. Same goes with Nightmare Ganon in LA.

Pretty sure you have to reflect his energy ball in both games.

And Link can punch with the Fist and Master Rings in the Oracle duology. So by your logic, punching represents the Zelda games well.

No, that's your logic, not mine. "Ganondorf punched the ground once, so all he should do is punching people."

Ganondorf only used some kind of sword twice in Ganondorf form (WW, TP) and once in Ganon form (OoT), three times total, and yet people consider a sword somehow crucial to him.

Maybe the people in your head do, but nobody here said it is "crucial".

And like A Arthur97 said, Zelda only uses the light arrows twice...

Sure, Falcondorf came about because of his body type, but they DID rework the moveset to conform to Ganondorf's imposing personality.

They did the bare minimum.

Besides, it's not like the moveset belongs to Falcon himself; if Ganondorf was in Smash 64 instead of Falcon, it would've been happily accepted.

You're such a powerful psychic! You read people's mind in a situation that never happened! I don't have your talent so I only speak for myself, but I know that I wouldn't have loved this Ganondorf even if he had arrived before Falcon. Small reminder: in Ocarina of Time, he confronts Link twice. The first time, when he's a child, he sends him to the ground with a punch - oh wait, no, with a blast of energy. The second time, he attacks him with his fists - oh no, wait, he attacks him from afar by spamming energy balls. And his fantom does the exact same thing earlier. He only confronts Link in close-combat after his transformation into Ganon.

And I put little stock in the idea of giving Ganondorf a moveset "designed for him" when a canonical moveset would inevitably be too similar to Ike (if a heavy weapon wielder) or Mewtwo (as an energy ball thrower and reflector).

So I guess Mewtwo is too similar to Mario and Fox, because those are the original "projectile + reflector"...

So was Ganondorf before he got his sword.

The sword changes almost nothing.

 

[meleebrawler]

Going by the standards of Melee, even if they hadn't cloned Ganondorf from Falcon he still would have used far more fisticuffs than officially depicted.

Beyond finding Dead Man's Volley's significance overrated and wanting better flight capabilities with this incarnation has been shown to have, I don't have any preference as to what he uses. Whether Ganondorf favors ranged or close combat varies a lot, but I do notice his movement has pretty consistently been slow and deliberate in gameplay.

 

[Quillion]

If we're not with you, then we're against you... Nice mentality.

I still have no reason to believe that people are against Zelda losing her Light Arrow. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

Pretty sure you have to reflect his energy ball in both games.

Yes, Ganon does Dead Man's Volley as Agahnim only. Once he assumes his true form, though, he abandons it. Proof A. Proof B.

No, that's your logic, not mine. "Ganondorf punched the ground once, so all he should do is punching people."

Well why do you accept the fact that Zelda can use the Goddess Spells just because Link can in one game? Can't you just accept that Ganondorf can punch just because Link can in two?

Maybe the people in your head do, but nobody here said it is "crucial".

Then if it's not crucial, it shouldn't be in his moveset. It warped his portrayal and playstyle way too much to a number of people that's too significant to ignore.

And like A Arthur97 said, Zelda only uses the light arrows twice...

I count one, two, three.

They did the bare minimum.

Meticulously redoing his animations to resemble moves he did in certain games is not "bare minimum" by any stretch.

You're such a powerful psychic! You read people's mind in a situation that never happened! I don't have your talent so I only speak for myself, but I know that I wouldn't have loved this Ganondorf even if he had arrived before Falcon. Small reminder: in Ocarina of Time, he confronts Link twice. The first time, when he's a child, he sends him to the ground with a punch - oh wait, no, with a blast of energy. The second time, he attacks him with his fists - oh no, wait, he attacks him from afar by spamming energy balls. And his fantom does the exact same thing earlier. He only confronts Link in close-combat after his transformation into Ganon.

Look, people don't mind Mario not having his signature stomp, despite that being his most used move in his games. A character having the moves they used most in a game isn't as important as you think.

So I guess Mewtwo is too similar to Mario and Fox, because those are the original "projectile + reflector"...

The problem is that people want Ganondorf's canonical magic moves to incidentally be EXACTLY AND SPECIFICALY like Mewtwo's. They want an energy ball that can be charged up to be more powerful, a non-held reflector, and a teleport. That's 3/4 moves that are similar to Mewtwo.

And quit stretching. Mario's fireball is weak and can't be charged and Fox's projectile isn't an energy ball and his reflector can be held. There is NO WAY imaginable to make Ganondorf's magic-based attacks both canonical and different from Mewtwo's.

The sword changes almost nothing.

Smash attacks are almost as emblematic as specials due to their positions as powerful finishers. His elbow and kicks were too fun to let go of.

 

[Koopaul]

While Ganondorf uses punches and kicks and is the clone of an F-Zero racer...

When you really think about it, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon both got the same treatment. Falcon's moveset wasn't made for him. It was designed for a generic fighter early in Smash 64's development. It was given to Captain Falcon because they had similar body types. Hm... That sounds familiar.

Basically this moveset is a stock fighter moveset for characters with regular ol' human body. It was about as faithful to Falcon's character as it is to Ganondorf.

 

[Arthur97]

If we're not with you, then we're against you... Nice mentality.

Pretty sure you have to reflect his energy ball in both games.

No, that's your logic, not mine. "Ganondorf punched the ground once, so all he should do is punching people."

Maybe the people in your head do, but nobody here said it is "crucial".

And like A Arthur97 said, Zelda only uses the light arrows twice...

They did the bare minimum.

You're such a powerful psychic! You read people's mind in a situation that never happened! I don't have your talent so I only speak for myself, but I know that I wouldn't have loved this Ganondorf even if he had arrived before Falcon. Small reminder: in Ocarina of Time, he confronts Link twice. The first time, when he's a child, he sends him to the ground with a punch - oh wait, no, with a blast of energy. The second time, he attacks him with his fists - oh no, wait, he attacks him from afar by spamming energy balls. And his fantom does the exact same thing earlier. He only confronts Link in close-combat after his transformation into Ganon.

So I guess Mewtwo is too similar to Mario and Fox, because those are the original "projectile + reflector"...

The sword changes almost nothing.

She uses them three times actually, but the point still stands.

Also, in ALttP, you didn't reflect anything as Ganon, but you did for the wizard whose name I shall not try to spell who was, well, Ganon. Or at least someone possessed by Ganon.

 

[Lenidem]

I still have no reason to believe that people are against Zelda losing her Light Arrow. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

You're not really reading what I wrote. I never said people were "against Zelda losing her Light Arrow", I said that most people didn't care about that for several reasons.

Yes, Ganon does Dead Man's Volley as Agahnim only. Once he assumes his true form, though, he abandons it. Proof A. Proof B.

Ok, thank you. Guess I haven't played A Link to the Past for too long.

Well why do you accept the fact that Zelda can use the Goddess Spells just because Link can in one game? Can't you just accept that Ganondorf can punch just because Link can in two?

It's quiete easy to understand, really.

Who can use Din's Fire, Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love except Link? Absolutely no one. These are original Zelda moves.
Who can punch and kick except Ganondorf? Absolutely every human being since the dawn of time, in fiction and in reality. It's not tied to Zelda at all.

Then if it's not crucial, it shouldn't be in his moveset. It warped his portrayal and playstyle way too much to a number of people that's too significant to ignore.

As far as I can tell, this "number of people too significant to ignore" is one. And every single character in Smash (except maybe Mr Game & Watch) has "not crucial" stuff in his moveset.

I count one, two, three.

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot Spirit Tracks that I never finished. Anyway, I agree that the light arrows are somehow tied to Zelda. But so is the Triforce of Wisdom. So she didn't loose a reference, she traded one for another.

Meticulously redoing his animations to resemble moves he did in certain games

is not "bare minimum" by any stretch.

I believe it is, yes. Even now, Ganondorf is almost as close to Falcon as Luigi is to Mario. And those two are sibblings from the same games in which they play almost exactly the same...

Look, people don't mind Mario not having his signature stomp, despite that being his most used move in his games. A character having the moves they used most in a game isn't as important as you think.

I believe it is. Mario still has other moves that belong only to him and/or to his games, like FLUDD and the fire ball, and his very unique way to jump.

The problem is that people want Ganondorf's canonical magic moves to incidentally be EXACTLY AND SPECIFICALY like Mewtwo's. They want an energy ball that can be charged up to be more powerful, a non-held reflector, and a teleport. That's 3/4 moves that are similar to Mewtwo.

You keep pretending to know what people want even though nobody expressed that. I never heard anyone wanting Ganondorf to teleport or insisting that his energy ball should absolutely be charged, or that he absolutely should have a reflector. Let alone that he should absolutely have those three together.

And quit stretching. Mario's fireball is weak and can't be charged and Fox's projectile isn't an energy ball and his reflector can be held. There is NO WAY imaginable to make Ganondorf's magic-based attacks both canonical and different from Mewtwo's.

No way imaginable for you, perhaps.

Smash attacks are almost as emblematic as specials due to their positions as powerful finishers. His elbow and kicks were too fun to let go of.

Too fun for you. That's not a fact. That's not a general statement. That's just your own personal taste.

She uses them three times actually, but the point still stands.

Also, in ALttP, you didn't reflect anything as Ganon, but you did for the wizard whose name I shall not try to spell who was, well, Ganon. Or at least someone possessed by Ganon.

Yep, my mistakes.

When you really think about it, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon both got the same treatment. Falcon's moveset wasn't made for him. It was designed for a generic fighter early in Smash 64's development. It was given to Captain Falcon because they had similar body types. Hm... That sounds familiar.

Basically this moveset is a stock fighter moveset for characters with regular ol' human body. It was about as faithful to Falcon's character as it is to Ganondorf.

Not really. Captain Falcon is from a race game so all there was to do with him is trying to translate the speed and the agressivity of F-Zero, and (I think) they did it well. They didn't have much material to draw from. But Ganondorf is very different. He is not a blank slate. He's like Bowser: you confront him in the games, you see him actually move and attack. The least you can do with him is to create a moveset inspired by his boss fight.

 

[Quillion]

You're not really reading what I wrote. I never said people were "against Zelda losing her Light Arrow", I said that most people didn't care about that for several reasons.

That's still hypocritical. I still don't get why people care so hard about Ganondorf to the point of ruining the fun of his Smashes while not caring at all about Zelda not having her specials altered.

It's quiete easy to understand, really.

Who can use Din's Fire, Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love except Link? Absolutely no one. These are original Zelda moves.
Who can punch and kick except Ganondorf? Absolutely every human being since the dawn of time, in fiction and in reality. It's not tied to Zelda at all.

So you're saying Little Mac shouldn't punch because it's not unique enough to him? I don't really get this argument.

Ganondorf's punching portrays his overwhelming power better than any sword or magic move can. That's why the sword was unnecessary.

As far as I can tell, this "number of people too significant to ignore" is one. And every single character in Smash (except maybe Mr Game & Watch) has "not crucial" stuff in his moveset.

Characters not having crucial stuff in their movesets says a lot about how little having signature abilities matters.

You keep pretending to know what people want even though nobody expressed that. I never heard anyone wanting Ganondorf to teleport or insisting that his energy ball should absolutely be charged, or that he absolutely should have a reflector. Let alone that he should absolutely have those three together.

The Mage form mod moveset for Ganondorf ended up having a charged energy ball, reflector, and teleport. Heck it even has PM Mewtwo's float! I think that says a lot about people wanting to have Ganondorf be like Mewtwo.

Not really. Captain Falcon is from a race game so all there was to do with him is trying to translate the speed and the agressivity of F-Zero, and (I think) they did it well. They didn't have much material to draw from. But Ganondorf is very different. He is not a blank slate. He's like Bowser: you confront him in the games, you see him actually move and attack. The least you can do with him is to create a moveset inspired by his boss fight.

"We see Zelda move and attack with a bow. The least you can do with her is to at least make her Light Arrow her Neutral-B."

 

[Lenidem]

Here we go again...

That's still hypocritical. I still don't get why people care so hard about Ganondorf to the point of ruining the fun of his Smashes while not caring at all about Zelda not having her specials altered.

First, just because you don't understand a reasoning doesn't make it "hypocretical".
Second, you're the only one here who think that Ganondorf's smashes are "ruined", everybody else enjoys it at least as much as before. I know, it's very hard to get. But that alone explains why people don't complain about the sword.
Third, for God sake, just read what I wrote: everybody loves Zelda's specials for plenty of reasons.

So you're saying Little Mac shouldn't punch because it's not unique enough to him? I don't really get this argument.

I know you're doing it on purpose, but I will explain it slowly:

Little Mac is a boxer. All he does in his game is punching people.
Ganondorf is a magician. His main attack is an energy ball.

Those two. Are. Very. Different.

Ganondorf's punching portrays his overwhelming power better than any sword or magic move can. That's why the sword was unnecessary.

You know Ganondorf still punches, right? Like, with standard B? So why couldn't he do something else too? And do you know where "his overwhelming power" comes from in The Legend of Zelda : Ocarina of Time? From his magic. Yeah, I know, unbelievable. When he faces young Link, he blasts him just by raising his hand. How does that not "portray his overwhelming power"? You know what he does the next time they meet? He flies in the airs and sends energy balls, and you have to find a way to get close. At no point does he punches the player.

We get it, you love Melee's Ganondorf. To the point you believe he makes a better Ganondorf than the one from the Zelda serie. But don't pretend that it's a good portrayal of the character. Or keeping pretending, I don't care.

Characters not having crucial stuff in their movesets says a lot about how little having signature abilities matters.

It says that as long as some signature abilities are there, it doesn't matter if not everything is from the source material.

The Mage form mod moveset for Ganondorf

ended up having a charged energy ball, reflector, and teleport. Heck it even has PM Mewtwo's float! I think that says a lot about people wanting to have Ganondorf be like Mewtwo.

Don't know where this if from, and really don't care. Because first, it's only the point of view of the people who made this mod. Go argue with them. Here, you're not talking with them, but with us (and mainly me, it seems). Second, if it's just a mod like the name says, it HAS to be based on an already existing character...

"We see Zelda move and attack with a bow. The least you can do with her is to at least make her Light Arrow her Neutral-B."

But we see her do other stuffs as well, stuff only she can do, like using the Triforce of Wisdom or manipulate an armor, and she can do it in Smash. So. It is. Very. Different.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think Ganon should get a Trident and some sort of Energy ball

and the Light Arrow i dont know i think Link should use it as his final Smash instead of Ancient Arrows

Zelda Maybe Forward Smash?

 

[Oddball]

Just because people want a change for one character and ot for another doesn't make it hypocritical. You wouldn't say it was hypocritical if somebody said they thought Mario should keep his fire flower alt but thought Samus's color choices were fine, would you?

 

[Janx_uwu]

I've never heard someone call for Zelda to lose her Light Arrow. I think her current Final Smash is fine. Triforce of Wisdom is arguably a bigger part of her character than Light Arrows. But I'd be cool with her getting it as a forward smash or something.
However, I do think other characters like Mario and Sonic more desperately need a rework.

 

[HARBlNGER]

I won't really speak for Zelda other than her running speed should be buffed a bit. If Sakurai ever decides to update Zelda's moveset with the Light Arrow then cool.

As for Ganondorf, what personally want for him is to have more aerial mobility, Peach's float mechanic, and the cape reflect and energy ball as new specials only used in the air (dead man volley and the cape as aerial neutral-b and side-b respectively). It wouldn't really matter to me if Ganondorf had the teleport or not as long as I can act out his recovery and float back to the stage. And again I'm only speaking for myself on what I'd like to see updated for these characters. If it happens it happens.

 

[Quillion]

Just because people want a change for one character and ot for another doesn't make it hypocritical. You wouldn't say it was hypocritical if somebody said they thought Mario should keep his fire flower alt but thought Samus's color choices were fine, would you?

It actually does. Anti-Falcondorf fans largely argue that because the other characters are portrayed faithfully, Ganondorf should get the same luxury, even though there are quite a bit of characters missing their iconic elements.

I've never heard someone call for Zelda to lose her Light Arrow. I think her current Final Smash is fine. Triforce of Wisdom is arguably a bigger part of her character than Light Arrows. But I'd be cool with her getting it as a forward smash or something.
However, I do think other characters like Mario and Sonic more desperately need a rework.

What's wrong with Mario and Sonic? The only things I can see for those two is for Mario to get his Goomba Stomp while Sonic gets something that isn't a second Spin Dash, but that's hardly a "rework".

 

[Janx_uwu]

What's wrong with Mario and Sonic? The only things I can see for those two is for Mario to get his Goomba Stomp while Sonic gets something that isn't a second Spin Dash, but that's hardly a "rework".

Mario has had the same moveset for a long time now without a single change. I'm not asking for a ton, but some elements from games past Sunshine would be nice to see in his moveset.
Sonic is much more offensive to me. Most of his moveset is from some obscure fighting game no one played. There's so much more you could be representing yet you chose that of all things? They should be pulling from a larger portion of games-there's no shortage of moveset potential there. Plus his playstyle revolves around waiting for his opponent to do a laggy option and then spindash, which isn't at all what the games are about.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mario has had the same moveset for a long time now without a single change. I'm not asking for a ton, but some elements from games past Sunshine would be nice to see in his moveset.
Sonic is much more offensive to me. Most of his moveset is from some obscure fighting game no one played. There's so much more you could be representing yet you chose that of all things? They should be pulling from a larger portion of games-there's no shortage of moveset potential there. Plus his playstyle revolves around waiting for his opponent to do a laggy option and then spindash, which isn't at all what the games are about.

Waiting for Eggman to do something stupid and then punish him for it describes 70% of the fights with him. Also very ironically, the best strategy to use against Shadow in the final level of Adventure 2. Also, pretty much all of Sonic's more "unique" moves are circumstancial, require outside assistance, or in the case of Boosting, can be simulated easily enough with a Run Impact spirit.

And unless you want more versions of Mario to surpass the number of Links, it's more efficient to split the Mario game representation between the different ones, like having Rosalina in charge of Galaxy references.