It would be really cool if Ganondorf had a Phantom Ganondorf alt

[FartyParty]

Like that would be totally sweet. Even better would be a Phantom Ganondorf echo fighter that's all floaty like Dark Samus. Get on it Nintendo!!

 

[Downshift]

What if it traded Warlock Punch for a Reflector move like Phantom Ganon used in Oot?

 

[FartyParty]

What if it traded Warlock Punch for a Reflector move like Phantom Ganon used in Oot?

That would be cool or give the echo Phantom Ganon that projectile it uses in the OoT Forest Temple.

 

[Downshift]

What move(s) would you replace?
I'd replace the Side B flame choke grab for the energy ball projectile and neutral B warlock punch for the reflector.

I think a newer version of PM did something like this with a "Mage Ganon" build.

 

[FartyParty]

What move(s) would you replace?
I'd replace the Side B flame choke grab for the energy ball projectile and neutral B warlock punch for the reflector.

I think a newer version of PM did something like this with a "Mage Ganon" build.

That would basically be perfect. And obviously floatiness. Gliding over the level for movement, slow fall speed. Perhaps also Phantom Ganondorf's recovery move should be less powerful but have better range since he won't have the side b for horizontal recovery.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Never, EVER, replace Flame Choke.

 

[Downshift]

Never, EVER, replace Flame Choke.

What would you want for his specials then?

We only get 4:

• Warlock Punch
• Wizard's Foot
• Dark Dive (Recovery)
• *Flame Choke (Command Grab)
• Mage Cape (Reflector)
• Phantom Ball (Projectile)

If I HAD to keep Flame Choke, I'd trade the Wizard's Foot for the Projectile (if it did similar damage) and the Falcon Warlock Punch for the Reflector. We'll still have UpTilt.
The Reflector is just to important to combat Ganon's main weakness in getting projectile camped out by nearly half the roster.

 

[Boartobewild]

What would you want for his specials then?

We only get 4:

• Warlock Punch
• Wizard's Foot
• Dark Dive (Recovery)
• *Flame Choke (Command Grab)
• Mage Cape (Reflector)
• Phantom Ball (Projectile)

If I HAD to keep Flame Choke, I'd trade the Wizard's Foot for the Projectile (if it did similar damage) and the Falcon Warlock Punch for the Reflector. We'll still have UpTilt.
The Reflector is just to important to combat Ganon's main weakness in getting projectile camped out by nearly half the roster.

Well well, that's very easy to answer, you replace the two weakest links in his moveset those being Warlock punch and Dark dive. Don't get me wrong, Dark dive is finally an usable and viable killoption, but as a recovery it's still very suboptimal. If it had to stay it would be cool if one could manually transition earlier into the uppercut portion of the attack and also better adjust how far or high the attack goes.

Also did you just say we can change Warlock punch bc we still have Volcano kick?! If there is one move that needs to go, it's that one. You might land U-tilt a lot more often on the ledge than you would Warlock punch, but that still doesn't change the fact that every other edgeguarding option is more likely to work/land consistently! The only way I would be ok with keeping that move would be as an F-smash. Otherwise, could we please get an actual fairly quick and functional anti-air, which also reliably hits crouching opponents?

As for what current N-b and Up-b should be replaced by, I'd really prefer P.M Cape reflect/hover over a Deadman's volley projectile honestly, but if the later were to come true, it would be awesome, if either the hover or reflect could be worked in as well. As for what could possibly become his new recovery, the answer is fairly simple and predictable, a teleport. This could be something similair to his entrance portal animation, or like the phantom sneak strike, so basically very close to Meta knight's dimensional cape.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

What would you all think about Deadman's volley becoming the new up-b, since he usually uses it while hovering? I could see it starting the same as Dark Dive, but holding a disjointed energy ball that would function a bit like Roy's sword, releasing the ball at the top in one of maybe 3 directions or canceling at the ledge. The grounded version might not go as high, I don't know.

If we got Phantom Ganon, I would want the Wind Waker version more than Ocarina's, but that wouldn't really work as an alt or an echo fighter, so it would have to be a huge overhaul to make it work. Every kick attack would probably need to be replaced. Phantom Ganon wouldn't work as a bruiser as well as his creator anyway, so it would be a win-win, honestly.

 

[Xinc]

imo:

Jab can reflect
Special can do that magic orb
keep other moves

 

[Diddy Kong]

Or what about a Phantom Ganon Down B attack which is cloned from Zelda's Phantom? Bet you never thought about that, did you?

 

[Boartobewild]

Or what about a Phantom Ganon Down B attack which is cloned from Zelda's Phantom? Bet you never thought about that, did you?

I think that is the case bc it's not a move or concept that fits Ganon all that much. I'm not sure how much you know about Zelda games/lore, but the Phantom, which Zelda uses, coincidentally comes from two titles (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) where Ganon is entirely absent. I assume you came up with that Idea just bc they share the term Phantom, didn't you?

Well the Phantom ganon alt, which this thread is reffering to, is basically a recurring Miniboss from other titles, that is best described as a mirage or shadow familiar of Ganon, or just the rather appropiate name it's was already bestowed. Imagine it like a remote stand (fighting ghost/spirit), who is supossed to carry just a portion of Ganon's power.

The "Zelda" Phantom meanwhile is unfortunately misnamed, I think they just thought Phantom sounded cooler or more menancing, but functionally they are (mostly) invincible Guardians. Which is doubly ironic considering there are other invincible sentry type enemies, which are called just that in Skyward sword.

Zelda has this move bc in ST, she literally takes over those indestructable, wandering, possesed suits of armor, as a consequence of having lost her body and being a wandering spirit that wants to help Link get her body back. (Fullmetal alchemist, anyone?)

Aside from that, it's not a move which would fit current Ganon all that well, both from a playstyle and lore perspective. He needs and benefits from Wizkick far more and a slow charging projectile, wouldn't help him all that much I feel.

Canon wise though, funnily enough there is actually one attack that would fit and mirror the use of Zelda's phantom better than her current one does. It's during the 3rd phase of Tp Ganon's fight, where you chase each other on horse back and he summons 6 ghostly Riders in order to knock you off Epona.

That is a very situational one time occurence though and there is a good reason why everyone wants to replace Warlock punch with Deadman's volley instead.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think that is the case bc it's not a move or concept that fits Ganon all that much. I'm not sure how much you know about Zelda games/lore, but the Phantom, which Zelda uses, coincidentally comes from two titles (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) where Ganon is entirely absent. I assume you came up with that Idea just bc they share the term Phantom, didn't you?

Well the Phantom ganon alt, which this thread is reffering to, is basically a recurring Miniboss from other titles, that is best described as a mirage or shadow familiar of Ganon, or just the rather appropiate name it's was already bestowed. Imagine it like a remote stand (fighting ghost/spirit), who is supossed to carry just a portion of Ganon's power.

The "Zelda" Phantom meanwhile is unfortunately misnamed, I think they just thought Phantom sounded cooler or more menancing, but functionally they are (mostly) invincible Guardians. Which is doubly ironic considering there are other invincible sentry type enemies, which are called just that in Skyward sword.

Zelda has this move bc in ST, she literally takes over those indestructable, wandering, possesed suits of armor, as a consequence of having lost her body and being a wandering spirit that wants to help Link get her body back. (Fullmetal alchemist, anyone?)

Aside from that, it's not a move which would fit current Ganon all that well, both from a playstyle and lore perspective. He needs and benefits from Wizkick far more and a slow charging projectile, wouldn't help him all that much I feel.

Canon wise though, funnily enough there is actually one attack that would fit and mirror the use of Zelda's phantom better than her current one does. It's during the 3rd phase of Tp Ganon's fight, where you chase each other on horse back and he summons 6 ghostly Riders in order to knock you off Epona.

That is a very situational one time occurence though and there is a good reason why everyone wants to replace Warlock punch with Deadman's volley instead.

I played tons of Zelda games, old and new. But still, the Phantom Ganon matches the build of Zelda's Phantom. Doesn't matter if Ganondorf never used it like that, neither did TP or ALBW / ALTTP Zelda.

 

[FartyParty]

I played tons of Zelda games, old and new. But still, the Phantom Ganon matches the build of Zelda's Phantom. Doesn't matter if Ganondorf never used it like that, neither did TP or ALBW / ALTTP Zelda.

I'm just gonna be blunt here. If Phantom Ganon were added to the game, giving him Zelda's Phantom attack would be stupid. It doesn't fit the Ganondorf lore, it doesn't fit the character, it wouldn't mesh with the moveset. It's a bad idea, especially with more appropriate options available that could be taken directly from the actual Phantom Ganondorf boss fights in OoT and Wind Waker. There's no need (or benefit) to shoehorning in an attack the character has no connection to from their actual appearances.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Technically, in Four Swords Phantom Ganon splits into 3 clones, so a Zelda-esque move actually wouldn't be terribly off base if he was creating another copy of himself instead of a separate entity. I would want it to function differently, though. I'm thinking something like Krillin in Dragon Ball Fighterz or Forsburn in Rivals of Aether, where the clone could be set up to confuse or as a way to bounce the volley around. It would help to make the character trickier, which would be needed with the focus on a slow, returnable projectile.

There are a lot of moves from the rest of the cast that could be borrowed to make development easier, too. I could see Dedede's gordo toss being used as a starting place for deadman's volley. They could also pull from Greninja's shadow sneak as a nod to Phantom Ganon passing through the paintings in OoT. Adding those already starts to differentiate the phantom's playstyle from Ganon.