Isabelle is not a semi-clone

[MacDaddyNook]

If they share any moves, and aren't an echo, they're a semi-clone. You can argue how "semi" a clone they are, but they're still a semi-clone.

I agree. Semi-Clone is a very broad term that covers a wide level of clone-ness. Luigi has always been a Semi-Clone but continues to be more unique each installment, however, despite his changes, he still shares much of with the Mario moveset he derived from. Isabelle certainly fits in the Semi-Clone definition, but she is more on the unique side (aka later-Luigi) of definition.

 

[Bowserlick]

Isabelle uses Villager as a template.

Don't just look at moves, but properties. Are her stats roughly the same?

If her stats are roughly the same and she uses moves and combination of moves such as Villager, calling her a semi-clone seems fair.
Remember semi-clones are called semi-clones in order to mark a difference from traditional clones.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

I don't see the community running away from the term "Luigified" anytime soon, but I would welcome it.

Also, I'm sure most of the echo/clone/newcomer debate could be cleared up with a simple side-by-side comparison video. Echoes borrow everything, even from multiple characters, clones have different traits like stats and size, and the semi-clones/Luigified clones have unique moves.

Echo Fighters do have different properties on their moves, and maybe even the passive ability. They aren’t reskins.

Think about it as Splatoon weapons. Dark Pit would be a Deco version of Pit. Pretty much the same with moderate differences that make one preferable over the other.

 

[DBPirate]

She has several moves that are similar to Villager's, like her dash attack and neutral special, but I really don't think there's a point of classifying characters into different clone statuses anymore. There is now Echo or non-Echo.

The semi-clones Wolf, Luigi, and Lucas are all considered unique characters and not clones by the standards of Ultimate so Isabelle should be considered one too.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Echo Fighters are classed by having the same/almost the same basic attack animations, and basic stats like walk/run speed.

I bet Isabelle will fit the latter but NOT the former, and her move ultility looks so different.

 

[Funktastic]

The most important question is: Will Isabelle have Slingshot like Villager? I have a friend who plays Villager and the only reason he can compete is the damn slingshot (which he uses constantly). I think it's safe to say she's "Luigified" but this one move will determine whether she's a fun add or a character I'll be picking up to combat the dead eye'd children.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Isabelle seems to be the Wolf to Villager's Fox.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I think this is a pretty good analysis: https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=User:Toomai/Cloneosity&oldid=693171

It's based only on moves and move animations, and not things like physics, so it might be a little inaccurate. But it seems like Luigi in 64, the six last-minute clones in Melee, and the three last-minute clones in SSB4 are supposed to be the "true clones". The rest are semi-clones, besides Wolf, who is considered unique. There do seem to be different "levels" of semi-clone, but I'm not sure how useful it would be to categorize them separately, unless we get some clones or semi-clones in the "grey areas" (30-40% and 80-90%) later on.

 

[Teeb147]

I think we need to see the rest of her move, cuz the rest of the tilts and aerials are pretty important. Once we know we can say how unique she is.
Really curious.

 

[Xigger]

I think this is a pretty good analysis: https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=User:Toomai/Cloneosity&oldid=693171

It's based only on moves and move animations, and not things like physics, so it might be a little inaccurate. But it seems like Luigi in 64, the six last-minute clones in Melee, and the three last-minute clones in SSB4 are supposed to be the "true clones". The rest are semi-clones, besides Wolf, who is considered unique. There do seem to be different "levels" of semi-clone, but I'm not sure how useful it would be to categorize them separately, unless we get some clones or semi-clones in the "grey areas" (30-40% and 80-90%) later on.

That post is really interesting! It details how Wolf and Lucas are more unique than Luigi ever was.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Isabelle's not even a Wolf. She has two specials with completely different usage scenarios. and one special that looks very different but is a similar type.

 

[Uffe]

Semi-clone, not that there is anything wrong with that. I would define a semi-clone as a character who has more differences in abilities than what is the same. Thinking about this earlier, Luigi actually has seven of the same moves as Mario. Those are up air, back air, neutral air, fireball, even though one bounces and the other doesn't. I'm not taking properties into consideration here. Up B, down smash, and up smash. Out of those seven moves, Luigi is different in other areas when it comes to attacks.

Isabelle in comparison to Villager so far:

Green - Different
Red - Same

Grab - Net
Dash Attack - Tripping and falling
U-tilt - Broomstick
F-smash - Party Popper
D-smash - Splashing a bucket full of water
B - Pocket
Up B - Balloon Trip
Forward B - Fishing Rod (Looks like a command grab)
Down B - Lloid Rocket
Nair - Cheer Pompoms
Final Smash - Town Hall (Different building being built, but still the same as Villager's)

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Semi-clone, not that there is anything wrong with that. I would define a semi-clone as a character who has more differences in abilities than what is the same. Thinking about this earlier, Luigi actually has seven of the same moves as Mario. Those are up air, back air, neutral air, fireball, even though one bounces and the other doesn't. I'm not taking properties into consideration here. Up B, down smash, and up smash. Out of those seven moves, Luigi is different in other areas when it comes to attacks.

Isabelle in comparison to Villager so far:

Green - Different
Red - Same

Grab - Net
Dash Attack - Tripping and falling
U-tilt - Broomstick
F-smash - Party Popper
D-smash - Splashing a bucket full of water
B - Pocket
Up B - Balloon Trip
Forward B - Fishing Rod (Looks like a command grab)
Down B - Lloid Rocket
Nair - Cheer Pompoms
Final Smash - Town Hall (Different building being built, but still the same as Villager's)

Up B seems to have different properties and a different hitbox.

Lots of characters share dash attacks. Isabelle’s one might even have a different property.

Final Smash has a larger blast radius.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Stop sign is her up smash and the hammer in one of her screenshots is probably ftilt or jab. That's more moves different from Villager.

 

[NotLiquid]

Her down special honestly just seems like a variation of the counter sapling. It just blows up rather than tripping you.

Given that all the semi-clones have some notable spins on the moves they've inherited in spite of visual resemblance it seems rather silly to not refer to her as such, especially when she shares at least four moves that are essentially identical. If anything like her d-tilt, f-air, u-air etc. are the same as Villager's, I'm gonna call a spade a spade.

 

[SmashBro99]

Check Gamexplain's video, they do a good analysis of her moves so far.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Her down special honestly just seems like a variation of the counter sapling. It just blows up rather than tripping you.

Given that all the semi-clones have some notable spins on the moves they've inherited in spite of visual resemblance it seems rather silly to not refer to her as such, especially when she shares at least four moves that are essentially identical. If anything like her d-tilt, f-air, u-air etc. are the same as Villager's, I'm gonna call a spade a spade.

The Down Special is nothing like counter sapling. Counter Sapling doesn’t deal damage and doesn’t deal knockback, and it doesn’t send you high.

 

[NotLiquid]

The Down Special is nothing like counter sapling. Counter Sapling doesn’t deal damage and doesn’t deal knockback, and it doesn’t send you high.

Yes that's what "blows up" implies.

 

[Uffe]

Up B seems to have different properties and a different hitbox.

Lots of characters share dash attacks. Isabelle’s one might even have a different property.

Final Smash has a larger blast radius.

When it comes to clones or semi-clones, I don't take properties into consideration, because if that's all it took to make a character different, then nobody would be calling them either/or. What I look for is what the animation looks like.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

When it comes to clones or semi-clones, I don't take properties into consideration, because if that's all it took to make a character different, then nobody would be calling them either/or. What I look for is what the animation looks like.

Her similar moves have different properties...and she has drastically different moves unrelated to Villager, or any other fighter in the game. And that would need to be balanced separately and against all the cast. There's nothing in Villager's kit that even resembles the Isabelle landmine or the command grab, or her party popper. In fact, if Isabelle doesn't have the slingshot, there's no point in connecting her to Villager anymore because she would lose a critical tool.

 

[Uffe]

Her similar moves have different properties...and she has drastically different moves unrelated to Villager, or any other fighter in the game. And that would need to be balanced separately and against all the cast. There's nothing in Villager's kit that even resembles the Isabelle landmine or the command grab, or her party popper. In fact, if Isabelle doesn't have the slingshot, there's no point in connecting her to Villager anymore because she would lose a critical tool.

Again with the properties. Marth and Lucina have the same exact movesets. The only thing different about them are their taunts, victory poses, voice, and properties. They're clones, or "echo" fighters. Did you see my post with what was the same and what was different between the two? I wasn't talking about the party popper, broomstick, her down smash with splashing water from a bucket, fishing rod, her different Lloid Rocket, or her cheer pompoms. Obviously those are different. We've yet to see what her fair/bair, uair/dair are. Tell me, do you not think of Lucas as a semi-clone of Ness, despite the two having PK Thunder, PK Fire, PSI Magnet, and same f-smash? I didn't include the same uair, because Ness' is different in Ultimate now. Again, if a change in properties is all it took for a character not to be a clone or semi-clone, then the terms wouldn't even apply here.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yeah, it's a well known fact that being condescending and sarcastically complaining about something as small as this discussion is the highest form of "growing up."

Fantastic observation. Thank you for your contribution. Time well spent. Keep fighting the good fight.

K. Rool, Ike and Little Mac are now Marth semi clones because I feel like being pedantic

You went around the forum quoting me and being a complete little arse. If you want to arrogantly complain about sarcasm with targeted aggression, then I appreciate you being the first contribution to my blocked users list. Congratulations on the fast road, Tommy. Happy for you to so quickly quote me in several threads to be a douche. Hope you cleaned it out well.

 

[Just a random scrub]

After seeing a bunch of gameplay footage of Ultimate after getting over my disappointment with the direct, I'll say that from what I've seen, Isabelle's definitely a semi. She shares even more moves than we saw in her original reveal. Some observations:

• Same forward tilt
• Seem to share down tilts
• Very similar dash attacks
• All her aerials sans neutral air are the same.
• However, her up and down airs have no random elements, and instead always have 2 turnips
• Grabs are identical
• Shares Pocket
• While having different aesthetics, up specials seem to function largely the same

 

[FunAtParties]

Isabelle's moveset is the definition of semi-clone. She shares about half of Villagers moveset, with some attacks having frame data or effect tweaks. How is this even a discussion?

 

[Xigger]

Isabelle's moveset is the definition of semi-clone. She shares about half of Villagers moveset, with some attacks having frame data or effect tweaks. How is this even a discussion?

No one's been discussing it since November.

 

[FunAtParties]

No one's been discussing it since November.

oh **** my bad, I should read those dates