Isaac for Smash Ultimate - #GoldenSunday Shines Again!

Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
11,899
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Even if the next Smash game ends up being a reboot, they're still going to want to add new characters. It's not just going to be veterans.

So I think Isaac could still be in with a shot of they want to throw in a new older character and another "ballot" pick. Sakurai is aware of demand (and I don't believe he dislikes Isaac), so I feel like he'll probably try to include Isaac eventually if demand persists. (though I think Isaac is in danger if his demand falters, so that's why we need to keep supporting him and Golden Sun)

Obviously it would be a shame not to see Isaac in Ultimate since he wouldn't be able to fight everyone but really we should probably take whatever we can get. :p

Honestly I could see the sequel to Ultimate having less cuts than people expect, they're probably still be there of course but it does seem like people are expecting an apocalyptic level of cuts for the next game, which seems a bit dramatic to me.
It doesn't hurt that the metric ton of suggestions that people sent to Nintendo will give a nice list to work with for the next decade or so, in regards to choosing character options, besides recent modern characters that had to be passed over for timing reasons. Keep up the good fight in the meantime.

And yeah, people are acting like the sky is falling over this. Like, is it really that big a deal if one or two people are missing by the time someone like Dixie gets in? Besides, their assets are all in here, so that'll make it easier to retrieve them, should the need arise, than for the initial preparation of Ultimate (Pichu and Young Link in particular weren't reused since Melee, that had to be a challenge). Focus on the future before the past, the veterans have immunity of varying degrees, they won't be cut forever. Prospective picks don't have that until further notice.

And I find the "reboot" term silly, do people think there's going to be a 64 remake or something? It's not like this series has much of an ongoing plot.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,611
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Since we are all Golden Sun fans here, I want to get your opinions on something. How would you guys feel if Golden Sun was remade and took some more inspiration from Dragon Quest.
Voice acting
Free roaming similar to DQ 11
Monsters being on the over world instead of random encounters
HD graphics

Or would you prefer it to stay closer to what it is with a fresh coat of paint?
A remaster with Dark Dawn’s battle system and free roaming would be great! It would help a lot with the overworld Psynergy system. And they could take some Psynergy unique to Dark Dawn over to GS1, also the unique Djinn designs. I liked that a lot in Dark Dawn.

They could also deepen the story line a little and especially the characterization of the main cast. Let us see what Felix was doing before Venus Lighthouse maybe? A remake would be able to solve a lot of plot holes of the original two games, and am down with that.
 
Last edited:

Gioka

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
360
I am of the idea that Nintendo should leave Ultimate as the last Smash game and build on it (add content, update graphics and port it over to the new consoles with added stuff too) because I think there is no way they can top the "Everyone is here" thing with Ultimate and they have pointed out before that if a next entry happens, it just won't follow that line. Also, I think Sakurai is already looking forward to work in other things (he has been saying it will be the last game since like Brawl).
Either way, I think Isaac will make it in but a new game or at least something GS related would do wonders for him, imo.
 

hustler713

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
149
I could see cuts happening, but maybe not 30-40 like some people seem to think.

personally I wouldn't exactly be against depending on how many and who get cut. There are probably over a dozen characters that could get cut and I wouldn't personally too upset over.
I don't think that would be a good idea.
Ultimate is a good place to simply let the gameplay as it is. It is accessible enough for beginners and casuals, but still deep enough for advanced players. It is liked by both the melee and the 4 community. Nintendo should just remaster it, add a few chars and stages and re-release it on the next console. What Nintendo should avoid at all cost is splitting the community ones again. And a big cut in the roster would definitely be a point making even the 4/brawl community, that pretty much ate everything Sakurai threw at them, to not transition to smash 6.

I do believe we should straight up remaster ultimate and add new characters for the next game.

If not the wtf characters and NES reps should be the first ones to get cut. I don't see why Plant, WII Fit, Duck Hunt and even Ice climbers should be in the Game over any other character.
Rosalina isn't as relevant as she was, Doctor Mario isnt relevant either, there is no need for three links, there is no need for four Marths (Marth and one clone would be completely enough), corrin is a unique character but, as I believe, the one that the smallest amount of people would miss if he to be cut, even though I love pichu, she is probably the least important character to an overrepresented Franchise, so cutting her should be considered, maybe also lucario.

So we could cut 12 characters with probably only very small backlash. 68 Characters would remain in that case. I think any other character will cause massive controversy. Characters like wolf, snake or mewtwo who were cut before are too iconic and beloved.

The Best option, weithwr you like it or not is to take Sakurai out of the next games development. Sakurai likes small development teams. Ultimate had a team of around 150 people. Ridiculous when you think about the success of the game and the budget Nintendo would probably give to its development if it was demanded.

I don't think cuts are necessary at all of we simply increase the team to the size it deserves and no longer make everything that's happening dependent on one single man's approval.
 
Last edited:

FlawedAI

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
447
I've been wondering about who I would take out of Smash if I was put in charge, so now is as good a time as any to think about that. Clearly the next game will not have "Everyone is Here!" That took so much development resources it's not worth it, given how many characters there are. I think the novelty of having so many characters has worn off, and as such, several cuts are warranted. (One of my biggest problems with Ultimate is that it "validated" several of Smash 4's weaker character choices, like Corrin and Bayonetta.)

Anyway, I'll go game by game to figure out who I'd cut.

Smash 64: None, ever. The original 12 should stay in every Smash game, as a badge of honor.
Melee: Young Link and Pichu are obvious choices, but I think they're the only ones that make sense. Doc has been reworked to play differently than Mario, and I think Roy has earned his place here, with Smash 4's (slightly) new moveset.
Brawl: I'll be honest and say that Brawl's newcomer roster has probably the best in the series, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. I personally think Wolf is unnecessary, but since so many people were mad he missed 4, he should probably stay. I only think Toon Link should stay if he gets reworked to better resemble Wind Waker, otherwise, no need.
Smash 4: Smash 4 had the "relevant character" problem, and as such, several characters should be cut. Corrin is obviously the biggest offender here, so she'd be first to go, but I think both Greninja and Bayonetta should join her. Greninja was just the "relevant" Pokémon at the time, and while it's popularity has lasted, it's not like Mewtwo or Charizard, which is why it should be cut. I never felt like Bayonetta belonged, she just seems so out of place here. While some people will say "what about Snake?", Snake just feels right in Smash, while Bayonetta doesn't. If she's going to stay, she needs to be retooled to fix her inherent design problem: beat-em-up characters are supposed to be busted, and translating that properly into Smash led to her being, well, busted. Her kit is either going to be stupid good or stupid bad, which is why she needs some time to cook before rejoining the battle. I also think that the Miis should be reworked, to be one character slot instead of three, but whatever.
Ultimate: Incineroar and Piranha Plant are the clear choices here. I'd also argue Chrom belongs here, but he's the only superfluous Echo, in my opinion. I honestly believe Incineroar is the single worst choice for Smash, ever, even worse than Piranha Plant, due to two reasons: it's completely extra, as Pokémon has already like 10 other characters, and it's not like Pokémon, of all franchises, needs any advertisement. Second, its archetype is also boring: another fire brawler. While its wrestler motif is unique, it's clear its moveset was somewhat last minute, as the cohesion normally seen is lacking. Plant is clearly a joke character, and it doesn't belong here.

So there you go, 10 characters I'd give the boot. In return, I'd focus more on reworking vets like Mario, DK, and Samus to reflect newer design philosophies, to make them really feel like themselves. I think the "fan choices" characters, like Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, and Isaac if he ever makes it, will never be cut (outside of licensing issues), so I think we'd be safe when Isaac makes it.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
4,780
I've been wondering about who I would take out of Smash if I was put in charge, so now is as good a time as any to think about that. Clearly the next game will not have "Everyone is Here!" That took so much development resources it's not worth it, given how many characters there are. I think the novelty of having so many characters has worn off, and as such, several cuts are warranted. (One of my biggest problems with Ultimate is that it "validated" several of Smash 4's weaker character choices, like Corrin and Bayonetta.)

Anyway, I'll go game by game to figure out who I'd cut.

Smash 64: None, ever. The original 12 should stay in every Smash game, as a badge of honor.
Melee: Young Link and Pichu are obvious choices, but I think they're the only ones that make sense. Doc has been reworked to play differently than Mario, and I think Roy has earned his place here, with Smash 4's (slightly) new moveset.
Brawl: I'll be honest and say that Brawl's newcomer roster has probably the best in the series, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. I personally think Wolf is unnecessary, but since so many people were mad he missed 4, he should probably stay. I only think Toon Link should stay if he gets reworked to better resemble Wind Waker, otherwise, no need.
Smash 4: Smash 4 had the "relevant character" problem, and as such, several characters should be cut. Corrin is obviously the biggest offender here, so she'd be first to go, but I think both Greninja and Bayonetta should join her. Greninja was just the "relevant" Pokémon at the time, and while it's popularity has lasted, it's not like Mewtwo or Charizard, which is why it should be cut. I never felt like Bayonetta belonged, she just seems so out of place here. While some people will say "what about Snake?", Snake just feels right in Smash, while Bayonetta doesn't. If she's going to stay, she needs to be retooled to fix her inherent design problem: beat-em-up characters are supposed to be busted, and translating that properly into Smash led to her being, well, busted. Her kit is either going to be stupid good or stupid bad, which is why she needs some time to cook before rejoining the battle. I also think that the Miis should be reworked, to be one character slot instead of three, but whatever.
Ultimate: Incineroar and Piranha Plant are the clear choices here. I'd also argue Chrom belongs here, but he's the only superfluous Echo, in my opinion. I honestly believe Incineroar is the single worst choice for Smash, ever, even worse than Piranha Plant, due to two reasons: it's completely extra, as Pokémon has already like 10 other characters, and it's not like Pokémon, of all franchises, needs any advertisement. Second, its archetype is also boring: another fire brawler. While its wrestler motif is unique, it's clear its moveset was somewhat last minute, as the cohesion normally seen is lacking. Plant is clearly a joke character, and it doesn't belong here.

So there you go, 10 characters I'd give the boot. In return, I'd focus more on reworking vets like Mario, DK, and Samus to reflect newer design philosophies, to make them really feel like themselves. I think the "fan choices" characters, like Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, and Isaac if he ever makes it, will never be cut (outside of licensing issues), so I think we'd be safe when Isaac makes it.
I agree with like almost all of this. I'd cut Lucina instead of Chrom but yeah, I think this is the way to go.
 

SPEN18

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
589
Location
MI, USA
If we're talking cuts, I'd have pretty much zero problem with cutting: Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Corrin, Incineroar, Piranha Plant.
Pretty much all the Echoes are expendable, too (to varying degrees). There are also a number of third parties I'd have no problem cutting, but that's probably a more controversial opinion of mine.
I'd also be okay with one of Falco/Wolf going, but they're both really popular so it might be a bit harder to do that.
I would be fine without Roy IF we got Lyn, though I'd also be fine with him staying even if we did get Lyn.
A few others like Ice Climbers I would prefer to keep, but could be dropped depending on what we could get instead.

But regardless of my personal thoughts, it's probably reasonable to expect some cuts (mainly out of the clones and vets that are pretty much just back for Ultimate's big gimmick, along with some third parties where they can't and/or don't want to obtain rights again), and actually the game would probably be better for it rather than trying to force everyone back when some characters really just don't make as much sense to add anymore compared to when they were first added.
 

ZelDan

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
1,412
Location
New Hampshire
Characters I'd be most okay with getting cut:

-All 3 Mii fighters
-Young Link
-Toon Link
-Dr. Mario
-Pirahna Plant
-Incineroar
-Pichu
-Ivysaur
-Squirtle (Charizard would be its own fighter again)
-Robins
-Corrins (Not a fan of avatar-ish characters personally)
-Villager (kinda avatar-ish, and we have Isabelle for AC representation still, so eh)
-Chrom
-Dark Samus
-Daisy
-Dark Pit (ideally we'd get Medusa in return)
-Bowser Jr.

Honestly, while I don't necessarily WANT Jiggly puff gone, I don't think I would ultimately be that bothered if she was removed either. She's probably the one character of the original 12 that I could get over getting the boot. I'll keep this separate from the list list since it's one of the more controversial and iffy ones.

I focused on cutting from some of the most represented (perhaps OVERrepresented franchises), in the game, and also made sure that every franchise repped in Smash so far is still kept intact (except for the Mii series I guess, if you want to count it, but meh, Mii series is pretty low on the list as far as Nintendo IPs go for me and probably many others, so **** it). Also focused on redundant characters (like doc or the little Links), and as I said above, never cared for avatar-ish characters, so for me those are pretty easy cuts. Only ones I'd really bother keeping are the Inklings because they are probably the most sensible way over repping Splatoon, since, you know, how do you choose between Callie and Marie? Or Pearl or Marina?

Also while I recognize it might be weird I'm cutting some of the more unique FE characters with Robin and Corrin, I guess I'm thinking that this hypothetical new game would make Lucina much more unique, and maybe tweak Ike and Roy to be a bit more unique as well, like giving them different down specials or something. Ideally if there was to be a new FE rep, he/she would be unique as well.
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
5,810
Location
North Carolina
I've been wondering about who I would take out of Smash if I was put in charge, so now is as good a time as any to think about that. Clearly the next game will not have "Everyone is Here!" That took so much development resources it's not worth it, given how many characters there are. I think the novelty of having so many characters has worn off, and as such, several cuts are warranted. (One of my biggest problems with Ultimate is that it "validated" several of Smash 4's weaker character choices, like Corrin and Bayonetta.)

Anyway, I'll go game by game to figure out who I'd cut.

Smash 64: None, ever. The original 12 should stay in every Smash game, as a badge of honor.
Melee: Young Link and Pichu are obvious choices, but I think they're the only ones that make sense. Doc has been reworked to play differently than Mario, and I think Roy has earned his place here, with Smash 4's (slightly) new moveset.
Brawl: I'll be honest and say that Brawl's newcomer roster has probably the best in the series, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. I personally think Wolf is unnecessary, but since so many people were mad he missed 4, he should probably stay. I only think Toon Link should stay if he gets reworked to better resemble Wind Waker, otherwise, no need.
Smash 4: Smash 4 had the "relevant character" problem, and as such, several characters should be cut. Corrin is obviously the biggest offender here, so she'd be first to go, but I think both Greninja and Bayonetta should join her. Greninja was just the "relevant" Pokémon at the time, and while it's popularity has lasted, it's not like Mewtwo or Charizard, which is why it should be cut. I never felt like Bayonetta belonged, she just seems so out of place here. While some people will say "what about Snake?", Snake just feels right in Smash, while Bayonetta doesn't. If she's going to stay, she needs to be retooled to fix her inherent design problem: beat-em-up characters are supposed to be busted, and translating that properly into Smash led to her being, well, busted. Her kit is either going to be stupid good or stupid bad, which is why she needs some time to cook before rejoining the battle. I also think that the Miis should be reworked, to be one character slot instead of three, but whatever.
Ultimate: Incineroar and Piranha Plant are the clear choices here. I'd also argue Chrom belongs here, but he's the only superfluous Echo, in my opinion. I honestly believe Incineroar is the single worst choice for Smash, ever, even worse than Piranha Plant, due to two reasons: it's completely extra, as Pokémon has already like 10 other characters, and it's not like Pokémon, of all franchises, needs any advertisement. Second, its archetype is also boring: another fire brawler. While its wrestler motif is unique, it's clear its moveset was somewhat last minute, as the cohesion normally seen is lacking. Plant is clearly a joke character, and it doesn't belong here.

So there you go, 10 characters I'd give the boot. In return, I'd focus more on reworking vets like Mario, DK, and Samus to reflect newer design philosophies, to make them really feel like themselves. I think the "fan choices" characters, like Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, and Isaac if he ever makes it, will never be cut (outside of licensing issues), so I think we'd be safe when Isaac makes it.
I agree with like almost all of this. I'd cut Lucina instead of Chrom but yeah, I think this is the way to go.
I agree with GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 . I'd also cut Lucina rather than Chrom. By the way, what about Dark Pit? Personally, I think that if Sakurai is willing to give him his own weapons (out of the multitude of weapons usable in Kid Icarus Uprising) to use in Smash, I'd be OK with him staying.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
4,780
I agree with GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 . I'd also cut Lucina rather than Chrom. By the way, what about Dark Pit? Personally, I think that if Sakurai is willing to give him his own weapons (out of the multitude of weapons usable in Kid Icarus Uprising) to use in Smash, I'd be OK with him staying.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I really like Dark Pit. He's a great character in Uprising and he has notable differences (I know Lucina does too but tipper vs. even damage is imperceptible to a layman like me). It would be fun to see different weapons represented through him, but to be honest DP is the quintessential Echo and decloning him might make him more prone to cuts in the future so I'll take what I can get.

I also really like Echoes and if it were up to me I'd leave them all. The only reason I'd cut Lucina is because Awakening really doesn't merit two characters with how much holes FE representation has and Lucina just feels like she adds the least.
 

tbuster766

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
282
I'd
I'm probably in the minority here, but I really like Dark Pit. He's a great character in Uprising and he has notable differences (I know Lucina does too but tipper vs. even damage is imperceptible to a layman like me). It would be fun to see different weapons represented through him, but to be honest DP is the quintessential Echo and decloning him might make him more prone to cuts in the future so I'll take what I can get.

I also really like Echoes and if it were up to me I'd leave them all. The only reason I'd cut Lucina is because Awakening really doesn't merit two characters with how much holes FE representation has and Lucina just feels like she adds the least.
I agree. Personally I'd cut Lucina and Corrin out and add Lyn and Black Knight.
 

SPEN18

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
589
Location
MI, USA
Everybody seems convinced that FE representation is so broken but it's actually not too far off from being pretty good.

Marth/Ike/Robin/Lyn seems like such a no-brainer core four. You get basically every era of Fire Emblem represented except for SNES and Switch (the former they can probably get away with since it was JP-only and the latter is still pretty new). You get the most popular male (Ike) along with the most popular female (Lyn). You get the OG and best overall representative of the series (Marth). And you get something highly unique (Robin).

After that, there are a number of options to fill out the FE cast: whichever Echoes fit your fancy, a clone or two (for ex., Roy for Smash popularity or Leif for SNES rep), or maybe one more unique (they could leave Corrin, add someone from Three Houses if that game ends up with a lasting legacy by the time Smash 6 rolls around, or choose something else entirely). How many of these end up in the game would just depend on dev time. A fifth unique (and giving Lyn some bow moves) could be used to keep people from barking too loudly about sword overkill, if people still think that's a problem.

Overall, you can cover just about all the bases without going too overboard. Four uniques + clones/Echoes and possibly one more unique doesn't seem like too much.
 

Gioka

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
360
I think a lot of us are focusing on who we wouldn't mind to go and while that is OK, I think some cuts would have to do with rights issues, so I think one of the first to go would be Cloud. In general I think 3rd parties rep would be in danger aside of some of them for their relationship with Nintendo (Sonic, for example). However, I'd be fine with some of the most repped franchises either losing a character or replacing it with another one be it for more accurate representation or for relevance/promotional goals (I am looking at you Fire Emblem).
 

Sabrewulf238

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
4,723
Location
Ireland
I am of the idea that Nintendo should leave Ultimate as the last Smash game and build on it (add content, update graphics and port it over to the new consoles with added stuff too) because I think there is no way they can top the "Everyone is here" thing with Ultimate and they have pointed out before that if a next entry happens, it just won't follow that line. Also, I think Sakurai is already looking forward to work in other things (he has been saying it will be the last game since like Brawl).
Either way, I think Isaac will make it in but a new game or at least something GS related would do wonders for him, imo.
Realistically I wonder how big the roster can get before it starts causing major problems.

I'm guessing Smash Bros will reach a point where the relative size of the roster won't change, but 10-20 characters get the boot/swapped each game in favour of new characters. (or returning veterans that got booted the previous game I guess)

Generally I do agree though, I think I'd prefer if they released an expansion or two for Ultimate before moving on to the next game and cutting a load of characters. (I mean if that's even possible...)

It would be funny if they released something like "Smash Bros Ultimate: Ultimate Edition".
 

FlawedAI

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
447
If we're talking cuts, I'd have pretty much zero problem with cutting: Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Corrin, Incineroar, Piranha Plant.
Pretty much all the Echoes are expendable, too (to varying degrees). There are also a number of third parties I'd have no problem cutting, but that's probably a more controversial opinion of mine.
I'd also be okay with one of Falco/Wolf going, but they're both really popular so it might be a bit harder to do that.
I would be fine without Roy IF we got Lyn, though I'd also be fine with him staying even if we did get Lyn.
A few others like Ice Climbers I would prefer to keep, but could be dropped depending on what we could get instead.

But regardless of my personal thoughts, it's probably reasonable to expect some cuts (mainly out of the clones and vets that are pretty much just back for Ultimate's big gimmick, along with some third parties where they can't and/or don't want to obtain rights again), and actually the game would probably be better for it rather than trying to force everyone back when some characters really just don't make as much sense to add anymore compared to when they were first added.
I know a lot of people seem to want Squirtle and Ivysaur gone, but I love Pokémon Trainer and I think he's the best way to represent Pokémon in general, since he focuses on core gameplay aspects like switching Pokémon for different scenarios. Pichu and Incineroar, however, should be gone.
The only third-parties I'd cut are Bayonetta and Joker, if only because their series don't have the long-lasting impact like other third-parties do. (Also, we should've gotten a Shin Megami Tensei rep before Persona.)
I agree with GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 . I'd also cut Lucina rather than Chrom. By the way, what about Dark Pit? Personally, I think that if Sakurai is willing to give him his own weapons (out of the multitude of weapons usable in Kid Icarus Uprising) to use in Smash, I'd be OK with him staying.
I would keep Lucina over Chrom for two reasons: first, she was here first, and second, she's actually super different in the competitive scene, and I feel like her lack of a tipper impacts her gameplay vs Marth much more than Chrom's does vs Roy.
 

SPEN18

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
589
Location
MI, USA
I know a lot of people seem to want Squirtle and Ivysaur gone, but I love Pokémon Trainer and I think he's the best way to represent Pokémon in general, since he focuses on core gameplay aspects like switching Pokémon for different scenarios.
I can see why people like what Pkmn Trainer represents. Personally, I prefer to base the representation more around the characters themselves; each character should represent how they work within their game, but using characters just for the sake of representing mechanics seems farther from the point of the roster. Pkmn Trainer would be fine if it didn't take so much extra dev time that could be spent on characters I'd like to see more than Squirtle and Ivysaur. This is just my opinion though so don't fight me lol
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
4,780
I would keep Lucina over Chrom for two reasons: first, she was here first, and second, she's actually super different in the competitive scene, and I feel like her lack of a tipper impacts her gameplay vs Marth much more than Chrom's does vs Roy.
I get the competitive thing, but her being in first doesn't really work for me considering, well, Chrom should have been in first.
 

FlawedAI

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
447
I can see why people like what Pkmn Trainer represents. Personally, I prefer to base the representation more around the characters themselves; each character should represent how they work within their game, but using characters just for the sake of representing mechanics seems farther from the point of the roster. Pkmn Trainer would be fine if it didn't take so much extra dev time that could be spent on characters I'd like to see more than Squirtle and Ivysaur. This is just my opinion though so don't fight me lol
I think that's fine when you only have one or two characters to represent the franchise, but since Pokémon has 10, I think one (three?) can be used to serve as a super unique (only character with switching abilities) and representative fighter.
I get the competitive thing, but her being in first doesn't really work for me considering, well, Chrom should have been in first.
Eh, Lucina fit better. She works as a Marth clone and I personally see Chrom as unnecessary.
 

SirCamp

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
433
I think that's fine when you only have one or two characters to represent the franchise, but since Pokémon has 10, I think one (three?) can be used to serve as a super unique (only character with switching abilities) and representative fighter.

Eh, Lucina fit better. She works as a Marth clone and I personally see Chrom as unnecessary.
Honestly I'd cut both of them. lol So we all have different opinions. I would absolutely cut way more than most people would in general though. INcluding Jigglypuff who most seem to view as sacred. And yes I have been around since Smash 64. I even used Puff quite a bit in Melee against my friends once I found out she was actually good. But imo precedence/tradition is one of the absolute worst reasons to continue to do something in general Smash or otherwise, so the fact that she was of the original 12 is pretty meaningless for me personally.

Be glad I'll never be in charge I guess hehe
 

SPEN18

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
589
Location
MI, USA
I think that's fine when you only have one or two characters to represent the franchise, but since Pokémon has 10, I think one (three?) can be used to serve as a super unique (only character with switching abilities) and representative fighter.
But wait, if you only have one fighter from a particular franchise, then wouldn't that be a better excuse to make them more of a general representation of their series and its mechanics? There's a reason that people have brought up Isaac using other elemental moves; if we were getting Jenna and Ivan along with Isaac then I don't think anybody would suggest that. Having so many different types of Pkmn in the game (Pikachu being Electric and NFE, Lucario being Fighting/Steel, etc.) already kinda showcases how different Pkmn are better at fighting in different situations. Is it as good as the Trainer in terms of representing the switching/matchups mechanic of the series? No. But is it good enough that we don't need to make 2 extra uniques? I think so. If the switching mechanic could be done without that much extra work, then fine, but at the end of the day it is pretty much just a gimmick.
 

Lenidem

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
147
But wait, if you only have one fighter from a particular franchise, then wouldn't that be a better excuse to make them more of a general representation of their series and its mechanics? There's a reason that people have brought up Isaac using other elemental moves; if we were getting Jenna and Ivan along with Isaac then I don't think anybody would suggest that. Having so many different types of Pkmn in the game (Pikachu being Electric and NFE, Lucario being Fighting/Steel, etc.) already kinda showcases how different Pkmn are better at fighting in different situations. Is it as good as the Trainer in terms of representing the switching/matchups mechanic of the series? No. But is it good enough that we don't need to make 2 extra uniques? I think so. If the switching mechanic could be done without that much extra work, then fine, but at the end of the day it is pretty much just a gimmick.
Just wanted to say, I approve... and yet I ****ing love Pokémon Trainer. I'd rather cut Lucario, Greninja and Incineroar, but I'm an old fool from gen one.

Sorry, it was a bit out of subject.
 

FlawedAI

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
447
Honestly I'd cut both of them. lol So we all have different opinions. I would absolutely cut way more than most people would in general though. INcluding Jigglypuff who most seem to view as sacred. And yes I have been around since Smash 64. I even used Puff quite a bit in Melee against my friends once I found out she was actually good. But imo precedence/tradition is one of the absolute worst reasons to continue to do something in general Smash or otherwise, so the fact that she was of the original 12 is pretty meaningless for me personally.

Be glad I'll never be in charge I guess hehe
For me, Puff represents some of the ridiculous that Smash has always had, as the first "joke" character, it keeps that unique touch Smash has. There are several characters I'd cut as well that people may not like, but I think Puff has done its time to cement itself as necessary for Smash.
But wait, if you only have one fighter from a particular franchise, then wouldn't that be a better excuse to make them more of a general representation of their series and its mechanics? There's a reason that people have brought up Isaac using other elemental moves; if we were getting Jenna and Ivan along with Isaac then I don't think anybody would suggest that. Having so many different types of Pkmn in the game (Pikachu being Electric and NFE, Lucario being Fighting/Steel, etc.) already kinda showcases how different Pkmn are better at fighting in different situations. Is it as good as the Trainer in terms of representing the switching/matchups mechanic of the series? No. But is it good enough that we don't need to make 2 extra uniques? I think so. If the switching mechanic could be done without that much extra work, then fine, but at the end of the day it is pretty much just a gimmick.
One of my personal beliefs is that uniqueness is a big factor for keeping characters, which is why I'd cut characters like Wolf (Fox/Falco work fine for Star Fox) and Incineroar (another Pokémon/fire brawler, doesn't do enough new), even if others wouldn't. That same reasoning is why I'd advocate for Pokémon Trainer staying, because he's a unique character with a unique gimmick, as well as best representing the series he comes from. The thing is, if we didn't get an unnecessary new Pokémon every game, Trainer would be an easy pick for returning. If you cut Pichu, Greninja, and Incineroar, like I would, but kept Trainer, you'd have 7 unique Pokémon, which is perfect, imo. Less than Mario, more than Zelda, perfect for Nintendo's "number two" franchise (Mario is the obvious number one, even though Pokémon makes way more money).
 

N3ON

The Less I Know the Better
GRimer
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
16,756
Location
Vancouver
They've never been as low effort in the past. Now they are pretty much costumes with some tweaks.
Past clones have also been very low effort when compared to the original characters that still more regularly get in over them. Characters of such low effort are usually implemented to pad the roster, and therefore, given how they've been treated and how Sakurai talks about them, are usually seen as supplementary. If it was a question of ease, yes, they're much easier to bring back than an original character - but that's not typically what is prioritized.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
1,649
Past clones have also been very low effort when compared to the original characters that still more regularly get in over them. Characters of such low effort are usually implemented to pad the roster, and therefore, given how they've been treated and how Sakurai talks about them, are usually seen as supplementary. If it was a question of ease, yes, they're much easier to bring back than an original character - but that's not typically what is prioritized.
It's not about being prioritized. I don't think they will be but with this new method unless by some miracle Sakurai can sacrifice making echoes for one new character they don't need to be. The way I see it unless Sakurai just wants to replace the current echoes with new echoes they likely aren't going anywhere. We didn't get a new term for this to not be a thing.
 

Undella2

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
208
I, for one, don't think that Lucina should be cut...

...of course, I main her, as she's a very straightforward and easy-to-learn swordie, perfect for a person who's not the best at fighting games such as myself, but still...

Anyway, moving back to Isaac, who do you all think would voice him in the event of him getting into a Smash game?

Do you think it would be kept the same as his assist trophy or not?

For me, personally, his current AT voice actor/actress seems to give him a bit too childish of a voice.
 

NessAtc.

Fukou Da...
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
423
Location
Vancouver Island
3DS FC
4699-7691-7794
NNID
nintenstar98
Switch FC
SW-2476-6260-3913
Anyway, moving back to Isaac, who do you all think would voice him in the event of him getting into a Smash game?

Do you think it would be kept the same as his assist trophy or not?

For me, personally, his current AT voice actor/actress seems to give him a bit too childish of a voice.
for me personally, I would like to hear Tom Bauer or Chris Patton
 

N3ON

The Less I Know the Better
GRimer
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
16,756
Location
Vancouver
It's not about being prioritized.
You say it isn't about priority, but that's how the roster is built. Priority is one of the most important factors at play, a roster can't take shape properly without a hierarchy. Without some sort of priority, some sort of order, you'd have a huge number of half-made characters by launch. When the topic is cuts, it absolutely is about priority. And, as long as there are cuts, derivative characters are disproportionately disfavoured.

Melee to Brawl, all characters cut but one were clones. Very basic clones, for the most part. Not semi-clones. If priority were on who would be the easiest to bring back, they all should've stuck around... all their base characters did.

Brawl to Smash 4, if you exclude the atypical technical limitations, as that won't be a frequent element, two of the three cut characters were derivative. No original Nintendo characters were cut. Even though one was re-added through DLC, priority clearly wasn't with derivative additions.

When Smash does get cuts again, who do you think will be on the chopping block? Third-parties probably, to some extent - their inclusion is definitely more tenuous. But when it comes to Nintendo characters, Sakurai has clearly demonstrated an aversion to cutting original characters. If Sonic hadn't thrown Brawl's schedule off, and the 3DS hadn't presented unusual obstacles, it's very likely no original Nintendo characters would've been cut in the entire series. All would've been derivative additions, with one third-party.

I'm not banking on this trend changing. Sakurai has never been one to prioritize ease over other factors, and while I definitely agree if simplicity was of optimal importance, they'd all stick around, that clearly isn't how he orders the chopping block. Wasn't he the one who compared clones to a "free dessert after the main meal"? He obviously sees them as ancillary, meaning they're valued less, and therefore among the first to go.

I'm not saying they'll all go, and I'm not saying new ones won't be added. I'm not even saying original Nintendo characters won't face cuts. I'm just saying that the pattern of cuts being disproportionately weighed towards clones will maintain.

Well, I don't think any clones pre-Ultimate have been well received.
What? A handful weren't... like Pichu, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. But then you have Luigi and Roy and Falco and Lucina. And that's not even counting semi-clones like Lucas and whatever Wolf is.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
4,780
What? A handful weren't... like Pichu, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. But then you have Luigi and Roy and Falco and Lucina. And that's not even counting semi-clones like Lucas and whatever Wolf is.
Luigi, Falco and Lucina never got cut. Roy, Lucas and Wolf were cut and returned due to massive fan demand.

What I'm saying is I don't think Echoes will get the shaft because overall the reception to them was very positive. They're low priority, sure, but that's offset by low workload, and the difference with the cut clones of old is precisely the difference in reception.
 

N3ON

The Less I Know the Better
GRimer
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
16,756
Location
Vancouver
Luigi, Falco and Lucina never got cut. Roy, Lucas and Wolf were cut and returned due to massive fan demand.

What I'm saying is I don't think Echoes will get the shaft because overall the reception to them was very positive. They're low priority, sure, but that's offset by low workload, and the difference with the cut clones of old is precisely the difference in reception.
I misunderstood the qualifier was just ones that had been cut... but Lucas, Wolf, and Roy (apart from right at the beginning when people had no clue who he was) were well received during their first appearance, that's part of why they had such high demand upon their cuts when compared to other axed characters.
 
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
652
I, for one, don't think that Lucina should be cut...

...of course, I main her, as she's a very straightforward and easy-to-learn swordie, perfect for a person who's not the best at fighting games such as myself, but still...

Anyway, moving back to Isaac, who do you all think would voice him in the event of him getting into a Smash game?

Do you think it would be kept the same as his assist trophy or not?

For me, personally, his current AT voice actor/actress seems to give him a bit too childish of a voice.
Likely he'll keep his Japanese VA if Sakurai views Isaac as a silent protagonist from his first game who will simply do various actions as his victory animations and taunts. I also think the Japanese actress may sound a bit different when she's able to record new lines for a fighter vs the old clips of an assist from almost a decade ago. Judging by how they handled the FE cast. It doesn't seem like Smash itself goes out of it's way to hire new VAs for the sole purpose of Smash, even if they have speaking roles, only when said characters canonically get a voiced role in a project and then have an official English VA. Though say in the the case of a Golden Sun remake and they give Isaac some voiced lines here and there and Isaac gets his Smash debut after, he will definitely have that English VA follow him.

Though scratching all of the above, I'd want Johnny Yong Bosch to voice Isaac. As if I haven't said this man's name enough in this thread lol. I'd like to hear something along the range of his Vash, Cress Albane, or Rush.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
1,649
You say it isn't about priority, but that's how the roster is built. Priority is one of the most important factors at play, a roster can't take shape properly without a hierarchy. Without some sort of priority, some sort of order, you'd have a huge number of half-made characters by launch. When the topic is cuts, it absolutely is about priority. And, as long as there are cuts, derivative characters are disproportionately disfavoured.

Melee to Brawl, all characters cut but one were clones. Very basic clones, for the most part. Not semi-clones. If priority were on who would be the easiest to bring back, they all should've stuck around... all their base characters did.

Brawl to Smash 4, if you exclude the atypical technical limitations, as that won't be a frequent element, two of the three cut characters were derivative. No original Nintendo characters were cut. Even though one was re-added through DLC, priority clearly wasn't with derivative additions.

When Smash does get cuts again, who do you think will be on the chopping block? Third-parties probably, to some extent - their inclusion is definitely more tenuous. But when it comes to Nintendo characters, Sakurai has clearly demonstrated an aversion to cutting original characters. If Sonic hadn't thrown Brawl's schedule off, and the 3DS hadn't presented unusual obstacles, it's very likely no original Nintendo characters would've been cut in the entire series. All would've been derivative additions, with one third-party.

I'm not banking on this trend changing. Sakurai has never been one to prioritize ease over other factors, and while I definitely agree if simplicity was of optimal importance, they'd all stick around, that clearly isn't how he orders the chopping block. Wasn't he the one who compared clones to a "free dessert after the main meal"? He obviously sees them as ancillary, meaning they're valued less, and therefore among the first to go.

I'm not saying they'll all go, and I'm not saying new ones won't be added. I'm not even saying original Nintendo characters won't face cuts. I'm just saying that the pattern of cuts being disproportionately weighed towards clones will maintain.


What? A handful weren't... like Pichu, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. But then you have Luigi and Roy and Falco and Lucina. And that's not even counting semi-clones like Lucas and whatever Wolf is.
I say it isn't about priority because the very nature of how echoes are added and made means the actual characters we get are already done when they start getting added. Echoes are easier make then any clones before so they aren't going to be prioritized but there will be the point in development where no more real characters can be added and Sakurai will do his tried and true method of padding the roster. Once again I say as long as the base character is in the game likely so is the echo.
 
Last edited:

FlawedAI

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
447
I, for one, don't think that Lucina should be cut...

...of course, I main her, as she's a very straightforward and easy-to-learn swordie, perfect for a person who's not the best at fighting games such as myself, but still...

Anyway, moving back to Isaac, who do you all think would voice him in the event of him getting into a Smash game?

Do you think it would be kept the same as his assist trophy or not?

For me, personally, his current AT voice actor/actress seems to give him a bit too childish of a voice.
I personally hate his AT voice, so I hope we get something better. Honestly? I think someone like Yuri Lowenthal would work well. He's proven he can work with the "teenaged/early 20s hero" characters with Spider-Man and Persona 3's protagonist, so I think he'd do an excellent job with Isaac.
Likely he'll keep his Japanese VA if Sakurai views Isaac as a silent protagonist from his first game who will simply do various actions as his victory animations and taunts. I also think the Japanese actress may sound a bit different when she's able to record new lines for a fighter vs the old clips of an assist from almost a decade ago. Judging by how they handled the FE cast. It doesn't seem like Smash itself goes out of it's way to hire new VAs for the sole purpose of Smash, even if they have speaking roles, only when said characters canonically get a voiced role in a project and then have an official English VA. Though say in the the case of a Golden Sun remake and they give Isaac some voiced lines here and there and Isaac gets his Smash debut after, he will definitely have that English VA follow him.

Though scratching all of the above, I'd want Johnny Yong Bosch to voice Isaac. As if I haven't said this man's name enough in this thread lol. I'd like to hear something along the range of his Vash, Cress Albane, or Rush.
I mean, Smash gave Marth, Roy, Pit, and several others their first VAs (in games, at least), so it's not out of the question for Smash to cast new actors for roles. I've always seen Isaac as someone who can speak, but he doesn't, at least, not when he's the player's character. He clearly speaks in TLA and DD, so I would hope that Sakurai gives him lines.
 
Top