Isaac for Smash Ultimate - #GoldenSunday Shines Again!

N3ON

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I imagine at some point we'll get a Mario Golf game on Switch, especially given how well Aces sold. But the thing is, we'd still, presumably, have time in the console's lifespan for one more game out of Camelot. Their turnaround is generally relatively speedy. And I'm assuming the Golf game will reuse a lot of the character assets.

So it'll be interesting to see if and what that third game turns out to be. I'd love to say it bodes well for GS, but Camelot also gets involved in Mario sports compilations... so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I believe that Golden Sun is on the forefront of first-party Smash representation, if only because it has it's foot in the door already. Rhythm Heaven is probably next, followed by Advance Wars or ARMS.

That said, the series is kinda stuck in a loop: we're not in Smash because the series hasn't been "relevant", but getting in Smash would revive the series, making it relevant enough for Smash. The whole thing is awful, and it gets worse every day nothing Golden Sun-related is announced.
I'd say ARMS is probably next in line. It's recent, performed well, and would've got representation this time around if not for poor timing. All it needs to do is not go MIA (which seems unlikely given its sales), and a future spot seems assured.

After that, it'd be Golden Sun or Rhythm Heaven. I'd give the edge to Rhythm Heaven if not for the fact that even after a character was planned for 4, we still didn't get one with Ultimate. Maybe something's up. Plus, now the series seems to be on hiatus with an unsure future... and it doesn't have the Smash popularity that Isaac does, so things look murky. Given all that... at this juncture I would actually give 2nd place to GS. Though a new RH game would change that.
 

FlawedAI

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I'm glad they did Mario tennis already, so they're available at the moment. I just believe that its not the perfect time for gs to reappear.
The last year's pretty much everything sold well on switch. I don't know if that's still the case, but I'd say gs would have it harder these days than it had in 2018 or 17.
I mean, Octopath and Xenoblade 2 both hit over a million units, and one is a brand new IP, not to mention Square is porting every single Final Fantasy they can to the Switch currently (at least the 3D ones), I think there's never been a better time for GS to return. The climate is perfect for RPGs on Switch currently, and with the Smash snub, GS is relevant in the minds of fans like never before. They'd be missing out if they missed this opportunity to capitalize on this fan-generated hype.
I imagine at some point we'll get a Mario Golf game on Switch, especially given how well Aces sold. But the thing is, we'd still, presumably, have time in the console's lifespan for one more game out of Camelot. Their turnaround is generally relatively speedy. And I'm assuming the Golf game will reuse a lot of the character assets.

So it'll be interesting to see if and what that third game turns out to be. I'd love to say it bodes well for GS, but Camelot also gets involved in Mario sports compilations... so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


I'd say ARMS is probably next in line. It's recent, performed well, and would've got representation this time around if not for poor timing. All it needs to do is not go MIA (which seems unlikely given its sales), and a future spot seems assured.

After that, it'd be Golden Sun or Rhythm Heaven. I'd give the edge to Rhythm Heaven if not for the fact that even after a character was planned for 4, we still didn't get one with Ultimate. Maybe something's up. Plus, now the series seems to be on hiatus with an unsure future... and it doesn't have the Smash popularity that Isaac does, so things look murky. Given all that... at this juncture I would actually give 2nd place to GS. Though a new RH game would change that.
I'm not so sure about ARMS. It seems to have gone kinda dark, but I know that Splatoon did a similar thing once its updates were over. I feel like the outcry over Isaac's Assist makes it seem to Nintendo that Golden Sun would do better than ARMS, at least in terms of Smash. I guess the question is one of legacy vs. relevance, which I would hope legacy would win.
 

N3ON

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I'm not so sure about ARMS. It seems to have gone kinda dark, but I know that Splatoon did a similar thing once its updates were over.
I'm not quite sure what you're expecting out of ARMS. It did only come out two years ago, not having a sequel yet isn't atypical. Neither is receiving only around a half year of additional DLC. It added as many DLC characters as fighters normally do... and holding it up to the standard of like, Splatoon DLC is a bit unrealistic, since that series is massive with an unusual degree of post-launch support.

I'm not sure what they are, because I've never played the game, but ARMS does still get weekly party crashes though, two years down the line.

I feel like the outcry over Isaac's Assist makes it seem to Nintendo that Golden Sun would do better than ARMS, at least in terms of Smash. I guess the question is one of legacy vs. relevance, which I would hope legacy would win.
Well we already received the statement that the only thing that kept Spring-Man out was timing. So in this case I think relevance would've won.

But I'm not quite sure what "do better in terms of Smash" means. Do you mean fiscally, as DLC? I suspect Spring-Man would do better, I think he'd be more recognizable to a wider audience. I think Nintendo was aware of the outcry over Isaac's AT, but that outcry also came from a very small, if loud, fraction of the fanbase.

I'm not saying the backlash was meaningless, obviously they do listen to fans, but I think as long as ARMS remains current and Golden Sun doesn't, Spring-Man will have the upper hand.

Funnily enough ARMS is on a similar situation regarding a potential sequel, as it was made by the people who work on Mario Kart, and we only have an enhanced port of MK8 as of right now, so who knows...
My guess towards the order of what's to come is the next Mario Kart followed by the next ARMS. I do think the next ARMS will either be released or will be in the later stages of development by the time of the next Smash.
 

FlawedAI

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I'm not quite sure what you're expecting out of ARMS. It did only come out two years ago, not having a sequel yet isn't atypical. Neither is receiving only around a half year of additional DLC. It added as many DLC characters as fighters normally do... and holding it up to the standard of like, Splatoon DLC is a bit unrealistic, since that series is massive with an unusual degree of post-launch support.

I'm not sure what they are, because I've never played the game, but ARMS does still get weekly party crashes though, two years down the line.


Well we already received the statement that the only thing that kept Spring-Man out was timing. So in this case I think relevance would've won.

But I'm not quite sure what "do better in terms of Smash" means. Do you mean fiscally, as DLC? I suspect Spring-Man would do better, I think he'd be more recognizable to a wider audience. I think Nintendo was aware of the outcry over Isaac's AT, but that outcry also came from a very small, if loud, fraction of the fanbase.

I'm not saying the backlash was meaningless, obviously they do listen to fans, but I think as long as ARMS remains current and Golden Sun doesn't, Spring-Man will have the upper hand.


My guess towards the order of what's to come is the next Mario Kart followed by the next ARMS. I do think the next ARMS will either be released or will be in the later stages of development by the time of the next Smash.
To me, it feels like ARMS dropped of the face of the Earth following the final character. I am aware that the Party Crashes still happen, but how many people are still playing it? To me, and a lot of others online, it felt kinda devoid of anything outside of the versus mode, so I have no idea how successful it is/will be in the long run. It sold well, for sure, but will that success transfer to a potential sequel, like Splatoon's? I'm not sure. Especially given the (presumed) long wait between Ultimate and whatever Smash game comes next, ARMS may not be "relevant" anymore. Meanwhile, Isaac has a long-lasting, loud, supportive fanbase regarding Smash. Golden Sun may not be relevant, but Isaac's fan demand would supposedly override his series' absence, like K. Rool. Sakurai has stated that he doesn't like putting recent content that isn't a "sure thing" in Smash (outside of new Pokémon, it seems), as seen by the fact that the Inklings missed Smash 4, and content from recent games like Splatoon 2, ARMS, Xenoblade 2, and other games released in 2017/18 missed Ultimate.

I guess we'll have to wait to see how a prospective ARMS 2 does, because I'm not sure that series will last long enough to remain "current" enough. Was the first game a success? Of course. But from my perspective, ARMS is missing a future, like Golden Sun is. I don't see people clamoring online for ARMS 2 like people do for Golden Sun 4 (though of course I may just not be seeing those people, social media can be somewhat of an echo chamber), so my feelings are that Golden Sun has the staying power ARMS simply lacks.

Edit - TL;DR: Isaac's fanbase is proven, and the want for another GS is real, ARMS' staying power has yet to be proven.
 
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NessAtc.

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I disagree that it would be low risk. There's some pretty controversial content in the game and editing around it might alienate fans. There's also the fact that they have to foot the bill on their own translation. Based on some insider stuff from ResetERA, NOA internally considered localizing Mother 3 but decided against it, probably because of a cost-benefit analysis.
historically, the mother series has sold pretty terribly compared to it's other juggernauts. Even Golden Sun outperformed it massively.
I imagine at some point we'll get a Mario Golf game on Switch, especially given how well Aces sold. But the thing is, we'd still, presumably, have time in the console's lifespan for one more game out of Camelot. Their turnaround is generally relatively speedy. And I'm assuming the Golf game will reuse a lot of the character assets..
the problem with golf is that, unlike many other games, it has not been put up for a new trademark. Now, while it's up in the air whether or not a trademark is indicative of a game happening, the lack of one tends to mean it is not. It doesn't help that the last Golf did not do so hot.
 
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ZelDan

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historically, the mother series has sold pretty terribly compared to it's other juggernauts. Even Golden Sun outperformed it massively.

the problem with golf is that, unlike many other games, it has not been put up for a new trademark. Now, while it's up in the air whether or not a trademark is indicative of a game happening, the lack of one tends to mean it is not. It doesn't help that the last Golf did not do so hot.
So, you're saying that another mario golf might not be too likely?

Darn it that stinks. If only Camelot had another franchise they could work with. :(
 
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Something that does worry me to an extent is like some are bringing up Mario Golf does seem like something that will probably show up for the Switch.

With Square having their own division working on games for Nintendo now and even series like Xenoblade (which I love) doing well, Nintendo might not see any need to have Camelot work on another Golden Sun game.
 
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Camelot has to work on something though. If they're not making Mario Tennis, and they're not making Mario Golf, they might as well be working on Golden Sun.
It worries me Nintendo will just always have them working on the next Mario sports game.

If it’s not Mario Golf then Mario Hoops, or some other sport. Because Nintendo knows for sure that people will buy whatever has Mario’s face on it so they’ll never go wrong with doing that.

Meanwhile they know they have the RPG genre covered with Square, or Monolith Soft, or Gamefreak, or whoever.
 

GoodGrief741

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It worries me Nintendo will just always have them working on the next Mario sports game.

If it’s not Mario Golf then Mario Hoops, or some other sport. Because Nintendo knows for sure that people will buy whatever has Mario’s face on it so they’ll never go wrong with doing that.

Meanwhile they know they have the RPG genre covered with Square, or Monolith Soft, or Gamefreak, or whoever.
There can only be so many sports games on one console. And there are only so many sports.

Plus there's that Japanese thing where devs are reluctant to work on other devs' series. Mario Hoops was Square Enix, Mario Sluggers was Bandai Namco, and Mario Strikers was Next Level Games. Assuming Nintendo even wants to make sequels to those games, they might stick to the studios that worked on them the last time. Maybe Camelot gets tapped to make Mario Strikers if Next Level is busy on a new Punch-Out and Nintendo can't wait, but other than that I think Camelot's options are either another Mario Golf, a new sports franchise (they're kinda running out of sports), or Golden Sun.
 
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There can only be so many sports games on one console. And there are only so many sports.

Plus there's that Japanese thing where devs are reluctant to work on other devs' series. Mario Hoops was Square Enix, Mario Sluggers was Bandai Namco, and Mario Strikers was Next Level Games. Assuming Nintendo even wants to make sequels to those games, they might stick to the studios that worked on them the last time. Maybe Camelot gets tapped to make Mario Strikers if Next Level is busy on a new Punch-Out and Nintendo can't wait, but other than that I think Camelot's options are either another Mario Golf, a new sports franchise (they're kinda running out of sports), or Golden Sun.
Well, now that Aces DLC seems to finally be over hopefully Golden Sun is next. Even though Mario Golf is a good series we have enough Mario stuff. Please Nintendo and Camelot...
 

Diddy Kong

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All I wanna say, Banjo being in will probably be a good thing for Isaac. Relevance isn’t an issue anymore. And that was a huge thing holding us back. While I can’t really say that Isaac is gonna be a valid choice for DLC in Ultimate, a next game would probably be a great time to expect him. Because right now with The Hero from Dragon Quest being here (which actually made me very curious about playing DQ as I recently finished DQ1 on the mobile) I really don’t expect many more RPG heroes. But seeing Banjo is here (and I LOVE him being here!!) Isaac might just be one of the likelier choices for next time.
 

Hydewell

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Maybe Camelot gets tapped to make Mario Strikers if Next Level is busy on a new Punch-Out and Nintendo can't wait, but other than that I think Camelot's options are either another Mario Golf, a new sports franchise (they're kinda running out of sports), or Golden Sun.
Nintendo can also give them some money to do something new, like Grezzo did with Ever Oasis, or Indieszero with Sushi Strike. Both of them bombed really hard, but hey, the posibility is there. Nintendo wants to create new IPs they said.
For us in terms of Smash would be bad, because the more new (and succesful) franchises there are, the less possibilities for being chosen are. But, as a Nintendo fan, it's the best thing Nintendo can do.
 
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Same here! It would have been a really cool reference.
I like your avatar btw. BWD is a character that kind of grew on me during the Ultimate speculation. It’d be sweet to see him somehow get into the game. It is surprising with how popular he is in Japan and the fact that Sakurai is the father of Kirby that he hasn’t made it in yet.
 
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I like your avatar btw. BWD is a character that kind of grew on me during the Ultimate speculation. It’d be sweet to see him somehow get into the game. It is surprising with how popular he is in Japan and the fact that Sakurai is the father of Kirby that he hasn’t made it in yet.
Thanks, I really hope he makes it in some point. My avatar was actually made by someone for me over on the Isaac support discord server a while back.
 

N3ON

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To me, it feels like ARMS dropped of the face of the Earth following the final character. I am aware that the Party Crashes still happen, but how many people are still playing it? To me, and a lot of others online, it felt kinda devoid of anything outside of the versus mode, so I have no idea how successful it is/will be in the long run. It sold well, for sure, but will that success transfer to a potential sequel, like Splatoon's? I'm not sure. Especially given the (presumed) long wait between Ultimate and whatever Smash game comes next, ARMS may not be "relevant" anymore. Meanwhile, Isaac has a long-lasting, loud, supportive fanbase regarding Smash. Golden Sun may not be relevant, but Isaac's fan demand would supposedly override his series' absence, like K. Rool. Sakurai has stated that he doesn't like putting recent content that isn't a "sure thing" in Smash (outside of new Pokémon, it seems), as seen by the fact that the Inklings missed Smash 4, and content from recent games like Splatoon 2, ARMS, Xenoblade 2, and other games released in 2017/18 missed Ultimate.

I guess we'll have to wait to see how a prospective ARMS 2 does, because I'm not sure that series will last long enough to remain "current" enough. Was the first game a success? Of course. But from my perspective, ARMS is missing a future, like Golden Sun is. I don't see people clamoring online for ARMS 2 like people do for Golden Sun 4 (though of course I may just not be seeing those people, social media can be somewhat of an echo chamber), so my feelings are that Golden Sun has the staying power ARMS simply lacks.

Edit - TL;DR: Isaac's fanbase is proven, and the want for another GS is real, ARMS' staying power has yet to be proven.
The thing is, ARMS has already proven successful enough for Smash inclusion, so all it really needs to do, considering how low the bar has become for first-party Smash inclusion, is get a game between now and the next Smash. Considering it has sold past 2 million units, a follow-up seems more an eventuality than a mere possibility. Sequels have been born from much less. And even if that game fails to deliver the reception of the first, while it might hinder future potential, it won't diminish the series' current relevance.

So given that trajectory, ARMS seems pretty much a given for the next Smash. Even if the next ARMS arrives imminently and the next Smash not until years afterwards, Sakurai won't forget what's happened in the interim. There was a six year gap between Punch-Out Wii and Smash 4, but Little Mac still made the grade.

And it's true that Isaac's fan demand would be what overrides his series absence, but I really can't imagine it will override current, successful series. That's not really how it works for first-parties. We may have got K. Rool, and Isaac is now in his place (though it's not exactly 1:1, given the differences between DK and GS), but he didn't get in over any recent, successful, unrepresented series (that timing would allow). I would give the edge to any recent impactful series over a dormant fan-favourite series when it came to Smash - that's just what the game prioritizes.

Also, you're not seeing people clamouring for more ARMS because it's recent, they don't need to. You don't see people clamouring for a new Splatoon yet either. It we went a few more years without a sequel, you'd see the demand grow, even though the fanbase would shrink.

But yeah, if for some reason we don't get another ARMS between now and Smash 6, I do think Isaac's popularity will endure, while Spring-Man's will likely fail to reach the same levels. I don't find that a likely outcome, but on the off-chance it happens, I would give Isaac the edge.
 

FlawedAI

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The thing is, ARMS has already proven successful enough for Smash inclusion, so all it really needs to do, considering how low the bar has become for first-party Smash inclusion, is get a game between now and the next Smash. Considering it has sold past 2 million units, a follow-up seems more an eventuality than a mere possibility. Sequels have been born from much less. And even if that game fails to deliver the reception of the first, while it might hinder future potential, it won't diminish the series' current relevance.

So given that trajectory, ARMS seems pretty much a given for the next Smash. Even if the next ARMS arrives imminently and the next Smash not until years afterwards, Sakurai won't forget what's happened in the interim. There was a six year gap between Punch-Out Wii and Smash 4, but Little Mac still made the grade.

And it's true that Isaac's fan demand would be what overrides his series absence, but I really can't imagine it will override current, successful series. That's not really how it works for first-parties. We may have got K. Rool, and Isaac is now in his place (though it's not exactly 1:1, given the differences between DK and GS), but he didn't get in over any recent, successful, unrepresented series (that timing would allow). I would give the edge to any recent impactful series over a dormant fan-favourite series when it came to Smash - that's just what the game prioritizes.

Also, you're not seeing people clamouring for more ARMS because it's recent, they don't need to. You don't see people clamouring for a new Splatoon yet either. It we went a few more years without a sequel, you'd see the demand grow, even though the fanbase would shrink.

But yeah, if for some reason we don't get another ARMS between now and Smash 6, I do think Isaac's popularity will endure, while Spring-Man's will likely fail to reach the same levels. I don't find that a likely outcome, but on the off-chance it happens, I would give Isaac the edge.
I guess so. I suppose I just wanted something to support Isaac over Spring Man. I have nothing against ARMS, it's just not what I want in Smash. The only thing that could potentially mess with ARMS' future is the sheer amount of games Nintendo EPD is involved in, but an ARMS sequel is quite likely.
 

N3ON

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I guess so. I suppose I just wanted something to support Isaac over Spring Man. I have nothing against ARMS, it's just not what I want in Smash. The only thing that could potentially mess with ARMS' future is the sheer amount of games Nintendo EPD is involved in, but an ARMS sequel is quite likely.
Well this is just all talk about which series may be first in line. There's no quota for how many new series can be added. If GS really is number two, those are still very good odds. Only with Ultimate, which was atypical development-wise, has there never been multiple new Nintendo series added.
 

FlawedAI

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Well this is just all talk about which series may be first in line. There's no quota for how many new series can be added. If GS really is number two, those are still very good odds. Only with Ultimate, which was atypical development-wise, has there never been multiple new Nintendo series added.
Very true. I feel like both series have very very good odds for the next Smash game, whenever that is.
 

Dinoman96

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I hate to be that guy but...I still do think relevancy matters.

Like yeah sure, K. Rool and BK made it in, but for every success story like those, you have characters like Isaac or Krystal that missed their chance and can now only barely scrape on by as assist trophies.

It feels like at this point if you haven't appeared in a long time, you're going to need an extremely strong case to get in. K. Rool was the main villain and final boss of basically every DK game released during the 90s, and Banjo & Kazooie were the stars of two well regarded platformers that were considered to be cornerstones of the N64 library. Banjo-Kazooie alone outsold the entire Golden Sun franchise, and was pretty much the most successful game on N64 that wasn't an established IP (Mario, Zelda, DK, Star Fox, etc) nor a liscensed game (Goldeneye). Banjo was basically everywhere during the N64 era, generally standing alongside other major Nintendo characters for various merchandise and promotional material.



I get the feeling that Sakurai has always wanted to represent it in Smash for a good awhile now. For Melee, he mentioned B-K as an example of how fitting Rare characters were for Smash, but also ultimately unfeasible due to legal and financial issues (aka the impending MS buyout). He also wanted to put them in as trophies, but this couldn't happen, because of logistical reasons.


I've never gotten the impression Sakurai has viewed Golden Sun with particularly high regard. It just seems like he views it as some ho-hum GBA RPG series. He didn't bother to bring back Isaac's AT going into Smash 4, despite Dark Dawn releasing just a few years before Smash 4. He's only back in Ultimate because of the ballot, and the fact that said ballot could only get him an AT while the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo and Simon get all the gold says something, I think.
 
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I hate to be that guy but...I still do think relevancy matters.

Like yeah sure, K. Rool and BK made it in, but for every success story like those, you have characters like Isaac or Krystal that missed their chance and can now only barely scrape on by as assist trophies.

It feels like at this point if you haven't appeared in a long time, you're going to need an extremely strong case to get in. K. Rool was the main villain and final boss of basically every DK game released during the 90s, and Banjo & Kazooie were the stars of two well regarded platformers that were considered to be cornerstones of the N64 library. Banjo-Kazooie alone outsold the entire Golden Sun franchise, and was pretty much the most successful game on N64 that wasn't an established IP (Mario, Zelda, DK, Star Fox, etc) nor a liscensed game (Goldeneye). Banjo was basically everywhere during the N64 era, generally standing alongside other major Nintendo characters for various merchandise and promotional material.



I get the feeling that Sakurai has always wanted to represent it in Smash for a good awhile now. For Melee, he mentioned B-K as an example of how fitting Rare characters were for Smash, but also ultimately unfeasible due to legal and financial issues (aka the impending MS buyout). He also wanted to put them in as trophies, but this couldn't happen, because of logistical reasons.

I've never gotten the impression Sakurai has viewed Golden Sun with particularly high regard. It just seems like he views it as some ho-hum GBA RPG series. He didn't bother to bring back Isaac's AT going into Smash 4, despite Dark Dawn releasing just a few years before Smash 4. He's only back in Ultimate because of the ballot, and the fact that said ballot could only get him an AT while the likes of Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo and Simon get all the gold says something, I think.
Ridley and K. Rool, while both being highly requested for a very long time, also have the advantage of being part of big Nintendo franchises like Metroid and Donkey Kong.

Simon is a legacy character from the NES era. It was only a matter of time before he got in.

I know what you’re getting at, but at the same time you could argue that Sakurai didn’t care much about Banjo after Melee considering he didn’t bother doing anything with him for Brawl and Smash 4. We didn’t even get a trophy.

Fan demand and I’m sure help from guys like Phil Spencer publicly tweeting they’d love for Banjo to be in Smash helped him out greatly. And then of course Nintendo partnering with Microsoft just opened the gates.

I’m not going to sit here and act like it’s not concerning Golden Sun was completely ommited from Smash 4 when Dark Dawn came out just a few years before. It does suck. But I really do think Sakurai was pretty oblivious to Isaac’s popularity before the Smash Ballot.

We did get quite a bit of stuff in Ultimate. Isaac got pretty much everything you can get besides being playable. I’m going to stay hopeful, but also realistic. I don’t think his chances to become playable in Ultimate are very good. I think if Sakurai had any sort of thought about making him playable in DLC he wouldn’t have created his AT.
 
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FlawedAI

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I hate to be that guy but...I still do think relevancy matters.

Like yeah sure, K. Rool and BK made it in, but for every success story like those, you have characters like Isaac or Krystal that missed their chance and can now only barely scrape on by as assist trophies.

It feels like at this point if you haven't appeared in a long time, you're going to need an extremely strong case to get in. K. Rool was the main villain and final boss of basically every DK game released during the 90s, and Banjo & Kazooie were the stars of two well regarded platformers that were considered to be cornerstones of the N64 library. Banjo-Kazooie alone outsold the entire Golden Sun franchise, and was pretty much the most successful game on N64 that wasn't an established IP (Mario, Zelda, DK, Star Fox, etc) nor a liscensed game (Goldeneye). Banjo was basically everywhere during the N64 era, generally standing alongside other major Nintendo characters for various merchandise and promotional material.

You're forgetting that Isaac served this role for the GBA, as he was featured alongside Mario, Link, Pikachu, etc. as a mascot of the console, it's just that people tend to remember the N64 much better.
(I can't find a better image, but Isaac/Golden Sun appeared on packaging for the console, much like Banjo & the N64.)
gbapirate-1b.jpg
 
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N3ON

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I know what you’re getting at, but at the same time you could argue that Sakurai didn’t care much about Banjo after Melee considering he didn’t bother doing anything with him for Brawl and Smash 4. We didn’t even get a trophy.
Expecting a company to lend out their character to a competitor is usually pretty unrealistic. It's a miracle we got Banjo this time even with Nintendo and Microsoft playing nice with each other. When it was less so, it was hardly a matter of Sakurai "not bothering" to get Banjo.

You're forgetting that Isaac served this role for the GBA, as he was featured alongside Mario, Link, Pikachu, etc. as a mascot of the console, it's just that people tend to remember the N64 much better.
(I can't find a better image, but Isaac/Golden Sun appeared on packaging for the console, much like Banjo & the N64.)
View attachment 228249
I love Golden Sun but it and Banjo did not receive comparable levels of attention from Nintendo.
 
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Expecting a company to lend out their character to a competitor is usually pretty unrealistic. It's a miracle we got Banjo this time even with Nintendo and Microsoft playing nice with each other. When it was less so, it was hardly a matter of Sakurai "not bothering" to get Banjo.


I love Golden Sun but it and Banjo did not receive comparable levels of attention from Nintendo.
I’d believe Microsoft not lending Banjo out for Brawl, but not so much Smash 4. Nuts and Bolts came out the same year as Brawl. Microsoft still actually gave a crap about Banjo then. By the time Smash 4 came out the series was dead.

I think if Sakurai really wanted Banjo for 4 he could have gotten him. The constant fan demand and outside sources like Phil caught his attention finally and he went for it.
 

N3ON

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I’d believe Microsoft not lending Banjo out for Brawl, but not so much Smash 4. Nuts and Bolts came out the same year as Brawl. Microsoft still actually gave a crap about Banjo then. By the time Smash 4 came out the series was dead.

I think if Sakurai really wanted Banjo for 4 he could have gotten him. The constant fan demand and outside sources like Phil caught his attention finally and he went for it.
Well pretend that, right now, Sackboy is one of the most requested characters for Smash. Do you think Sony would lend him out to a Nintendo system? Because that's what things were like with Microsoft up to a couple years ago. I have a very tough time thinking the two companies would be willing to play ball any time before, at earliest, Smash 4 DLC.

I mean even now... do you think we're going to see any Nintendo characters on the Xbox? Dead, alive, whoever? I really doubt it.
 
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Well pretend that, right now, Sackboy is one of the most requested characters for Smash. Do you think Sony would lend him out to a Nintendo system? Because that's what things were like with Microsoft up to a couple years ago. I have a very tough time thinking the two companies would be willing to play ball any time before, at earliest, Smash 4 DLC.

I mean even now... do you think we're going to see any Nintendo characters on the Xbox? Dead, alive, whoever? I really doubt it.
Well pretend that, right now, Sackboy is one of the most requested characters for Smash. Do you think Sony would lend him out to a Nintendo system? Because that's what things were like with Microsoft up to a couple years ago. I have a very tough time thinking the two companies would be willing to play ball any time before, at earliest, Smash 4 DLC.

I mean even now... do you think we're going to see any Nintendo characters on the Xbox? Dead, alive, whoever? I really doubt it.
Sure, but Sony and Microsoft don’t have a series like Smash that’s a celebration of video game characters. If Sony had Smash and Nintendo didn’t I could see Mario making an appearance.

I don’t know how relevant Sackboy is right now, but if Sakurai really wanted him and went to Sony about his inclusion then why wouldn’t Sony want to advertise him and that series that they own?
 

Kumashock

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Relevancy shouldn't matter. Isaac is part of Nintendo's history, a fan requested character and probably not too far away from Banjo in the ballot. "Rules" against home characters are bizarre.

I don’t know how relevant Sackboy is right now, but if Sakurai really wanted him and went to Sony about his inclusion then why wouldn’t Sony want to advertise him and that series that they own?
Phil said there was no CEO talk between him and Nintendo and that Microsoft acts like a third party company these days, as they're publishing games on rival stores like Steam and the Eshop, so Nintendo approached their relations team like they did with any other third party in the game.
The same can't be said for Sony. They view themselves as a first party holder and protect their IP more, I don't think they would play ball (nor I think Nintendo has interest in any of their characters).
 
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So, how likely is it that we might get a second fighter pass? Taking in account that Sakurai is probably very very tired and all
I very much doubt it. As much of a money-maker it would likely be, Nintendo's historic and current stance on DLC prefers a "save further ideas for the next game and devote resources to other projects" approach rather than turn one game into a seasonal DLC machine. As more time passes, the number of players the DLC would reach diminishes as more people get bored and move onto playing other games.

Sakurai and much of his team have been working on nothing but Smash for over seven years now and I would say the last part of your statement is hitting the nail on the head. Development doesn't become any less complicated over time, especially if they're looking to obtain rights from third party companies.

Even though it would be less content than Smash 4's DLC in the end, I see many of this game's content additions as an extension of Smash 4's DLC plans rather than an entirely separate project. The Wii U was dying and it's cumbersome to have to account for the 3DS as well. It's very much possible that game was going to receive characters like Inkling but they again cut it short to save for this next project they knew they were going to work on immediately. In the end, Ultimate's DLC has so many additional creative nuances that show love for the origin source material that I have to respect their efforts even if it's short-lived.

As much as I would like a second pass to potentially revive the hopes of characters like Isaac and Geno, I will not believe it until I see it.
 
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So, how likely is it that we might get a second fighter pass? Taking in account that Sakurai is probably very very tired and all
I don’t think we’ll get another pass, but I can see a few extra DLC characters afterwards. They just won’t get a stage and a bunch of Mii costumes bundled with them. And they’ll most likely be first party.
 

Kumashock

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I don’t think we’ll get another pass, but I can see a few extra DLC characters afterwards. They just won’t get a stage and a bunch of Mii costumes bundled with them. And they’ll most likely be first party.
I don't believe in another season pass, Nintendo wraps up DLC quickly and the team isn't even theirs. But I would be happy with anything giving me some first party characters at this point. Maybe 2 freebies like saving Isaac and Rex from AT and Mii hell to end the development cycle.
 
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I don't believe in another season pass, Nintendo wraps up DLC quickly and the team isn't even theirs. But I would be happy with anything giving me some first party characters at this point. Maybe 2 freebies like saving Isaac and Rex from AT and Mii hell to end the development cycle.
I’d love that. Isaac has been my most wanted since pre-Brawl and as much as a lot of people don’t like Rex I really do. His English voice can get a little annoying at times and doesn’t really have range, but it never bothered me that much. Xenoblade has become one of my favorite series.
 

Guynamednelson

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Nintendo wraps up DLC quickly and the team isn't even theirs
The first point seems to depend on whether or not a game has a noticeable competitive scene. Which Smash does.
Regarding the second point, they got people from Bandai-Namco to do the game, and they still support Tekken 7.
 
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