Is Wario really OP?

[drewskii]

So I've been playin Wario since 3.0 days but started playing PM since 2.8 (or whatever the update was that was right before 3.0). I absolutely loved his style in PM and have been hooked since. I do fairly well at my local scene, placing a consistent top 3 or 4. However, I've been hearing a lot of talk about how stupid Wario is and how brain dead easy and op he is. The Socal Project M page is a very vocal group when it comes to how OP he is and how annoying he is. I personally think that Wario is mid tier (maybe high-mid but that's pushing it). He has bad match up spreads across the "top tiers" and he struggles getting in. His neutral is pretty weak, relying mostly on mistakes and capitalizing on punishes. But is there something I'm missing? Should there be some changes to Wario's design?

 

[Anime]

Nah, you're right. Wario makes people mad, but he's very well balanced. He just makes people mad because he exposes people's bad habits in the worst ways.

 

[Jamble]

I feel like most threads like this are pretty much going to get a similar answer, that being that the people complaining he's OP are just being sore. Really, I'd say in Project M NO character is overpowered to the point of being unreasonable to deal with. Every time people call him OP and call him brain dead easy, just take it as a compliment. You're kicking their tails.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

You're asking the Wario forum, of course they are going to say hes not OP. Personally I don't think he is OP as his Neutral isn't the best and he gets combod decently. I think the reason people consider him OP is that he is an incredibility unique character, so nobody knows how to fight him. I think this argument applies to ROB as well. People consider ROB top tier and the main reason is that He is a super weird character. Now just because these characters are unique and nobody knows how to fight them doesn't necessarily mean they aren't top tier though. Wario could be top 5 in the game even with people figuring out how to fight this interesting character.

IMO I think every character (except a select few like Bowser and maybe Yoshi I honestly see very little game play of them so I'm not sure) in PM 3.6 has the potential to win a tournament. This creates two tier lists. The actual power tier list ranking which character is fundamentally the best like your traditional tier list except that the difference between a character in top5 vs bottom10 is still a fairly game as contrary to what people say, PM is a incredibly even game. Now comes the second tier list, this isn't about characters potential but how easy and consistent they are to play. I'm some people will disagree with this idea and that's fine, but I fail to see the point a tier list so shallow as PMs and have it have little purpose other than to create johns about their main.This tier list is pretty self explanatory, characters that are easy to play at a top level consistency, like Ike, belong at the top of the tier list where they can get results without pouring hundred of hours into a character like Fox. Now of course this idea isn't perfect as it would put Fox not at the top of the tier list which seems to be a must have in PM, but if you think about, Fox doesn't win big events and even if he does, he was most likely a fox player from melee who has been playing the game for upwards of 10 years. To the wario question of whether or not he is top tier, I would say he isn't top tier as he fairly hard to play and most of his skills will not transfer to other characters, but can still score results from the unknown factor plus the fact that he is balanced.

 

[Yallo42]

I do think Wario is easier to play than a lot of characters, but I don't think he is overpowered.
Pro- strong combos, lots of mixups, good grab, good throws, good edgeguard, and decent recovery
Con- no projectile, no reflect, bad dash dance, not great approach, short range, big

 

[Venom_909]

Nah, you're right. Wario makes people mad, but he's very well balanced. He just makes people mad because he exposes people's bad habits in the worst ways.

Im actually one the more vocal ones against wario on the socal page. Ive never stated hes OP. Simply put he ignores a lot of mechanics in the game i disagree with. Im cool with a character being strong but when it comes to bypassing mechanics completely its gets old fast.

ex Getting grabbed at the ledge is a huge misplay as falcon and results in a stock loss against most. Getting grabbed at center stage by wario results in the same exact issue. Spins your ass alllll the way to the ledge ignoring stage positioning completely.

His Up Throw is next to impossible to DI out of and sets up for chain grabs and later free waft follow ups. Im all good for characters doing well vs fastfallers. Even being a cp. Just wish it wasnt so polarizing and boring to watch a wario vs a spacie.

Then again i come from melee where you either

A) Get combod for your mistakes and watch the follow ups.

B) Get grabbed by the ledge and gimped for your bad stage positioning.

Also Nairs hitting people even when you miss where you thought they were going to be is funny.

Watching wario throw a spacie off stage. Nair the illusion option and still hit the shine stall / up b with that same nair is cool.

I already know there will be a bunch of Rebuttals on how wario struggles against CPs. Personally i think Falcons prolly one of warios worst mus. And thats a mu where you have amazing gimp game against one the weaker recoveries in the game. Also being able to 0-death on your openings I cant rationalize why its thatttttt bad of a MU. Yes i win Neutral. Yes I hit hard. But you can hit me just as hard in a combo and completely destroy me offstage. Ive been leaning towards closer to a 50/50 MU.

Marth wins Neutral in melee but falcon hits Marth harder. Ive always said Its in falcons favor in melee. wario / falcon feels very similar. I do think its in Falcons favor but slightly if anything.

 

[Anime]

Going through your list: Back throw is really good for putting people off stage and making them panic, but not much else. He doesn't have any follow ups on most of the cast, and it's only good against fast fallers. I'm not a huge fan of it personally, and never use it, except for really janky **** (B-throwing someone on the moving platform on yoshi's island to sd kill). I'm not a huge fan of it personally and wouldn't mind it changing.

His upthrow is very good, especially against fast fallers. But he really needs it against most of them, especially fox. The only fast fallers he beats are Diddy and Lucas. The rest (Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Roy, and Meta Knight I guess?) ****s on Wario in neutral. Wario is by no means a safe cp to any of the spacies. I mean, even in melee a lot of low tier characters can destroy fox if they get one decent touch, but that's a big if. Counter picking wario against fox is like counter picking puff against fox. Upthrow rest is cool for you, but the remainder sucks.

Wario does have excellent edgeguarding abilities. But we can also get gimped pretty easily. About the same as Captain Falcon, actually. That just seems like a fair trade off for me.

In regards to the Falcon Wario matchup, I don't get what you are saying. You say it's one of our worst matchups, but then you say it's 50-50? I mean we can both beat the **** out of each other, but your neutral kind of wrecks ours. It's probably 60-40. Unless that counts as slight win for you? In which case all of Wario's mus are in that range.

 

[OrientalAmazing]

Honestly for me Wario is like a glass cannon.

Incredible grab combos, chomp into basically anything, kill power, speed, aerial mobility.

Not TOO good recovery, pretty easily gimpable, shielded side b is the death of you and pretty wide character so he can get combo'd alot (even though he does have pretty quick moves to get out of combos)

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly for me Wario is like a glass cannon.

yes i like my glass cannons with 107 weight

let's be real though wario is only OP because @Strong Bad made him

 

[Anime]

Yeah, if he gets sent high, he can keep coming back from pretty high percents. He's more of a comeback monster. His neutral is not great, and he's a good combo weight for a lot of characters, but holy **** fart combos are ridiculous.

 

[Venom_909]

Going through your list: Back throw is really good for putting people off stage and making them panic, but not much else. He doesn't have any follow ups on most of the cast, and it's only good against fast fallers. I'm not a huge fan of it personally, and never use it, except for really janky **** (B-throwing someone on the moving platform on yoshi's island to sd kill). I'm not a huge fan of it personally and wouldn't mind it changing.

His upthrow is very good, especially against fast fallers. But he really needs it against most of them, especially fox. The only fast fallers he beats are Diddy and Lucas. The rest (Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Roy, and Meta Knight I guess?) ****s on Wario in neutral. Wario is by no means a safe cp to any of the spacies. I mean, even in melee a lot of low tier characters can destroy fox if they get one decent touch, but that's a big if. Counter picking wario against fox is like counter picking puff against fox. Upthrow rest is cool for you, but the remainder sucks.

Wario does have excellent edgeguarding abilities. But we can also get gimped pretty easily. About the same as Captain Falcon, actually. That just seems like a fair trade off for me.

In regards to the Falcon Wario matchup, I don't get what you are saying. You say it's one of our worst matchups, but then you say it's 50-50? I mean we can both beat the **** out of each other, but your neutral kind of wrecks ours. It's probably 60-40. Unless that counts as slight win for you? In which case all of Wario's mus are in that range.

Ummmmmmm Wario poops all over spacies. Even Sosa has said its a 70-30 MU for Wario and close to unwinnable for falco. That is a complete fact....

He Also has advantage against fox but hes not sure by how much.

The only one on paper i think would actually be pretty decent vs wario is wolf due to having a better recovery then falcos. Access to similar laser lock down in neutral and a more juggle oriented combo structure that has options to kill off the top. Ive yet to use my wolf vs Sosa tho.

I was stating that i think it is IF anything in falcons favor but more likely closer to a 50/50. I dont think wario has any eyesore bad MUs just slightly more annoying ones to fight. IE falcon in Neutral. Imo its a 55/45 MU in falcons favor if anything at all.

The only thing Meh on wario is his up B distance but due to his Air Mobility his recovery is pretty amazing. On the higher end of the spectrum. His Air dodge alone can be super safe and change where you wanna go 3 times lol.


Again I dont think hes OP just would like some the stuff toned down a bit. Up throw can still follow up just dont make it as free looking as Gannons chaingrabs

 

[Anime]

Ummmmmmm Wario poops all over spacies. Even Sosa has said its a 70-30 MU for Wario and close to unwinnable for falco. That is a complete fact....

He Also has advantage against fox but hes not sure by how much.

The only one on paper i think would actually be pretty decent vs wario is wolf due to having a better recovery then falcos. Access to similar laser lock down in neutral and a more juggle oriented combo structure that has options to kill off the top. Ive yet to use my wolf vs Sosa tho.

Except I've never seen any other wario player say that about spacies. Hell, a lot of **** Sosa has said about wario's matchups are pretty out there. Fox has really good combos on Wario, can always force wario to approach cause lasers, and his nair beats out all our **** except bair. And then when it comes to punish game waveshines, up smash and up air sucks ****. Most wario players put that mu as worse than marth. (I personally love playing against marth. More than every other melee characters. But I guess that's just me)

Falco probably is our best matchup of the 3, because he gets destroyed by our edgeguards/ punish game, but laser lock down plus our recovery make it rough. I've seen people put it everywhere between 50-50 to 60-40 falco's way, but never 70-30 us. If it's that good for us for the reasons given, it must be 80-20 for rob and game and watch.

Speaking of wario's recovery, the best thing about wario when coming back to the stage is his air mobility. You can weave in and out to get back, and air dodge does ad mixups that are baller. But if I have to come from low, or use a b move from any reason most characters can beat the linear up-b from ledge, and every character can beat the side-b (it has a slight reverse disjoint).

Wolf would be in the middle between the two, for the reasons you gave. Plus you have a sort of chain grab/di trap on wario that's kind of annoying.

What's consistent for all three is that wario has a hard time grabbing them as well. Fox and wolf are to fast to get reliably grabbed by wario, unless they **** up bad. Falco is the easiest because laser approaches get ****ed up a lot, but still. If a falco doesn't play greedy the wario is always disadvantaged in neutral.

 

[Venom_909]

Except I've never seen any other wario player say that about spacies. Hell, a lot of **** Sosa has said about wario's matchups are pretty out there. Fox has really good combos on Wario, can always force wario to approach cause lasers, and his nair beats out all our **** except bair. And then when it comes to punish game waveshines, up smash and up air sucks ****. Most wario players put that mu as worse than marth. (I personally love playing against marth. More than every other melee characters. But I guess that's just me)

Falco probably is our best matchup of the 3, because he gets destroyed by our edgeguards/ punish game, but laser lock down plus our recovery make it rough. I've seen people put it everywhere between 50-50 to 60-40 falco's way, but never 70-30 us. If it's that good for us for the reasons given, it must be 80-20 for rob and game and watch.

Speaking of wario's recovery, the best thing about wario when coming back to the stage is his air mobility. You can weave in and out to get back, and air dodge does ad mixups that are baller. But if I have to come from low, or use a b move from any reason most characters can beat the linear up-b from ledge, and every character can beat the side-b (it has a slight reverse disjoint).

Wolf would be in the middle between the two, for the reasons you gave. Plus you have a sort of chain grab/di trap on wario that's kind of annoying.

What's consistent for all three is that wario has a hard time grabbing them as well. Fox and wolf are to fast to get reliably grabbed by wario, unless they **** up bad. Falco is the easiest because laser approaches get ****ed up a lot, but still. If a falco doesn't play greedy the wario is always disadvantaged in neutral.

Peoples opinions like that is what makes me never go on the boards tbh. I really question how much people understand the game or MUs in general. You can very objectively look at a MU and see how hard a character combos the other. How well they can recover. How often they win neutral.

Yes Falco can shoot lasers. But he gets very little off his combos and lacks kill power.

If you have an advantage in neutral but need to win it 8-10 times > the guy who gets 1 - 2 grabs or 1-2 chances and takes a stock. Unless the players who play these characters are so proficient to never lose neutral with the advantage in neutral they have the match up becomes rough. Especially with things like Grab armor and CC being as wonky as it is in PM.

A lot also plays into kill set ups. How do they confirm into their kill option. Falcon has many things that lead into knee which is what makes him so good. Fox as well.

Sosa does say some randy stuff but for the most part hes decent at evaluating his character. Hes said hes top 6 in the game which I can agree on.

Personally i think top 6 atm in no particular order are : Fox , Falcon , Diddy , Rob , Lucario , Wario.


Another example would be Royal who played Santi - aka Lil Fumi the dude 13th on the melee PR whos an amazing spacie player. He beat Santi with wario and goes ya sorry that MU is like 90-10 haha . Royal is a mid level player whos yet to come out of his shell

 

[Anime]

Grab armor is worse than it is in melee. The only difference is the person grabbing takes damage, where in melee they dont. It's just more noticeable.

And Wario ****s on melee players that don't know the matchup. It's always been that way. If they know what wario is trying to do, it becomes way harder.

And I remember Sosa's matchup chart he posted a ways back. He had a lot of characters as good mu's for Wario, which are commonly thought of as bad, and vice versa. Idk, I do think he is the best wario player currently, but even just watching him play I don't see what you are talking about.

 

[OrientalAmazing]

I freaking hate grab armor with a passion

 

[0RLY]

His skill ceiling is low, so he's easy to pick up and play. That makes low level players think he's really good, but it makes high level players think he's bad. His limits are quite clear cut, so it's never "the character" beating you, it's always the player. I believe he's hovering around 10th place. Not quite top tier, but somewhere on the edge of viability in national tourney settings.