Is there really no hope for this character?

KenMeister

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As frustrated as I am with how bad this character's flaws are which leave him super vulnerable to getting lamed out by the majority of the cast at high level, pessimism aside Kirby is without a doubt my favorite character in the game to play competitively, and his weird footsies playstyle makes it hard for me to translate effectively into other characters, and he's helped me a lot in developing patience and a better neutral, so I don't regret maining this character. That being said, is the character really this bad, like bottom 10/15 bad? Is there really no hope for progression in this character's meta? Have players like @MikeKirby truly capped out this character? Does Kirby just get completely shut down by perfect spacing? Am I over exaggerating? I really hate this see what little relevancy this character has left just slip away because I've never enjoyed anyone as much as I did with Kirby, and it's been difficult trying to find a switch without sacrificing a lot in the process. =\
 
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Oracle_Summon

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Kirby does get outclassed in range and mobility when it comes to fights. His lacking of high speed characteristics makes his trade off for being lightweight a negative.

Do I believe Kirby is feasible? In some ways, but you have to work extremely hard just to have a fighting chance against someone like Pikachu who has the speed advantage, naturally.

What Kirby could have used was a good gimping projectile provided by one of his abilities.
 

KenMeister

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:4sheik::4zss::4fox::4falcon::4lucario::4villager::4ryu:

Most of these are even but still good counterpicks.
Falcon is a mid tier at this point in the meta, so Kirby winning that MU literally doesn't make much of a difference, I dunno how Lucario is but I guess its even, Fox we win slightly but everyone else a slight disadvantage. Do your damn research and actually play relevant players like I have.
 
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i can see kirbs probably falling to bottom 10 in the meta, tho having a good Fox MU will always mean he'll have some sort of worth as a counterpick. but Luigi is a better AND easier character to counterpick Fox with, so eh
 

|RK|

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Falcon is a mid tier at this point in the meta, so Kirby winning that MU literally doesn't make much of a difference, I dunno how Lucario is but I guess its even, Fox we win slightly but everyone else a slight disadvantage. Do your damn research and actually play relevant players like I have.
Oy, you over exaggerate based on your own limitations, man. Mario MU is the prime example - after complaining about it, you took the time to learn the MU and decided it wasn't that bad. Here's the thing - you're a good player, but you aren't on the same level as some of the relevant players you play, period.

Let's start from a different location - put up some if your matches against the characters you claim are -2 or worse for Kirby. Then let's see what can and can't be done. Because theory is only half the battle when it comes to figuring out characters.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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Falcon is a mid tier at this point in the meta, so Kirby winning that MU literally doesn't make much of a difference, I dunno how Lucario is but I guess its even, Fox we win slightly but everyone else a slight disadvantage. Do your damn research and actually play relevant players like I have.
Jeez, he might be a bit optimistic, but you are also putting it down harder than it is.

ZSS - Probably even, duck + combos + no more deaths at 60 make this matchup better than it was pre-patch (when people still had this debate). MikeKirby went to game 3 vs Nairo prepatch, and beat Larry's ZSS (his try at counterpicking when he lost as Fox). Not the best results but its something.

Ryu - Debatable. SGK beat Venom at a Montreal Major in a Bo5 in Kirby/Ryu, and while they arent top 10 players, its a top kirby vs a top ryu, so it counts.

Also, Villager could be even but I have no results to back this up (maybe someone else could find something?). Falcon/, while only being high-mid currently, is still relevant, so you can't say it doesn't matter.

Two other characters I can think of are Pikachu and Ness, both I rarely see people putting as losing MUs for us. (ESAM said Pika was even, i forgot which MU said Ness was even.)

You're trying to compare Kirby to a top tier's MU chart. You aren't realizing that -1 still isn't bad also, and that Kirby does have some relevant matchups. His matchups are theoretically good enough to make him not bottom 15. Just because Luigi does the Fox MU the same doesn't mean Kirby goes down in viability for it.

TLDR: Kirby has a better spread than the other bottom tier characters, -1 isnt bad, youre being too harsh (and should contemplate not using Kirby, as a negative view like this is sure to be harmful to your ability to play as him)
 

KenMeister

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Oy, you over exaggerate based on your own limitations, man. Mario MU is the prime example - after complaining about it, you took the time to learn the MU and decided it wasn't that bad. Here's the thing - you're a good player, but you aren't on the same level as some of the relevant players you play, period.

Let's start from a different location - put up some if your matches against the characters you claim are -2 or worse for Kirby. Then let's see what can and can't be done. Because theory is only half the battle when it comes to figuring out characters.
It's not like I fail hard vs these players, I've taken Ross and CrazieCuban, two of the best Tink players in Florida last stock, last hit, went a close 1-2 with Crabby, a Dark Pit player on the same level of BlueBeast who's beaten Roguepenguin, the best Mario player in Florida 2-0 in tourney, beat Florida's best Ganon (Hi-Hatz) 2-1 in tourney, and would often have close games with Saj's Peach,. I don't want to hear it. lol
 

|RK|

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It's not like I fail hard vs these players, I've taken Ross and CrazieCuban, two of the best Tink players in Florida last stock, last hit, went a close 1-2 with Crabby, a Dark Pit player on the same level of BlueBeast who's beaten Roguepenguin, the best Mario player in Florida 2-0 in tourney, beat Florida's best Ganon (Hi-Hatz) 2-1 in tourney, and would often have close games with Saj's Peach,. I don't want to hear it. lol
Not only is the bolded part a stretch, but close games are irrelevant. Especially as Saj is better with Bayo than Peach.

So that's Ganon - a character you play - and nearly beating TL players. Incidentally, you don't think Kirby gets destroyed by any of these characters. So, once again - videos would help. Let's see where the character can go without theory crafting.
 

KenMeister

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Not only is the bolded part a stretch, but close games are irrelevant. Especially as Saj is better with Bayo than Peach.

So that's Ganon - a character you play - and nearly beating TL players. Incidentally, you don't think Kirby gets destroyed by any of these characters. So, once again - videos would help. Let's see where the character can go without theory crafting.
You are aware that Saj mained Peach before Bayo right?
 

KenMeister

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Not only is the bolded part a stretch, but close games are irrelevant. Especially as Saj is better with Bayo than Peach.

So that's Ganon - a character you play - and nearly beating TL players. Incidentally, you don't think Kirby gets destroyed by any of these characters. So, once again - videos would help. Let's see where the character can go without theory crafting.
And close games mean everything, it means a character is capable of giving the main of a higher-leveled player a genuine run for their money and it not be a free MU, otherwise we wouldn't have KidGoggles brought up often for his match vs Mr R being so close despite not winning it.
 

|RK|

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You are aware that Saj mained Peach before Bayo right?
Yes. He gets better results with Bayo. Do you think his Peach was on the same level as Samsora's?

And close games mean everything, it means a character is capable of giving the main of a higher-leveled player a genuine run for their money and it not be a free MU, otherwise we wouldn't have KidGoggles brought up often for his match vs Mr R being so close despite not winning it.
When people make tier lists that use results as a factor, do they factor in "almost" wins? If MikeKirby and KidGoggles actually won against Mr. R and VoiD, how do you think people would perceive that MU?

As much as I appreciate using what happened in matches over match results alone, almost doesn't really count for much. Especially as we talk about player results.
 
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