Is there any match-ups that Doc can perform better than Mario in?

[Conet]

An interesting question I've been thinking about.

 

[moofpi]

I'm no Doc specialist, but I am a Mario man. I prefer Doc for the Lucario MU, because Mario just racks up damage but has a harder time killing which is a bad attribute against Lucario. Doc is heavier and harder to kill and kills easier, so I'd take it. I also prefer Doc against Game and Watch so he can't bucket anything and because Doc hits harder and G&W is paper.
But I still vastly prefer Mario in the Ness/Lucas MU because Fludd can kill them offstage really easy and can make it back if Fair'd offstage and keep up speedwise.

I'm not sure of too many of Doc-specific match ups though.

 

[KenMeister]

I'm no Doc specialist, but I am a Mario man. I prefer Doc for the Lucario MU, because Mario just racks up damage but has a harder time killing which is a bad attribute against Lucario. Doc is heavier and harder to kill and kills easier, so I'd take it. I also prefer Doc against Game and Watch so he can't bucket anything and because Doc hits harder and G&W is paper.
But I still vastly prefer Mario in the Ness/Lucas MU because Fludd can kill them offstage really easy and can make it back if Fair'd offstage and keep up speedwise.

I'm not sure of too many of Doc-specific match ups though.

Actually, Doc and Mario are the same weight. Id much rather use Mario against Lucario since his frame data is enough to overwhelm him up close, and doesn't get walled or camped out like Doc does since he's alot more mobile. Lucario gets rekt by Mario IMO.

 

[moofpi]

Actually, Doc and Mario are the same weight.

That kind of sucks. He seems like he has a better short hop and falls faster, but I guess that's placebo.

 

[KenMeister]

That kind of sucks. He seems like he has a better short hop and falls faster, but I guess that's placebo.

Falling speed is the same too.

 

[Dokokashira]

That kind of sucks. He seems like he has a better short hop and falls faster, but I guess that's placebo.

Dr. Mario has less jump height and less air speed than Mario; the lower jump height is what gives him better short hops.

On-topic, it's pretty generalized, but I think that Dr. Mario has generally better matchups against the more extremely-weighted characters (as in, really light or really heavy), while Mario has generally better matchups against characters that have average weight. (For reference, I main Dr. Mario and never play a scrap of Mario, so a lot of my Mario judgments may be inaccurate.)

Against lighter characters, if Dr. Mario slowly racks up damage with Megavitamins and occasional and plays it safe, he can get KOs around the 70%-90% range with fresh smashes. He honestly doesn't even need to do too many combos, as he can get to KO range very soon. Against a light character (especially those with good aerial mobility), Dr. Mario can focus on getting damage bit by bit while maintaining a defensive playstyle, and then go for in a KO when the opponent is vulnerable. Regular Mario, on the other hand, I would say needs to do combos, as playing like Dr. Mario won't allow him to get to KO range as soon. Since a light character can DI out of combos easily, Mario is put in a bit of a tight spot. However, against a character, like, say, Jigglypuff, Mario has a big advantage over Dr. Mario in that he's able to recover against and fight edgeguarding better due to the aforementioned better jump height and air speed.

Against heavier characters, both of them are able to unleash combos that can be hard to escape. Dr. Mario has a bit of an advantage since his combos are slightly more damaging, and he can do them to the same extent as Mario thanks to his opponent's weight. (He can also use unique tools like his up smash to start combos, which Mario lacks.) Dr. Mario can also KO them much faster and sooner (earliest being 110%-130% from my experience) than Mario can, which I can imagine is a problem for Mario players against heavyweights. With heavyweights with big hurtboxes, like Bowser, Dr. Mario can also land a really strong KO move in his forward air a lot easier.

Against average-weight characters, Mario generally has it easier, as Mario's strengths in his balance of offstage and onstage play and combo ability come out, while Dr. Mario's flaw in his lack of reliable offstage ability and mobility show. Of course, this isn't to say either one automatically has a better matchup based on weight; there's so many factors besides weight that mean a matchup. As for specific matchups where Dr. Mario's differences shine, I think that Mr. Game & Watch (as said before), Mewtwo, and maybe Bowser? I'm not too experienced in specific matchups at this point in time, so I can't say for sure.

If I said anything incorrect, feel free to correct me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

imo Doc is generally better against short characters (way superior RAR SH B-air), and floaties (Jab2 -> Up-B).

Also Doc is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Mario on Battlefield because Mario actually just takes forever to kill you if you platform camp, while Doc actually has respectable air KO moves like his Up-B or stronger B-air. Mario however does better on FD where there's more space for him to use his mobility.

 

[NGUY (guitarstage)]

Dr mario better vs large hurtboxes. And mario vs most of the top tiers.

 

[Gidy]

I feel like Doc can do better then mario against Ness because Up B out of ness's PKFire is much more deadly and has a lot more shield pushback then mario's up b out of PKFire. It's also risky for ness to go off stage so he won't be edgeguarding doc as much as other characters and doc's shorter short hop makes it easier to approach ness with aerials

 

[SPoitter]

Doc beats Pikachu better because of having a couple of more mixups and kill moves.

 

[KenMeister]

The only one I can think of is Kirby due to trading better and having a more ideal short hop height. That's about all I can think of.

 

[Denzill7]

I feel that Mario fares a bit better than Doctor Mario in the Game and Watch MU because unless you just sit there spamming b, bucket is going to get punished every time they pull it out. And considering Game and Watch's good edge guarding ability, Doc dies a lot sooner than Mario, so the trade off of dying faster for killing faster makes that sort of advantage negligible. A good G&W is also gonna space their fairs and bairs to the point where Dr. Mario can't punish him very well, where as Mario can.

 

[Coolwhip]

Someone....

Give me some pros & cons against Kirby. (Need to learn the match-up)

 

[MistressRemilia]

I believe we do better vs:
- Lucario
- Sonic & Rosalina ( Same reason being how Tornado is useful in this matchup )
- Small characters: Pikachu, Kirby, Game&Watch, Jigglypuff

I might miss some of them but i don't have experience vs all characters.

 

[Puff-Man]

I believe we do better vs:
- Lucario
- Sonic & Rosalina ( Same reason being how Tornado is useful in this matchup )
- Small characters: Pikachu, Kirby, Game&Watch, Jigglypuff

I might miss some of them but i don't have experience vs all characters.

Mario does better against Puff.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Mario does better against Puff.

Not sure about that but, if you say so.

 

[Puff-Man]

Not sure about that but, if you say so.

Dr.Mario's recovery is worse than Mario's. Meaning it is easier to edge guard Dr.Mario easier.

 

[Coolwhip]

Dr.Mario's recovery is worse than Mario's. Meaning it is easier to edge guard Dr.Mario easier.

You're right about Doc's recovery being worse. But I wouldn't sleep on it.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Dr.Mario's recovery is worse than Mario's. Meaning it is easier to edge guard Dr.Mario easier.

That doesn't automatically make it easier to deal with Doc than Mario. Doc has other tools and advantages (short hop is really good against smaller characters). I haven't fought many Jigglypuffs (probably four in total on For Glory, and I don't have the time to set up a Smash Ladder account), but I can see it being slightly (ever so slightly) better for Mario because of his mobility. Doc has Tornado though.

 

[Puff-Man]

That doesn't automatically make it easier to deal with Doc than Mario. Doc has other tools and advantages (short hop is really good against smaller characters). I haven't fought many Jigglypuffs (probably four in total on For Glory, and I don't have the time to set up a Smash Ladder account), but I can see it being slightly (ever so slightly) better for Mario because of his mobility. Doc has Tornado though.

It is true that Doc has a better short hop but that still doesn't matter that much it is only a slight difference. Tornado is a pretty good tool against Puff but if it was baited or blocked it can easily get punished.

 

[sjb.dario]

It is true that Doc has a better short hop but that still doesn't matter that much it is only a slight difference. Tornado is a pretty good tool against Puff but if it was baited or blocked it can easily get punished.

I personally think it's going to be hard to bait tornadoes out of good doc players. Tornado is a bit of a risk move, so doc players who know this won't just spam it that much and will only use it when they really think their tornado is going to hit. And if it misses, they could just maneuver out and land in a safe distance. This is obviously not going end well against fast characters, but I don't think puff is fast enough to punish Doc's tornado properly.

Well, that is my thought. If anyone disagrees, feel free to reply. I'm interested in how the Doc v Puff matchup looks.

 

[Denzill7]

I personally think it's going to be hard to bait tornadoes out of good doc players. Tornado is a bit of a risk move, so doc players who know this won't just spam it that much and will only use it when they really think their tornado is going to hit. And if it misses, they could just maneuver out and land in a safe distance. This is obviously not going end well against fast characters, but I don't think puff is fast enough to punish Doc's tornado properly.

Well, that is my thought. If anyone disagrees, feel free to reply. I'm interested in how the Doc v Puff matchup looks.

Yeah. Tornado isn't a good move to throw out against Puff, because he doesn't get the Luigi effect of having it cover lots of area on the ground, so he gets punished. I think short hop bair has better coverage for Puff's aerial approaches than Mario. In terms of getting edgeguarded, both characters can run into trouble quickly if they don't have their double jump, but Doc is still inferior in that category. Doc's speed isn't necessarily an issue in this MU because Puff comes to him, and Puff is also slow on the ground. I mean, Doc kills her earlier. I think it's a little bit better for Doc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doc has the advantage vs Mario due to better trades and edgeguards, and he does better against most light floaty characters due to Jab cancel -> Up-B and less iffy D-throw U-air strings.

Plus his lower short hop helps a lot against short characters like Ness and Diddy.

 

[DoubleReed]

Puff may kill the doctor easier, but the doctor kills puff easier as well. So it might come out pretty similar, just different playstyles.

 

[Underhill]

I say that Dr Mario does better against Luigi than Mario. Slighty advantage for Luigi before the down throw nerf. I say even or still slighty in Luigi's favor because of Doc being combo-food for him, gimping him, having a better recovery, has the ground mobility to keep up with Doc since he's slow, and has better frame data.
Doc can break out of Luigi's combos better than Mario with n-air and his strong up-b; He can edgeguard Luigi better than Mario off stage since he got the tornado, n-air, b-air, and sheet. Plus, his kill options and damage output are better than Mario so Doc can keep with Luigi's ko potential and damage. His pills won't let Luigi approach for free along with SH aerials. OOS options are better than Mario along with traction(but the same as Mario's though) than Luigi's.

Also . Doc can kill DK better than Mario, gimp better, combo work alittle more than Mario's, has the damage output to keep up with DK, rage can help with kills, set-ups, and even combos against the kong. I'll say that the MU is even, maybe because Doc still has to deal with his range, edgeguards, and his mobility is slower than Mario.

 

[zakzedd]

I feel that the mu against falcon is better. Mario's down-throw allows falcon to di down and shield for no follow up. Dr. Mario leads into an up-smash for days, you can even link them together to get from 0 to 40 in five seconds, but that's not guaranteed. Because falcon is heavy fast faller, down-throw follow up work much longer and are easier on him compared to other characters.

But since mario is faster it's a bit harder to keep up with falcon.

 

[DJSKRELP]

I feel Doc does better against players who do not understand Doc. A lot of those that are unfamiliar to him will drop shield against Doc's tornado, giving him a free approach.