Is Roy considered OP in the 3.6 update?

[Balsoid]

I know a lot of people thought he was op in the 3.5 version, but is that still the case?

 

[Parz]

People are dumb if they still consider Roy in top 10 imo

 

[Deleted member]

idk if roy is top ten, but hes probably just outside of that. being able to trump the dd mirror in a meta based mostly around dd is really good

 

[G13_Flux]

honestly its not out of the question that he is still top ten. in fact i think he ranks somewhere around that 10 spot, give or take a few. No hes certainly not OP. He honestly wasnt even too OP in 3.5, he just had weird recovery hangtime that made ledge hogging him terribly difficult, and in turn, meant he got back to the ledge a lot. His relevant counters also werent that relevent in 3.5. he also seriously threatened CCers with the KB on his dtilt, even at the tip.

atm, roy still has a very threatening neutral, an amazing punish game, and tons of possible kill conversions. He just has some MUs that are clearly counters to him, which is a little less representative of other characters in the top tier (they typically dont have many bad MUs, and rarely have strong counters).

 

[BoyBloodRoy]

honestly its not out of the question that he is still top ten. in fact i think he ranks somewhere around that 10 spot, give or take a few. No hes certainly not OP. He honestly wasnt even too OP in 3.5, he just had weird recovery hangtime that made ledge hogging him terribly difficult, and in turn, meant he got back to the ledge a lot. His relevant counters also werent that relevent in 3.5. he also seriously threatened CCers with the KB on his dtilt, even at the tip.

atm, roy still has a very threatening neutral, an amazing punish game, and tons of possible kill conversions. He just has some MUs that are clearly counters to him, which is a little less representative of other characters in the top tier (they typically dont have many bad MUs, and rarely have strong counters).

may i ask what those match ups are?

 

[G13_Flux]

B BoyBloodRoy

DK, DDD, zard are 3 right off the bat. the main threat they pose to roy is the distance they are capable of CCing him at, and for how long they can do it beause of their weight. a lot of roys important spacing tools arent quite safe, like dtilt and ftilt. in the case of DK and DDD, roy is also generally forced to approach them. DK is fine with camping because he can charge his neutral b, and DDD can usually out camp most from the air with his waddle dees. going along with that, both characters get a lot of reward off a grab on roy. with zard, the camping scenario doesnt get him much reward, but he does sport a much faster speed on the ground, coupled with long ranged normals that can compete with roy. again, his punish game on roy is very good, especially off a grab, and roy has nothing to attack zards greatest weakness, projectiles.

to sum it up, since these characters have such an effective CC game on roy, and spacing options that are either superior, or can at least compete with roys, it makes it very hard for roy to get a proper punish. additionally, their punish games on roy are very very good, and they will live a lot longer from the punishes that roy gets because of their weight.

Yoshi is another character that i would say counters roy, for similar reasons of spacing options like dtilt, a heavy weight, and a good punish game. yoshi also happens to be nearly impossible to combo however,

there are other characters that roy doesnt do great against particularly, but i think those 4 should cover the main ones, and most others are a bit more marginal, as opposed to counters.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

While I do not have it, I heard that the 3.61 build changed Roy's Bair back to 3.5 and made the sweet spot easier to hit. What do you fellow Roy mains think about that? Do you prefer 3.5 Bair or 3.6 Bair?

 

[masterpad]

While I do not have it, I heard that the 3.61 build changed Roy's Bair back to 3.5 and made the sweet spot easier to hit. What do you fellow Roy mains think about that? Do you prefer 3.5 Bair or 3.6 Bair?

i prefer what ever is in pm3.6 backair. lets stop looking at other version than 3.6 and just start build up a strong meta

 

[BeyondBDS]

i prefer what ever is in pm3.6 backair. lets stop looking at other version than 3.6 and just start build up a strong meta

Nobody was trying to change the meta here. It was a question about 3.5. Calm down.

 

[masterpad]

Nobody was trying to change the meta here. It was a question about 3.5. Calm down.

ok, sorry. i am so afraid to see the pm community blow up...
smash palyers have some talent in hating other smash games players...for a community that striggled so hard to survive in the past this inner division is a frightening paradox

 

[Taytertot]

B BoyBloodRoy

DK, DDD, zard are 3 right off the bat. the main threat they pose to roy is the distance they are capable of CCing him at, and for how long they can do it beause of their weight. a lot of roys important spacing tools arent quite safe, like dtilt and ftilt. in the case of DK and DDD, roy is also generally forced to approach them. DK is fine with camping because he can charge his neutral b, and DDD can usually out camp most from the air with his waddle dees. going along with that, both characters get a lot of reward off a grab on roy. with zard, the camping scenario doesnt get him much reward, but he does sport a much faster speed on the ground, coupled with long ranged normals that can compete with roy. again, his punish game on roy is very good, especially off a grab, and roy has nothing to attack zards greatest weakness, projectiles.

to sum it up, since these characters have such an effective CC game on roy, and spacing options that are either superior, or can at least compete with roys, it makes it very hard for roy to get a proper punish. additionally, their punish games on roy are very very good, and they will live a lot longer from the punishes that roy gets because of their weight.

Yoshi is another character that i would say counters roy, for similar reasons of spacing options like dtilt, a heavy weight, and a good punish game. yoshi also happens to be nearly impossible to combo however,

there are other characters that roy doesnt do great against particularly, but i think those 4 should cover the main ones, and most others are a bit more marginal, as opposed to counters.

to add to that list id say fox and falco are difficult for roy though i wouldnt say they are straight counters, they just happen to be pretty strong in general and have faster paced neutrals then roy. they can also camp roy well and that forces roy to approach which gives both spacies a lot of options to work with in terms of mixups and pressure. but if roy gets a hold of them then roy also punishes the crap out of them and roy can outspace their normals.

rob also seems to be a character roy has a bit of struggle with because of his CCing, projectiles and good combo/edgeguard game, though again i wouldnt say rob is a hard counter to roy like the 3 heavies you mentioned.

I actually dont have too much trouble with yoshi but maybe im just ok with not getting off many combos before resetting to neutral (i was a brawl player for quite a while). i find that grabs, DD, dtilt if the situation allows for it and walling with a lot of fairs/nairs works well as long as you stay out of yoshi's djc approaches when walling. but i agree that yoshi can be troublesome for roy.

other then a couple mu's and ratio disagreements id say that the community mu chart is fairly spot on for roy. though i do disagree with link being bad for roy, DK being only -1 and snake being even.

 

[G13_Flux]

to add to that list id say fox and falco are difficult for roy though i wouldnt say they are straight counters, they just happen to be pretty strong in general and have faster paced neutrals then roy. they can also camp roy well and that forces roy to approach which gives both spacies a lot of options to work with in terms of mixups and pressure. but if roy gets a hold of them then roy also punishes the crap out of them and roy can outspace their normals.

rob also seems to be a character roy has a bit of struggle with because of his CCing, projectiles and good combo/edgeguard game, though again i wouldnt say rob is a hard counter to roy like the 3 heavies you mentioned.

I actually dont have too much trouble with yoshi but maybe im just ok with not getting off many combos before resetting to neutral (i was a brawl player for quite a while). i find that grabs, DD, dtilt if the situation allows for it and walling with a lot of fairs/nairs works well as long as you stay out of yoshi's djc approaches when walling. but i agree that yoshi can be troublesome for roy.

other then a couple mu's and ratio disagreements id say that the community mu chart is fairly spot on for roy. though i do disagree with link being bad for roy, DK being only -1 and snake being even.

yeah fox and falco arent really "good" for roy, but i do think they are close enough to even. wolf would be the worst of them imo. i think roy pretty cleanly beats link too.

Rob definitely falls into a similar category as DK, zard, and DDD, just to a lesser extent imo since roy has some moves that can outrange him moreso than the other 3.

yoshi could go either way.. i think it might be bad, but yoshi doesnt have a ton of ways to deal with CCing. djc fair is really the only one. plus he doenst have crazy invincibility anymore from parry. i dont really have enough MU experience to say.

For roy specifically, i think the community MU list is close. roy definitely cleanly beats falcon though (they have it as even), and they have him beating ivy as +2, which is wayyy too much. I also think roy beats ike by a bit (i personnally think ike is a tad over rated, though he is still a greatly designed character sitting comfortably in the upper half). and yes, DK is definitely -2

 

[Taytertot]

yeah fox and falco arent really "good" for roy, but i do think they are close enough to even. wolf would be the worst of them imo. i think roy pretty cleanly beats link too.

Rob definitely falls into a similar category as DK, zard, and DDD, just to a lesser extent imo since roy has some moves that can outrange him moreso than the other 3.

yoshi could go either way.. i think it might be bad, but yoshi doesnt have a ton of ways to deal with CCing. djc fair is really the only one. plus he doenst have crazy invincibility anymore from parry. i dont really have enough MU experience to say.

For roy specifically, i think the community MU list is close. roy definitely cleanly beats falcon though (they have it as even), and they have him beating ivy as +2, which is wayyy too much. I also think roy beats ike by a bit (i personnally think ike is a tad over rated, though he is still a greatly designed character sitting comfortably in the upper half). and yes, DK is definitely -2

i definitely agree though my experiences with wolf have been pretty positive for me so maybe the wolf's i play suck but i find wolf to be the easiest spacie to deal with. i feel like wolf's lasers can pretty easily be clanked out with SHFFL fairs and roy can CC shine as well as because wolf is the fastest faller i find myself having an easy time comboing him but idk no one i play is super dedicated to wolf. I actual have the most issues with falco just because i dont know how to deal with all his lasers in neutral.

i think roy does beat falcon but falcon does have tools to deal with roy and kill roy early. falcon's aerials, mainly dair and fair, arent CCable and hes got a better DD but all in all i agree.

I find ivy to probably be +1. theres a really good ivy in my scene who always beats me though its very obviously a skill gap rather then an mu issue.

i feel like dtilt and ftilt stuff ike's QD too easily and roy can just force ike to the ledge and box him out by shutting down his QD options so i agree that roy beats ike though im not sure id put it past +1 for us.

im still curious why people feel roy vs link is in link's favor or even. i dont find link's projectiles difficult to deal with and without link's projectiles he's got a pretty crappy neutral game and weaving in and out of projectiles to find a combo starter on link really isnt that hard since link is so committal with his normals though i do understand that link combos us hard if he gets started but the chart used to say -2 for link and i talked with the link boards and it was told from a link main that he felt it was -1 or even so it was bumped down though i still feel roy wins.

I have no idea why DK isnt -2, i dont know anyone who wouldnt agree that DK is probably roy's worst mu.

i also feel snake isnt that hard to fight so personally id say that's in roy's favor as well.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

i prefer what ever is in pm3.6 backair. lets stop looking at other version than 3.6 and just start build up a strong meta

I have no interest in 3.61 (except that sweet Awakening alt) I am all behind 3.6 and developing meta. I was shocked when I read that 3.61 reverted the Bair because I never thought it was necessary, nor heard any other Roy mains ask for it back. So I was merely wondering what the community thought about it.

 

[Charmilio]

short version: no.

long version: noooooooo.

 

[Taytertot]

I have no interest in 3.61 (except that sweet Awakening alt) I am all behind 3.6 and developing meta. I was shocked when I read that 3.61 reverted the Bair because I never thought it was necessary, nor heard any other Roy mains ask for it back. So I was merely wondering what the community thought about it.

my only guess would be that the DT felt that the hitbox in 3.6 was a little too good but idk what the difference feels like since they didnt make it exactly the same as 3.5 bair.

 

[Charmilio]

my only guess would be that the DT felt that the hitbox in 3.6 was a little too good but idk what the difference feels like since they didnt make it exactly the same as 3.5 bair.

has anyone done frame data on 3.61 yet? or is there a changelog with the d/l? I haven't downloaded it yet but I'd like to see the numbers.

 

[G13_Flux]

I have no interest in 3.61 (except that sweet Awakening alt) I am all behind 3.6 and developing meta. I was shocked when I read that 3.61 reverted the Bair because I never thought it was necessary, nor heard any other Roy mains ask for it back. So I was merely wondering what the community thought about it.

Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Also, I can confirm that 3.61 bair is modified. It doesn't have as much of an arc upwards (ie, above is head) , but the sweet spot reaches further out, giving it a larger horizontal sweep of area. There's also no chance of a sour spot on the reverse hit as well. I've tested it in brawl box . it does retain its 45 degree, 3.6 angle though. Everything else looks the same at first glance, though I'm gonna do a more detailed comparison between 3.61 and 3.6 after my finals are over.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

Out of curiosity, where did you read that? Also, I can confirm that 3.61 bair is modified. It doesn't have as much of an arc upwards (ie, above is head) , but the sweet spot reaches further out, giving it a larger horizontal sweep of area. There's also no chance of a sour spot on the reverse hit as well. I've tested it in brawl box . it does retain its 45 degree, 3.6 angle though. Everything else looks the same at first glance, though I'm gonna do a more detailed comparison between 3.61 and 3.6 after my finals are over.

I read the change log that was posted on r/smashbros. Sorry I don't have time to get the link at the moment but I'm sure a quick google search will find it.

 

[G13_Flux]

alright i found it haha. It looks like there really werent many balance changes. for roy, the 3.61 bair seems to be the best iteration. however, for all practical purposes, i dont feel that difference will come into play much. its not very often that you are that close to being on the brink of a bair kill that the sweetspot adjustment will make a difference. sometimes, but not very often at all. The 45 degree angle in 3.6 (and 3.61) is a good thing mainly so FFers cant DI that far up to survive longer anymore.

honestly, 3.61 could be used and just passed for 3.6. it really just has minor clean up things. characters like pit and link did get upsmashes that link a tad better, but most other characters just got things fixed to work properly, and some characters kind of need the patch to function without terrible glitches. it wont have a dfferent meta though.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

alright i found it haha. It looks like there really werent many balance changes. for roy, the 3.61 bair seems to be the best iteration. however, for all practical purposes, i dont feel that difference will come into play much. its not very often that you are that close to being on the brink of a bair kill that the sweetspot adjustment will make a difference. sometimes, but not very often at all. The 45 degree angle in 3.6 (and 3.61) is a good thing mainly so FFers cant DI that far up to survive longer anymore.

honestly, 3.61 could be used and just passed for 3.6. it really just has minor clean up things. characters like pit and link did get upsmashes that link a tad better, but most other characters just got things fixed to work properly, and some characters kind of need the patch to function without terrible glitches. it wont have a dfferent meta though.

Cool. I read the change log and you are right, just some slight fixes. However I think the whole TO's banning any 3.61 content will definitely hinder it's mainstream growth, well at least anything recorded...

 

[SSG SAX GAMER]

He really isn't, sweetspotting with him (especially landing spikes) is pretty difficult. With marth you can just do a down air from a distance but with roy you can only really do it if they falling above you.