Is Rosalina DHD's worst mathup?

[Sensane]

Edit: Before you post for the first time here, I just want you to know that I dropped duck hunt a while ago, so if you have any advice, spread it elsewhere, or use this post as a part of the MU thread (heck, I'll even let the Rosalina boards use this thread if they want to). This was also when I was a newbie on the boards. It was quite an awkward ride for me, but I digress. Nevertheless, I'm pretty happy that this has actually grabbed the attention of others. So, thanks for all of your amazing advice, and like you guys say, Bark! Quack! Boom!

-signed,
NecromanceRr, the new Sensane.

P.S. I know that I need premium to change my name, and I will get it one day, but I'm kinda low on money right now, but soon.....

Original post:

At least I think it is (if not than second worst behind Sheik because.....it's Sheik). I just can't find any tools that Duck Hunt has that could reliably counter Rosalina. All of his projectiles are affected by Gravitational Pull, and even then, the Luma can just absorb the projectiles like nothing happened. Speaking of which, Duck Hunt has trouble reliably knocking out the Luma not just due Duck Hunt's lack of really strong killing moves, but also because his smash attacks are at their best in the final shot, which can be tricky to even hit the Luma with. The closest thing to an advantage for DH would be Rosy's lightweight, but like I said, Duck Hunt has a lack of good kill moves outside of his Smash attacks.

I say this because I've practiced my Duck Hunt against level 9 CPU top tier characters, and Rosalina was the one where I felt the most helpless in a way and I feel that she is his worst matchup. Sheik may be worse, but still. Any tips to fight Rosalina with Duck Hunt, or am I right about this?

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I've fought For Glory Rosalinas that exploit every trick in the book... and beat them. Rosalina, ironically, isn't DHD's worst match up. It's actually, in my opinion, Little Mac.

Rosalina is extremely tricky to beat at first because it requires you reverse your approach: I imagine you're doing projectiles at long range and trying to fight at close range, right?

This is the wrong approach ('say what?!' I hear you say). You need to reverse your tactics

Think of every Rosalina as human: they have human reactions. So the gravitational pull is least effective... at close range. The closer you are, the less time Rosalina has to react - so classically you'll want to do frisbee landings or frisbees when close. Gunmen can work at any range because their times vary but they work best mid-to-close. Don't bother with cans as Luma explodes them (unless Luma is capped or Rosalina is jumping towards you).

Even IF Rosalina gets gravitational pull in at this range... she's still open! Win-win!

And, as it so happens, when Rosalina is furthest away, is when you want to do your close range attacks. Seems paradoxical, right? Wrong! Rosalina will be expecting projectiles at long range, so classically they will try to use gravitational pull: as it so happens, close range moves counter this the best. If you rush a Rosalina expecting a projectile, they mess up their game. You mess with their heads.

What about Luma? Well, again, you reverse your approach: you probably treat Luma as a mere inconvenience, right? This is the wrong approach. Treat Luma like you would Popo out of the ice-climbers: Luma is a target, because when Luma gets killed, Rosalina becomes MUCH weaker. Don't priorise Luma over Rosalina, but instead, if Rosalina is opposite side and Luma is near you... cap Luma.

Forward smash As, cans, and frisbees will all do damage to Luma, and eventually Luma will just KO (an attack done right will kill Luma in one move). This completely closes down Rosalina's options (because she can't cover distance, nor protect herself from grabs or attacks).


Once you reverse your approach (projectiles up close, close range attacks at distance) you will suddenly find the playing field just 'levels out'. Rosalina is still dangerous, though: up airs, down airs, and smash attacks should all be dodged like you would Bowser (don't bother attacking in the air as she just overrides). But, you still want to use cans on aerial attacks (it's effectiveness varies).


Eventually, what you'll find is you'll sink into a rountine of trashing her dash attack with a frisbee which leads into a dash attack follow up, foward smash A'ing her Luma off stage, aerial forward air'ing her distant gravitational pull, and roll dodging or air dodging her power attacks on the ground/in the air.

As much as I hate Rosalina, I'd much rather fight a capable Rosalina than a capable Little Mac: the latter is truly difficult to beat due to character strengths (Rosalina just has poor hitbox detection and very strong moves).

 

[Sensane]

I've fought For Glory Rosalinas that exploit every trick in the book... and beat them. Rosalina, ironically, isn't DHD's worst match up. It's actually, in my opinion, Little Mac.

Rosalina is extremely tricky to beat at first because it requires you reverse your approach: I imagine you're doing projectiles at long range and trying to fight at close range, right?

This is the wrong approach ('say what?!' I hear you say). You need to reverse your tactics

Think of every Rosalina as human: they have human reactions. So the gravitational pull is least effective... at close range. The closer you are, the less time Rosalina has to react - so classically you'll want to do frisbee landings or frisbees when close. Gunmen can work at any range because their times vary but they work best mid-to-close. Don't bother with cans as Luma explodes them (unless Luma is capped or Rosalina is jumping towards you).

Even IF Rosalina gets gravitational pull in at this range... she's still open! Win-win!

And, as it so happens, when Rosalina is furthest away, is when you want to do your close range attacks. Seems paradoxical, right? Wrong! Rosalina will be expecting projectiles at long range, so classically they will try to use gravitational pull: as it so happens, close range moves counter this the best. If you rush a Rosalina expecting a projectile, they mess up their game. You mess with their heads.

What about Luma? Well, again, you reverse your approach: you probably treat Luma as a mere inconvenience, right? This is the wrong approach. Treat Luma like you would Popo out of the ice-climbers: Luma is a target, because when Luma gets killed, Rosalina becomes MUCH weaker. Don't priorise Luma over Rosalina, but instead, if Rosalina is opposite side and Luma is near you... cap Luma.

Forward smash As, cans, and frisbees will all do damage to Luma, and eventually Luma will just KO (an attack done right will kill Luma in one move). This completely closes down Rosalina's options (because she can't cover distance, nor protect herself from grabs or attacks).


Once you reverse your approach (projectiles up close, close range attacks at distance) you will suddenly find the playing field just 'levels out'. Rosalina is still dangerous, though: up airs, down airs, and smash attacks should all be dodged like you would Bowser (don't bother attacking in the air as she just overrides). But, you still want to use cans on aerial attacks (it's effectiveness varies).


Eventually, what you'll find is you'll sink into a rountine of trashing her dash attack with a frisbee which leads into a dash attack follow up, foward smash A'ing her Luma off stage, aerial forward air'ing her distant gravitational pull, and roll dodging or air dodging her power attacks on the ground/in the air.

As much as I hate Rosalina, I'd much rather fight a capable Rosalina than a capable Little Mac: the latter is truly difficult to beat due to character strengths (Rosalina just has poor hitbox detection and very strong moves).

Never thought of doing that. It's just that for the longest time I've played as characters who focus on close range attacks with no projectiles, so maybe I'll try this next time.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Never thought of doing that. It's just that for the longest time I've played as characters who focus on close range attacks with no projectiles, so maybe I'll try this next time.

I got brutally bludgeoned by dozens of Rosalinas. I got so angry I called them 'Spamalina and Tuna'. I still do.

Then one day I accidentally frisbee'd a dash and the Rosalina didn't counter. Then I twigged: they're not CPUs. Toss at close range.

As for canning them off the edge, it obviously won't work - deploy anyway, and when they gravity pull the can... forward air or back air them in the gut.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[Sensane]

Sonic and her are equally 8-2 MU's to DHD in my book.

If you think that than I think Fox would be an 8-2 as well since Fox is almost as fast and he has a projectile that prevents DHD from using his own because it almost forces the DHD player to fight up close.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Fox's laser isn't that effective. The frisbee takes 3 shots. If he reflects then you can bait the reflector for a dash attack punish opening.

The real issue comes with his close combat speed.

 

[Planty]

This is the largest oversimplification of Rosalina I've ever read. If you're going against one who does nothing except absorb absolutely everything, that should be a free win due to how easy it is to bait that out.

The only time when I down-B against DHD is to get rid of can traps or at long range where I'm sure it's safe (and I can't do anything else except jump, which is a poor option as Rosalina.) Otherwise, Gravitational Pull is the most overrated move in the game. It's good against item projectiles (like bombs), or trap based things (Can, Hydrant, that's it) and other than that, all it does is create a stalemate situation at long range(which doesn't benefit anyone unless you're going for a timeout, which is unlikely) and is useless at everything else. Heck actually goes 50:50 against Rosalina.

It is a good matchup for Rosalina, but not for the reasons you mentioned. Rosalina's main weakness (being only a tiny bit heavier than Jigglypuff) doesn't matter because DHD can't kill and in general, just can't do too much against a smart and patient Rosalina who walks and jabs a lot.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

This is the largest oversimplification of Rosalina I've ever read.

Of whose post? If you mean the OP's, that is a general playstyle regularly found within For Glory circles. If you mean mine, because that's how it happens.

 

[Planty]

Of whose post? If you mean the OP's, that is a general playstyle regularly found within For Glory circles. If you mean mine, because that's how it happens.

I would love to see a tournament level Rosalina Down-B when you're right in her face...

Your best option at a long range tends to be approaching with a can by shooting it while walking forward. That way you could cover many options. Can covers the jump. If she tries to absorb the can you could punish very easily. Can also baits shields, letting you get a grab off. Etc.

Also at the OP Sensane You should stop training against the CPU. They're not very good and the only reason they win is due to their frame 1 reaction speed. Play against real people if you want to get better.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I would love to see a tournament level Rosalina Down-B when you're right in her face...

Which is the whole reason why I said 'frisbee at close range'. No-one has the reaction times for it.

Most DHD's do long distance shots.

So I take it you were replying to my post? Because you didn't answer the question.

Your best option at a long range tends to be approaching with a can by shooting it while walking forward. That way you could cover many options. Can covers the jump. If she tries to absorb the can you could punish very easily. Can also baits shields, letting you get a grab off. Etc.

Nah, because that's not how can works. When you move forwards pressing B, you're doing a side-B, which means frisbee. So you have to shoot can, walk, shoot can, which leaves you juttery and open. Bad choice.

Better choice is to not projectile at distance at all. Keep it close range where reaction times work in your favour. I agree with Wispy's sentiment from another thread that gunmen work pretty well at distance due to their varied firing times between each guy, but any Rosalina on their game will have an idea of the different timings so it's suspect to memory practice.

Doing frisbee near close forces Rosalina into a choice: try to attack and possibly get shot when frisbee shot is active leaving open to combo, or gravity pull and remain open. Lose-lose. And if you're thinking jump - can steps in nicely to intercept.

 

[Sensane]

Also at the OP Sensane You should stop training against the CPU. They're not very good and the only reason they win is due to their frame 1 reaction speed. Play against real people if you want to get better.

I've stopped playing against the CPU. Despite the advantages it can have, it's overall not very good. In my defense though I am sort of a new DHD player and I don't really have anyone to consistently play against (or at least at my level).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is probably one of Duck Hunt's more frustrating match-ups, since Gravitational Pull counters Trick Shot and Clay Shooting. This pretty much leaves Duck Hunt with Wild Gunman, which is the only projectile move in the duo's arsenal that isn't affected by Gravitational Pull.

Now, I'm not saying that Duck Hunt downright loses to Rosalina, but having their stage control options contained by a single move really limits what Duck Hunt can do against her.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[De Wolfe]

Sonic must be DHD's hardest matchup surely? Either him or Shiek.

 

[Big-Cat]

My general strategy with DHD is to use the projectiles as walls. In other words, their purpose is not to hit them with the projectiles - it's to make them scared of the projectiles. A Rosalina during Gravitational Pull is a sitting duck, Luma included. Distract with Clay Shot or Wild Gunman. You run the risk of the can exploding on you if you run up to her while this happens.

IMO, this general strategy with Rosalina is similar with other characters. Make them scared to approach you so you can approach them.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[Planty]

Rosalina is a 6:4 most likely, in her favor of course. The gunman gives us so much control over the stage, because once a gunman is used we can approach easily, forcing her into a shield/dodge for free damage on Luma, and if Rosa does DownB to try to absorb the bullet it's a free fair. We are extremely good at killing Luma, but Rosalina gains a huge advantage when she is below us because DH is relatively easy to juggle.

Or if you set a gunman down, she could like... turn around and shield. It's not Like DH gets anything out of a grab except complicated stuff or low % strings. Or she could just jump. It's not like DH should ever be catching Rosalina's landing if she has Luma.

And DH is not extremely good at killing Luma. I hear this from so many character boards. Luma is inherently easy to kill, but that doesn't make him easy to kill.
Good Rosalina players are capable of defending him well enough to survive for quite a bit. And DH options to kill Luma are unsafe. Try them out in a match and you're gonna get thrown offstage so Rosalina could stall for a bit or even get a free edgeguard on him. Like, if I'm missing something here for how DH can safely kill Luma, please tell me.

The only characters I could think of that make safe work of Luma are Link (F-tilt), Ganon (F-tilt), ZSS (Bair), Little Mac (F-tilt), and Ike (F-tilt, Bair, Fair). Oh and Shulk too if he uses MALLC. If every character could safely dispose of Luma, Rosalina would suck. But that's not the case.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[Planty]

Spacing with fair while the gunman is out is how to go about it.

Except you can't Fair her if Luma is there. Or she could stay at a range where a gunman spawn gets punished by the frame 6 dash attack.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I think Duck Hunt barely loses to Rosalina. Probably like 45:55

You can still zone Rosalina surprisingly enough. If she uses her absorption, she has to stay in place (stopping her movement towards you) and then you can just throw another projectile out.

It's also a big deal that she can't absorb bullets from the Gunmen and will get cleanly hit every time. By setting out gunmen in conjunction with your other projectiles, you can take her gravitational pull off the table. Not to say that the move doesn't have use for her in the match-up, but it doesn't nearly prevent DH from zoning her.

When you consider these elements along with the fact that Rosalina is a huge, floaty, and not-particularly-fast target; DH actually has an easier time playing his zoning game against Rosa then he does against a lot of other characters (Sonic, Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, and even Falco to name a few).

 

[Planty]

It's also a big deal that she can't absorb bullets from the Gunmen and will get cleanly hit every time. By setting out gunmen in conjunction with your other projectiles, you can take her gravitational pull off the table. Not to say that the move doesn't have use for her in the match-up, but it doesn't nearly prevent DH from zoning her.

That's why Rosalina stays at a range where a gunman spawn can be punished by a dash attack (sorta mid-range-ish) and harasses DH with jabs and starbits, which takes away a lot of his options. You're right about it not being terribly in Rosalina's favor, but you have to consider that this is pretty much the best positioning she could have in neutral when discussing the matchup.

 

[Shady Penguin]

That's why Rosalina stays at a range where a gunman spawn can be punished by a dash attack (sorta mid-range-ish) and harasses DH with jabs and starbits, which takes away a lot of his options. You're right about it not being terribly in Rosalina's favor, but you have to consider that this is pretty much the best positioning she could have in neutral when discussing the matchup.

Oh yeah, for sure. That's part of why I still think she wins it.

I just thought it was worth nothing that it is still possible to use your zoning tools against her effectively (more-so than against other certain characters).

 

[chaos11011]

I'm trying to optimize anti-Luma techniques and one thing I made a note on in Training Mode is that UTilt + Nair does a good job at sending Luma away. You can also follow the falling Luma and go for a DSmash or FSmash. You can set up situations with the UTilt by approaching with FAirs, for example. This is because, if the FAir tipper hits Rosalina & Luma, Rosa will be send back, but not Luma (every non Nair aerial will make Luma stay in place). You can then easily go for the UTilt + Nair. This set up should send Luma off stage whenever it's about a quarter of FD away from the ledge (and DH is facing the ledge).

Practice it though, as if done incorrectly, the UTilt won't send Luma upwards. I'm working on learning the spacing for it, though.

 

[Planty]

I'm trying to optimize anti-Luma techniques and one thing I made a note on in Training Mode is that UTilt + Nair does a good job at sending Luma away. You can also follow the falling Luma and go for a DSmash or FSmash. You can set up situations with the UTilt by approaching with FAirs, for example. This is because, if the FAir tipper hits Rosalina & Luma, Rosa will be send back, but not Luma (every non Nair aerial will make Luma stay in place). You can then easily go for the UTilt + Nair. This set up should send Luma off stage whenever it's about a quarter of FD away from the ledge (and DH is facing the ledge).

Practice it though, as if done incorrectly, the UTilt won't send Luma upwards. I'm working on learning the spacing for it, though.

THIS is the type of counterplay people need to learn and develop against Rosalina. Take note everyone reading.

Although Luma KB is actually based on its damage taken. If it takes enough damage, it'll be launched by stuff that couldn't launch it when it had more health. So when you say that only Nair will launch it, that's false.

 

[chaos11011]

https://youtu.be/CB_9lE3CiZE

I made a video explaining it some more! You can set up the free UTilt to Nair combo on Luma by using Fair, Bair, FTilt, and DTilt to separate Rosa from Luma (as Luma doesn't get launched by those moved)

And the KB thing is definitely true. I'll have to lab out some potential combo starters depending on Luma's HP then!

 

[DunnoBro]

Worst MU is fox. Rosa isn't that bad, at least she lets you set up and play neutral, fox doesn't. Sonic is also a candidate but more doable on certain stages. I'd say fox is consistently 65:35 vs DHD whereas sonic is 70:30 on fd/smashville and goes as low as 60:40 on bf/dreamland

 

[Jmon101]

Nah, because that's not how can works. When you move forwards pressing B, you're doing a side-B, which means frisbee. So you have to shoot can, walk, shoot can, which leaves you juttery and open. Bad choice.

Yup, well put. You can however roll and shoot the can at the same time if you need to move the can and DHD. This is a good little pocket tech that you should use sparingly or you're running the risk of being read. That being said, the times ive been punished , I usually also hit them with the can.

 

[Sensane]

Worst MU is fox. Rosa isn't that bad, at least she lets you set up and play neutral, fox doesn't. Sonic is also a candidate but more doable on certain stages. I'd say fox is consistently 65:35 vs DHD whereas sonic is 70:30 on fd/smashville and goes as low as 60:40 on bf/dreamland

Eyyyyyyyyy, do you still play Duck Hunt at all? The Smash wiki says that you're an inactive DHD player and play Mario instead. Just asking.

 

[chaos11011]

Nah, because that's not how can works. When you move forwards pressing B, you're doing a side-B, which means frisbee. So you have to shoot can, walk, shoot can, which leaves you juttery and open. Bad choice.

You can, however, foxtrot while moving the can. Super useful tool and it becomes less telegraphed and easier to do with practice.

 

[C0rvus]

I know this thread is old, but I was wondering what you guys think are MUs worth switching off of Duck Hunt for? Obviously he doesn't win a lot of MUs but which ones are just so unfun or difficult that you'd prefer an alternate? Fox seems like a candidate for sure, Rosalina to a lesser extent, and maybe Cloud.

 

[[SKS] Yung Lamppost]

I know this thread is old, but I was wondering what you guys think are MUs worth switching off of Duck Hunt for? Obviously he doesn't win a lot of MUs but which ones are just so unfun or difficult that you'd prefer an alternate? Fox seems like a candidate for sure, Rosalina to a lesser extent, and maybe Cloud.

Sheik, Fox, Diddy, and Olimar are all pretty tough to deal with. Honestly nearly every top tier is an annoying matchup