Is Melee really bad as people think it is

[adang18]

There has been several debates over Melee and the newer smash games with many players of the newer games generally disliking Melee but I can't help but wonder why that is.

1. Glitches. One of the reasons why Melee is hated is because of the use of so called glitches in competitive play but when you take a closer look there are very few glitches in competitive play. DI, SDI and L cancelling and Chain grabs are all intended mechanics (although Sakurai probably did not expect people to use it the way they did). Wobbling is an exploit of the grab mechanics. So the only real glitches are Wave dashing but that is only one tech it just has many applications. Also keep in mind that tech such as DACUS and perfect pivoting could both be categorised as glitches yet very few people claim they are. There also just as many mid tiers even low tiers who needs wave dashing more than the top tiers. The Ics, Luigi and Mewtwo are high, mid and low tier respectively but their Wave dashes are so good it invalidates the need of running. Yoshi is a mid tier character where wave dashing is an essential part of his meta as he needs it for his platform movement. Compare that to top tiers and high tiers such as Peach, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff and Pikachu who all have short wavedashes and out of all them Falcon is the only one that benefits from a short Wave dash as he can do Hax dashes. There are also some who believe that those who utilise tech in Melee have an unfair advantage but the problem with that is everybody has access to these options

2. Character balance. Melee does indeed have balancing issues but many tend to overexaggerate how bad it is. In Melee 14 out of 26 could be considered viable characters which is 60% of the cast as they have achieved high results at major tourneys with players of these characters placing high rankings in the rankings themselves. If you consider the rankings and placings for sm4sh 33 out of 55 characters could be considered viable which puts the percentage at 60% just like Melee or 34/55 which is 62% if you count dark pit as his own characters. This means that the character balance between the two games is quite similar and even if you considered outliers like pacman getting good results because of Sinji and therefore bottom tiers in sm4sh being just as viable as the rest of the cast, players like m2k have been high ranking players with Pichu and Roy but they are certainly not viable

So to sum it all up there should be no reason to dislike Melee other than personal preference as the problems which plague Melee also appear in other Smash games

 

[Zoa]

There has been several debates over Melee and the newer smash games with many players of the newer games generally disliking Melee but I can't help but wonder why that is.

1. Glitches. One of the reasons why Melee is hated is because of the use of so called glitches in competitive play but when you take a closer look there are very few glitches in competitive play. DI, SDI and L cancelling and Chain grabs are all intended mechanics (although Sakurai probably did not expect people to use it the way they did). Wobbling is an exploit of the grab mechanics. So the only real glitches are Wave dashing but that is only one tech it just has many applications. Also keep in mind that tech such as DACUS and perfect pivoting could both be categorised as glitches yet very few people claim they are. There also just as many mid tiers even low tiers who needs wave dashing more than the top tiers. The Ics, Luigi and Mewtwo are high, mid and low tier respectively but their Wave dashes are so good it invalidates the need of running. Yoshi is a mid tier character where wave dashing is an essential part of his meta as he needs it for his platform movement. Compare that to top tiers and high tiers such as Peach, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff and Pikachu who all have short wavedashes and out of all them Falcon is the only one that benefits from a short Wave dash as he can do Hax dashes. There are also some who believe that those who utilise tech in Melee have an unfair advantage but the problem with that is everybody has access to these options

2. Character balance. Melee does indeed have balancing issues but many tend to overexaggerate how bad it is. In Melee 14 out of 26 could be considered viable characters which is 60% of the cast as they have achieved high results at major tourneys with players of these characters placing high rankings in the rankings themselves. If you consider the rankings and placings for sm4sh 33 out of 55 characters could be considered viable which puts the percentage at 60% just like Melee or 34/55 which is 62% if you count dark pit as his own characters. This means that the character balance between the two games is quite similar and even if you considered outliers like pacman getting good results because of Sinji and therefore bottom tiers in sm4sh being just as viable as the rest of the cast, players like m2k have been high ranking players with Pichu and Roy but they are certainly not viable

So to sum it all up there should be no reason to dislike Melee other than personal preference as the problems which plague Melee also appear in other Smash games

Correction right quick, but wavedashing is an exploit of the physics engine. Your momentum is carried over from a directional dodge into the ground while your character slides in a stationary position. It's not a glitch.

That aside, people do this completely out of spite I've seen countless times. There is no good reasoning. Towards the community or game for the most part. I got into a recent debate with this between a person on the PM boards about this. It's complete ignorance. They'll claim the Melee community is toxic when it's really just the person making the claim who is intentionally being toxic. Or you'll have people claim that it's all about how the Melee community won't play something if not catered to them. Again, it's a claim out of sheer ignorance just to be spiteful. They have no legitimate proof. It's called the bandwagon effect. They're just talking to talk. It has no substance other than sheer spite to a community they literally know **** all about. You'll see this all the time from ****posters on GFAQs (glad I left that place), or people who just talk to talk on here like the two people from the PM boards recently.

When it comes to the game, generally people blame the community over the game. I've seen very few legitimate arguments when it comes to some of its design. Like how L-cancel is just an arbitrary button press. Generally people hate the game because of some illusion over the community that I detailed in the prior paragraph.

Don't take them seriously. It's not worth the time and effort. Most are not willing to have a legitimate discussion about it. It's just them being spiteful, ignorant, and hypocritical all at the same time. Either ignore/report and move on.

 

[REZERO]

To be fair though, what does plague melee is that it is 14 characters versus 33. Melee kind of aged well but it still lacks content the other games have right now.

I wouldn't say its a bad game though.

 

[MalanoMan]

Well I personally think Melee is broken, but that doesn't make it a bad game. Many people will point at the character imbalance and glitches and dump on the game, but objectively, it is a fun game. Competitive or Casual. I think people have a hard time realizing that this is a 17 yr old game as they try to compare it to modern smashes. It came out the same year as Halo 1, GTA 3, and Conkers Bad Fur Day. These are all great games, but they don't really hold up well today in comparison with modern games. Tekken 4 was released the same year. Do people still play that today? Probably not. Melee is still played competitively today because its mechanics are special. It is the physics model and the jankiness that keeps people coming back.

To be fair though, what does plague melee is that it is 14 characters versus 33. Melee kind of aged well but it still lacks content the other games have right now.

I wouldn't say its a bad game though.

I think 14 is fair, but non-fans or outside viewers are going to have a subjective view. They're going to see 1. Fox 2. Falco 3. Jiggs 4. Marth 5. Pikachu 6. Peach 7. Captain Falcon. 8. Sheik So only 8 viable characters and they may not even come to that conclusion based on the sheer number of Foxes, Falcos, and Marths and because the #1 player is a Jiggs main.

 

[REZERO]

Well I personally think Melee is broken, but that doesn't make it a bad game. Many people will point at the character imbalance and glitches and dump on the game, but objectively, it is a fun game. Competitive or Casual. I think people have a hard time realizing that this is a 17 yr old game as they try to compare it to modern smashes. It came out the same year as Halo 1, GTA 3, and Conkers Bad Fur Day. These are all great games, but they don't really hold up well today in comparison with modern games. Tekken 4 was released the same year. Do people still play that today? Probably not. Melee is still played competitively today because its mechanics are special. It is the physics model and the jankiness that keeps people coming back.



I think 14 is fair, but non-fans or outside viewers are going to have a subjective view. They're going to see 1. Fox 2. Falco 3. Jiggs 4. Marth 5. Pikachu 6. Peach 7. Captain Falcon. 8. Sheik So only 8 viable characters and they may not even come to that conclusion based on the sheer number of Foxes, Falcos, and Marths and because the #1 player is a Jiggs main.

I mean the reason people think there's only 8 viable players is people have this misconception that everyone who plays melee is good. Didn't Captain Jack beat Ken's marth with bowser at one point way back when?

But I definitely see it as a flaw, having less characters regardless of ratio per game.

 

[MalanoMan]

I mean the reason people think there's only 8 viable players is people have this misconception that everyone who plays melee is good. Didn't Captain Jack beat Ken's marth with bowser at one point way back when?

But I definitely see it as a flaw, having less characters regardless of ratio per game.

That brings up another conversation entirely. Are more players viable than we think? I think the answer is yes, but you literally have to have extreme skills like Captain Jack. To add to that point, When aMSa is playing his best I swear that Yoshi is the best character in the game.

 

[adang18]

I mean the reason people think there's only 8 viable players is people have this misconception that everyone who plays melee is good. Didn't Captain Jack beat Ken's marth with bowser at one point way back when?

But I definitely see it as a flaw, having less characters regardless of ratio per game.

With the ratio vs number of characters argument smash 64 is considered the most balanced game in the series despite it only having 12 characters (although all of them aee viable)

 

[REZERO]

With the ratio vs number of characters argument smash 64 is considered the most balanced game in the series despite it only having 12 characters (although all of them aee viable)

Yes if we are arguing ratios. The issue with that argument though is would you rather have 12 useable characters or 40+? Ratio isn't a good way to compare in that case.

 

[iCrash]

Correction right quick, but wavedashing is an exploit of the physics engine. Your momentum is carried over from a directional dodge into the ground while your character slides in a stationary position. It's not a glitch.

That aside, people do this completely out of spite I've seen countless times. There is no good reasoning. Towards the community or game for the most part. I got into a recent debate with this between a person on the PM boards about this. It's complete ignorance. They'll claim the Melee community is toxic when it's really just the person making the claim who is intentionally being toxic. Or you'll have people claim that it's all about how the Melee community won't play something if not catered to them. Again, it's a claim out of sheer ignorance just to be spiteful. They have no legitimate proof. It's called the bandwagon effect. They're just talking to talk. It has no substance other than sheer spite to a community they literally know **** all about. You'll see this all the time from ****posters on GFAQs (glad I left that place), or people who just talk to talk on here like the two people from the PM boards recently.

When it comes to the game, generally people blame the community over the game. I've seen very few legitimate arguments when it comes to some of its design. Like how L-cancel is just an arbitrary button press. Generally people hate the game because of some illusion over the community that I detailed in the prior paragraph.

Don't take them seriously. It's not worth the time and effort. Most are not willing to have a legitimate discussion about it. It's just them being spiteful, ignorant, and hypocritical all at the same time. Either ignore/report and move on.

Plus considering how certain characters have different friction stats, it really seems like wavedashing and wavelanding were either intentional or at least well known by the developers prior to launch

 

[Wazurau]

To be fair though, what does plague melee is that it is 14 characters versus 33. Melee kind of aged well but it still lacks content the other games have right now.

I wouldn't say its a bad game though.

as fun as the other characters are in ultimate, I would still just rather play melee if I wan't to play competitively. It's just faster paced and the "easy to pick up, hard to master" aspect is also very nice. It's all up to personal preference in gameplay though when it comes to playing competitively. Casually I really don't care. If it's a smash game, I'll play it. If it's any fighting game, I'll play it. I just love fighting games and I feel like at least like half the people that play melee probably think the same way and just love fighting games.

as for the character selection though:
- I personally feel it makes it harder for people to find mains with what I feel are too many characters. As much as I love seeing all of these Nintendo and 3rd party characters now fighting it out, there are just too many characters that fill up space (echo versions and then comeback characters to appease to fans but end up being trash tier). Even if there are only 14 in ssb64 and 26 Characters in Melee, people find ways to personally identify with that character no matter how many people also play them. So I personally do not mind a smaller character roster.

just one person's thoughts tho

Plus considering how certain characters have different friction stats, it really seems like wavedashing and wavelanding were either intentional or at least well known by the developers prior to launch

i believe sakurai intentionally left it in. Let me see if I can find the clip of him saying it. I just don't believe he thought it would be pushed to the extent that it was

EDIT: Sakurai confirming wavedashing was intentional
https://smashboards.com/threads/dis...-intervew-wavedashing-was-intentional.162416/

 

[Weenuk]

There has been several debates over Melee and the newer smash games with many players of the newer games generally disliking Melee but I can't help but wonder why that is.

1. Glitches. One of the reasons why Melee is hated is because of the use of so called glitches in competitive play but when you take a closer look there are very few glitches in competitive play. DI, SDI and L cancelling and Chain grabs are all intended mechanics (although Sakurai probably did not expect people to use it the way they did). Wobbling is an exploit of the grab mechanics. So the only real glitches are Wave dashing but that is only one tech it just has many applications. Also keep in mind that tech such as DACUS and perfect pivoting could both be categorised as glitches yet very few people claim they are. There also just as many mid tiers even low tiers who needs wave dashing more than the top tiers. The Ics, Luigi and Mewtwo are high, mid and low tier respectively but their Wave dashes are so good it invalidates the need of running. Yoshi is a mid tier character where wave dashing is an essential part of his meta as he needs it for his platform movement. Compare that to top tiers and high tiers such as Peach, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff and Pikachu who all have short wavedashes and out of all them Falcon is the only one that benefits from a short Wave dash as he can do Hax dashes. There are also some who believe that those who utilise tech in Melee have an unfair advantage but the problem with that is everybody has access to these options

2. Character balance. Melee does indeed have balancing issues but many tend to overexaggerate how bad it is. In Melee 14 out of 26 could be considered viable characters which is 60% of the cast as they have achieved high results at major tourneys with players of these characters placing high rankings in the rankings themselves. If you consider the rankings and placings for sm4sh 33 out of 55 characters could be considered viable which puts the percentage at 60% just like Melee or 34/55 which is 62% if you count dark pit as his own characters. This means that the character balance between the two games is quite similar and even if you considered outliers like pacman getting good results because of Sinji and therefore bottom tiers in sm4sh being just as viable as the rest of the cast, players like m2k have been high ranking players with Pichu and Roy but they are certainly not viable

So to sum it all up there should be no reason to dislike Melee other than personal preference as the problems which plague Melee also appear in other Smash games

saying that 14/26 are viable is a bit of a stretch imo, like yeah low tiers might do something cool once in awhile sometimes but you're never gonna see anybody outside of the top 8 win a major or something big like that besides maybe amsa/axe
(also wavedashing isn't a glitch it's an exploit)

 

[Prefecture]

Thank you for bringing back the quote for us. I needed it as well since agitators are still claiming Wavecheating is a Bug.

 

[Wazurau]

Thank you for bringing back the quote for us. I needed it as well since agitators are still claiming Wavecheating is a Bug.

no prob