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Is Marth Too OP in Ultimate?

Is Marth too OP in ssbu

  • Yay

  • Nay


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Lugigi

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I recently attended TBH8 and played smash ultimate for the first time. I played with 2 others I knew and 1 random, and won both games. Does anyone think marth is a little too OP or is he similar to the smash 4 marth.
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
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No way. Almost everything was nerfed, which I could go on forever clarifying, but I'd rather not. Even speaking game engine, most of Marth's combos aside for landing aerials will be gone in Ultimate. Throws combos and aerial strings were barely true in Smash 4 and only in specific scenarios. With Ultimate's reduced hitstun, Marth's combos will be the first to go (among other characters). Combos aren't everything; that's just an example. But in both game engine and specific moveset, Marth cannot be OP in SSBU.

I'll be playing Marth tomorrow for the first time at Nintendo's Tailgate Smash in Ann Arbor.
 
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godogod

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There's been a ton of Marth presence lately, especially from Europe. I think he might have gotten buffed overall. Besides frame data, Smash bros wiki says he got a sweetspot area buff on his tipper, dash attack doing more damage, reduced landing lag for all aerials, some buffs to grabs, dancing blade is easier to transition to following attacks in the sequence, shield breaker being able to be more angled.

We'll see. Just getting a large sweetspot area will be significant enough if true. We'll see when the game comes out.
 
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Vipermoon

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There's been a ton of Marth presence lately, especially from Europe. I think he might have gotten buffed overall. Besides frame data, Smash bros wiki says he got a sweetspot area buff on his tipper, dash attack doing more damage, reduced landing lag for all aerials, some buffs to grabs, dancing blade is easier to transition to following attacks in the sequence, shield breaker being able to be more angled.

We'll see. Just getting a large sweetspot area will be significant enough if true. We'll see when the game comes out.
No difference in frame data (landing lag is for all characters), his sweetspots are NOT easier, Dash Attack does the exact same damage and is one of the only Dash Attacks that didn't get reduced lag for the new game (most did), the only grab buff is that standing grab is once again F6 instead of 7 (but some other characters got this too), one throw was buffed and it's that back throw is less laggy (it won't matter, it's still too laggy to follow-up), forward throw was nerfed in that it's a little more laggy, Dancing Blade is easier to use but that doesn't matter with skilled players — overall Dancing Blade is definitely nerfed with much worse start-up, less shield cross-up potential, and significantly more end lag throughout. Anging Shield Breaker is more for show; it won't be that useful. Short-hop SB already hit shields on side Battlefield platforms in Smash 4, and it never had angling till Ultimate.

There are other nerfs, but I'm addressing what you said.

What's happening is that Marth is so relatively unchanged that he's easier to use (as a base skill level) in the beginning of this game vs. most of the other characters. This is a huge help to his success in the demo and will be in early tournaments, especially because he's a fundamentals character.
 
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Arthur97

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Really, I don't want him to get easier sweetspots to make Lucina even less relevant.
 

Phatty

Smash Cadet
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Really, I don't want him to get easier sweetspots to make Lucina even less relevant.
Personally, I think the loss of his jab confirm into Ftilt and Fsmash may make Lucina more relevant.

No difference in frame data (landing lag is for all characters), his sweetspots are NOT easier, Dash Attack does the exact same damage and is one of the only Dash Attacks that didn't get reduced lag for the new game (most did), the only grab buff is that standing grab is once again F6 instead of 7 (but some other characters got this too), one throw was buffed and it's that back throw is less laggy (it won't matter, it's still too laggy to follow-up), forward throw was nerfed in that it's a little more laggy, Dancing Blade is easier to use but that doesn't matter with skilled players — overall Dancing Blade is definitely nerfed with much worse start-up, less shield cross-up potential, and significantly more end lag throughout. Anging Shield Breaker is more for show; it won't be that useful. Short-hop SB already hit shields on side Battlefield platforms in Smash 4, and it never had angling till Ultimate.

There are other nerfs, but I'm addressing what you said.

What's happening is that Marth is so relatively unchanged that he's easier to use (as a base skill level) in the beginning of this game vs. most of the other characters. This is a huge help to his success in the demo and will be in early tournaments, especially because he's a fundamentals character.
I definitely agree that he has gotten much more nerfs than buffs and that he will probably fall in tier placement overall, but I don't agree with the point that the landing lag buffs don't necessarily count because they apply to all characters. I think the landing lag cuts benefit Marth much more than most other characters. With some characters, notably Shiek and Mario, that argument makes more sense, but Marth gained so much relative to those characters. For instance, Shiek’s Fair went from 10 frames of landing lag to 7, but Marth’s fair went from 16 to 10. It makes his ability to wall out characters with his hitboxes much more effective and less punishable, which will help him against characters that had a relatively easy time punishing his laggy aerials. And Dair is a big winner since he can land with it without having to space it so specifically. I think that overall his neutral game will be a tad better (though much less damaging) at the expense of some of his explosiveness and kill power.
 

Lugigi

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UPDATE: What do you guys think of simon?
 

godogod

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UPDATE: What do you guys think of simon?
Dude has killer range, 3 projectiles, and his attacks aren't that slow. Too early to say, but I think he has a lot of potential.

Personally, I think the loss of his jab confirm into Ftilt and Fsmash may make Lucina more relevant.



I definitely agree that he has gotten much more nerfs than buffs and that he will probably fall in tier placement overall, but I don't agree with the point that the landing lag buffs don't necessarily count because they apply to all characters. I think the landing lag cuts benefit Marth much more than most other characters. With some characters, notably Shiek and Mario, that argument makes more sense, but Marth gained so much relative to those characters. For instance, Shiek’s Fair went from 10 frames of landing lag to 7, but Marth’s fair went from 16 to 10. It makes his ability to wall out characters with his hitboxes much more effective and less punishable, which will help him against characters that had a relatively easy time punishing his laggy aerials. And Dair is a big winner since he can land with it without having to space it so specifically. I think that overall his neutral game will be a tad better (though much less damaging) at the expense of some of his explosiveness and kill power.
Roy on the other hand has gotten some nice buffs. He might give Marth a run for his money. Very big landing lag reductions, forward aerial being cancelable, up air does more damage, potentially large sweet spot on his hilt, and more.

Do we know Marth's landing lag reductions for his aerials by the exact frame?
 

Phatty

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UPDATE: What do you guys think of simon?
Simon will give a lot of characters that struggle against strong zoning trouble but his poor recovery and abysmal mobility will keep him from being top tier. I see him as a midtier maaaaaybe bottom of hightier but it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up low tier since his recovery is so bad. As far as Marth goes I'm not sure how that MU will go. Marth doesn't like projectiles and he doesn't like being out ranged but he's great at edge guarding and keeping people in disadvantage. If I had to guess I would think Marth has the advantage but it really depends on if people find ways to get around the Belmonts' projectile and ftilt spam.

Roy on the other hand has gotten some nice buffs. He might give Marth a run for his money. Very big landing lag reductions said:
Roy's LL changes are almost exactly the same as Marth's. The only difference is Roy's fair has 7 frames of LL and Marth's fair has 10 and I don't really think that will make much of a difference since Marth's fair has so much more range. I think his Uair being able to kill is nice. The only place I've seen that mentioned his sweetspots being bigger is smash wiki and I'm not sure how reliable that particular fact is (smash wiki also says Marths SS's are larger FWIW). I think his Blazer having more horizontal range is also nice and that helps him a TON offstage but he REALLY needed more vertical range too IMO.

I think Marth will still have the advantage over both Roy and Chrom. He can edgeguard them well, he can still outrange them, and their buffs really didn't change the MU much. Hell, they still have basically the same LL on all of their aerials. The only thing that did swing in their favor is that Marth's damage output took a hit and he lost his best kill confirms, whereas both Roy and Chrom still have theirs. So that those two things may have a big effect on the MU. Otherwise, he should still dominate them in neutral and I have a hard time seeing how things will change for them in Ultimate.
 
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Locuan

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I have noticed double posts in the thread within the last few days. If there is the chance you will double post, keep the post in the original by editing said post. Also, quote only posts are not allowed be sure to add some comment or substance.

Our terms and rules on Smashboards describe how we handle double posts.
https://smashboards.com/help/terms/

I am usually pretty lenient on this. However, if it's constant I will have to apply warnings.
 
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godogod

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Simon will give a lot of characters that struggle against strong zoning trouble but his poor recovery and abysmal mobility will keep him from being top tier. I see him as a midtier maaaaaybe bottom of hightier but it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up low tier since his recovery is so bad. As far as Marth goes I'm not sure how that MU will go. Marth doesn't like projectiles and he doesn't like being out ranged but he's great at edge guarding and keeping people in disadvantage. If I had to guess I would think Marth has the advantage but it really depends on if people find ways to get around the Belmonts' projectile and ftilt spam.
The Roy discord here has been doing tests and comparing hilt sweet spots from this game to smash 4 roy and noticed sour spot areas from smash 4 are now in the sweet spot territory.
 

AceTechHD

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There's been a ton of Marth presence lately, especially from Europe. I think he might have gotten buffed overall. Besides frame data, Smash bros wiki says he got a sweetspot area buff on his tipper, dash attack doing more damage, reduced landing lag for all aerials, some buffs to grabs, dancing blade is easier to transition to following attacks in the sequence, shield breaker being able to be more angled.

We'll see. Just getting a large sweetspot area will be significant enough if true. We'll see when the game comes out.
Dancing blade has a huge amount of lag on it making it almost unusable in most situations. Jab got nerfed and is no longer a reliable combo starter. Up throw is no longer a reliable kill option (huge nerf considering Marth doesn’t have many tools to deal with spammers). From what I can tell his range also was reduced overall. The tipper is much easier to land though, which might be his only redeeming quality. Unfortunately current Marth is low mid teir at best, and that’s being generous. From what I’ve played Lucina seems to be the overall better fighter.
 

godogod

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Lag? Looks like it connects easier for all hits to me. And a lot of the professionals are putting him in high tier.
 

Vipermoon

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Range is more or less the same and tippers also seem the same. I knew S4 Marth like the back of my hand and had his data memorized, but we'll see the new data eventually to know the extent of the nerfs.
 

AceTechHD

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Lag? Looks like it connects easier for all hits to me. And a lot of the professionals are putting him in high tier.
I should clarify I mean cooldown after the dancing blade has been executed. It leaves you wide open to get punished if they manage to slip out before dancing blade finishes. In Smash 4 I believe the cooldown made more sense for that particular move.
 

AceTechHD

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Range is more or less the same and tippers also seem the same. I knew S4 Marth like the back of my hand and had his data memorized, but we'll see the new data eventually to know the extent of the nerfs.
I have over 1000 hours between Smash 4 Wii U and 3DS. It does seem like his range is slightly shorter, but it could be that other characters have a longer range thus distorting my perception.
 

Vipermoon

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I have over 1000 hours between Smash 4 Wii U and 3DS. It does seem like his range is slightly shorter, but it could be that other characters have a longer range thus distorting my perception.
Really what I'm saying is we have no way of knowing yet what happened to the tipper and Marth's range. We really don't. Everything is too fresh; it's too easy to think you're seeing something. Whatever they changed in those regards, it's nothing big.
 

godogod

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We'll know eventually. Link's sword and range got longer apparently.
 
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