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Is Marth-Fox actually even?

TheBSKR

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
12
Location
Ontario, Canada
The more and more I play this matchup the more I doubt this matchup being even if it was even then why is shine-bair pressure so effective? Why is fair pressure so effective? Why does this matchup always feel unbalanced in each characters favor?
 

ridemyboat

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
152
The mu seems unbalanced in one person's favor because both characters have great punish games on the other. If you're having an off day, you're going to get destroyed.
 

DCW

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Georgia
Marth's use of fair can't be used as true pressure, unfortunately. Here's why: unlike Fox, Marth doesn't have any aerials that are positive on shield, meaning that Fox can act on the same frame that Marth can act after Marth hits his shield with an aerial. (Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/moves-that-are-safe-on-shield.437552/ ) Often Fox can act sooner.

So, if the Marth doesn't space his aerial perfectly--outside of grab range and putting out the attack very low to the ground--Fox can often punish him for it. Fox can shine out of shield, shieldgrab, or do an aerial attack in response. If Marth's aerial is perfectly spaced, Fox can just roll or wavedash back. Also, double fair isn't safe unless perfectly spaced--Fox can just do any of those out of shield options I mentioned in between the first and second fairs. If the Fox you play doesn't do this, let him know how he can punish so that both of you can improve as players.

However, it's important to know that you can use fair to pressure someone in a less direct way, by zoning with it. See this great post by TAI that explains the concept of zoning: http://www.meleeitonme.com/sharpening-your-sword-tais-marth-guide/.
 
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Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
Because both characters are really good and have effective tools against each other. In high-level games between top-tier characters you'll frequently see both players doing extremely "unfair" and "broken" things to each other, but the fact that both players can do them means they compensate for each other over the course of the game/set and the matchups end up relatively balanced overall. In addition to this, the options you're talking about have effective counterplay despite how good they are, which prevents them from being "too good". Because those tools can't be dealt with as well at low levels of play, they have more of an impact there (and seem much stronger), but they can still produce seemingly highly imbalanced results at high level.

It's most obvious with the punish game (but applies to neutral too): the effectiveness of the punish games both characters have means that comparatively fewer interactions are needed to win than between worse characters (or less effectively piloted forms of the good characters), which leads to more extreme outcomes. A simple way to visualise the concept is to assume that each player will win neutral about 50% of the time; if they can zero-to-death each other every time they do so then you're going to end up with a lot more games where one player dominates than if they can only get small punishes.

If you happen to play any trading card games then you'll know they demonstrate this quite clearly*: because of the power creep, where the overall power level of the top decks invariably tends to increase constantly as new cards are released, eventually the old decks/cards become so much worse than the new ones as to be completely unviable. And yet despite them being broken as hell by the old decks' standards, the new/good decks are still usually competitive against and roughly even with each other. It also tends to lead to an increase in the speed of the game and a reduced tolerance for misplays as the ability to take advantage of an opening increases, in a way which is parallel to the impact increasingly optimised punish games have in Melee.

* Yu-Gi-Oh is the best example I know of, between fundamental attributes of the mechanics, the fact that all cards remain legal at the maximum quantity forever unless explicitly/individually made otherwise, and the development team being really liberal.
 
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PolishSmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
210
Location
New York, U.S.A.
I don't know if its even or not even or 45-55 78-54 78-33 or whatever.

Marth has a sword. He's the best character in Melee with a sword. I think he has the correct tools to conquer Fox.
 
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