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Is Mario the Best Character in the Game?

KenMeister

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Think about it, Ally has done consistently well, placing first at several regionals, placed first at EVO solo-Mario, something that can't really be done with many solo-mains this meta, let alone consistently, and he probably has no bad MUs on paper. Mario's frame data is also extremely polarizing as well, leaving very little openings in his neutral thanks to his good drift game and OoS options, the character realistically has no weaknesses. Is he officially the best character in the game now? I've always thought of him to be one of the most dishonest characters in the game, and this year has shown it. lol
 

Emblem Lord

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Best? Nah.

Kinda nonsense thanks to his frame data?

I would agree to that.
 

DJBor

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It's between Cloud and Mario for who has the least negative matchups. They're both pretty perfect.
Other contenders are Rosa, Fox, Diddy, Sonic, Ryu, Sheik.
 

Hat N' Clogs

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Ryu is def not on that list lol
I agree. I would also not have Sonic as a contestant. He can't handle projectiles that well, especially if his opponent is named Megaman.

Anyway, Mario's still a great character, but not the best. I think Diddy, Sheik, and Cloud all have stronger matchups than Mario, and Rosalina probably does as well. 5th place at best, and probably 8th at worst.
 
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BSP

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I disagree on Mario having no realistic weaknesses.

1) While his air mobility is good, Mario isn't a fast character overall when it comes to mobility.

2) Mario has some of the worst range in the game.

3) Mario lacks a great forward facing aerial option, ala Sheik Fair, Mewtwo Fair, Diddy Fair, etc.

When you combine these three, you'll see that Mario has a linear approach that is quite exploitable if you're playing a character that can capitalize on it. Let me reference game 1 NAKAT vs Ally from EVO the other day. NAKAT, with Fox, picked apart Ally's first stock beautifully by utilizing Fox's superior mobility to play around Mario's limited approach options.

https://www.twitch.tv/srkevo2/v/78210213 ; look at around 11:38:00

That being said, Mario goes ham once he gets in. He doesn't have to get in that often most of the time because of the strength of his confirm game. TBH he may have the best grab game in smash 4 overall, and 95% of his moveset confirms into something else for broad % ranges. However, you can definitely see his struggle to get things started.

Along with that, Mario doesn't feel 100% comfortable offstage when he's at a disadvantage, and he doesn't have amazing landing options either. Offstage, a good read on his double jump = dead Mario most of the time since his SJP doesn't go that far. When he is landing, he doesn't have any good hitboxes to put below him. The best he can do is to juke with his good air drift, which is a potent mixup, but lackluster when compared to things like monkey flip (and B reversals out of it), flip jump, Bouncing Fish, Focus Attack, you get the idea.

All of that being said, Mario's strengths are real. His frame data is nuts, as is his confirm game. Usmash is a fast, potent KO move that doesn't leave him open to major punishment. Overall he's good, but not the best.
 

KenMeister

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I disagree on Mario having no realistic weaknesses.

1) While his air mobility is good, Mario isn't a fast character overall when it comes to mobility.

2) Mario has some of the worst range in the game.

3) Mario lacks a great forward facing aerial option, ala Sheik Fair, Mewtwo Fair, Diddy Fair, etc.

When you combine these three, you'll see that Mario has a linear approach that is quite exploitable if you're playing a character that can capitalize on it. Let me reference game 1 NAKAT vs Ally from EVO the other day. NAKAT, with Fox, picked apart Ally's first stock beautifully by utilizing Fox's superior mobility to play around Mario's limited approach options.

https://www.twitch.tv/srkevo2/v/78210213 ; look at around 11:38:00

That being said, Mario goes ham once he gets in. He doesn't have to get in that often most of the time because of the strength of his confirm game. TBH he may have the best grab game in smash 4 overall, and 95% of his moveset confirms into something else for broad % ranges. However, you can definitely see his struggle to get things started.

Along with that, Mario doesn't feel 100% comfortable offstage when he's at a disadvantage, and he doesn't have amazing landing options either. Offstage, a good read on his double jump = dead Mario most of the time since his SJP doesn't go that far. When he is landing, he doesn't have any good hitboxes to put below him. The best he can do is to juke with his good air drift, which is a potent mixup, but lackluster when compared to things like monkey flip (and B reversals out of it), flip jump, Bouncing Fish, Focus Attack, you get the idea.

All of that being said, Mario's strengths are real. His frame data is nuts, as is his confirm game. Usmash is a fast, potent KO move that doesn't leave him open to major punishment. Overall he's good, but not the best.
But point of the matter is that these look like weaknesses on paper, but in reality, he has plenty of ways to circumvent them, which kinda make those traits kind of irrelevant in top level play.
1) 8th best airspeed in the game says hi. Mario can get away with alot with alot by simply being in the air due to his numerous options in that position (buttons, b-reverse fireballs, air camping, etc.), something only very, very few characters can realistically exploit (Fox)
2) His range doesn't matter much because again, thank his numerous aerial options. Most, if not all of the disjointed characters, have a fair bit of ending lag in their moves, which Mario can punish by simply abusing powershield and his broken OoS options. Only DK and Mewtwo have answers to that currently, but Mario outplays them in the air so w/e.
3) Umm, RAR bair? Perfectly spaced bairs can't be punished OoS unless you've straight up got broken OoS (Sheik) or long enough grab range (DK)

And for the record, only disjoints have consistent answers to Mario's recovery options. The fact it has intangibility or whatever makes it difficult for the majority of the cast to challenge. It's a good recovery, nothing bad like you were saying. lol
 
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BSP

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But point of the matter is that these look like weaknesses on paper, but in reality, he has plenty of ways to circumvent them, which kinda make those traits kind of irrelevant in top level play.
His weaknesses definitely exist, and they do get exploited at top level. Ally isn't steamrolling everybody. However, I agree that Mario's strengths make up for them. His confirm game and frame data are that good.


1) 8th best airspeed in the game says hi. Mario can get away with alot by simply being in the air due to his numerous options in that position (buttons, b-reverse fireballs, air camping, etc.), something only very, very few characters can realistically exploit (Fox)
8th best air speed in the game doesn't paint the whole picture though. Mario drifts about as fast as Robin's run, meaning he's still not fast.

As for Mario in the air in general, he has a good air game. However, it's not perfect. As I said, his buttons are fast, but none of them are good at covering below him, nor does he have a low commitment burst movement escape option. Juggling him, or at the least pressuring his landing hard is not out of the question since he drifts as fast as Robin runs and can't seriously threaten you below him.

B reverse fireballs are a decent mixup for getting out of disadvantage, but that's a 53 frame commitment for projectile that doesn't cover directly under him and isn't hard to eat through with a good aerial.

Air camping...ok? I'm not trying to say his air game isn't good, but he's not an insurmountable fortress either. Again, when he takes to air,

-he can't threaten you quickly unless his back is to you
-he probably outspeeds you, but you most likely outrange and outdamage him
-can't cover below him well

Pretty much the entire cast can challenge him without fear if they're below him. Anyone who is remotely fast can abuse Mario's mobility + lack of range. ZSS, Fox, Sonic, M2, and Sheik come to mind immediately. In general, most of the cast outranges him as well.

Again, I'm not trying to say he isn't a monster once he gets in, nor that his strengths don't make up for his weaknesses. He still has them though.

2) His range doesn't matter much because again, thank his numerous aerial options. Most, if not all of the disjointed characters, have a fair bit of ending lag in their moves, which Mario can punish by simply abusing powershield and his broken OoS options. Only DK and Mewtwo have answers to that currently, but Mario outplays them in the air so w/e.
His lack of range matters because he's not as fast mobility wise as you are portraying. If we're talking about Mario getting in on people, I don't think he is quick enough to punish spaced aerials on block if he has to drop shield. His OoS options don't have that much range either, except up B I guess. I don't see Ally, Anti, or Zenyou use up B OoS much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kajNISIqGA - ally v mr e ; abusing PS doesn't work out that well in practice because Mario's approach is so linear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDFc5Hf_344 - ally v nairo ; linking this because it has some good examples of how exploitable mario is when he's trying to get in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-oi8uKzx7o - zenyou v tearbear; lots of examples of counterpoking mario's approach in this one, and pressuring his landing hard

Yes, I know in pretty much all of those examples Mario runs a train on his opponent when he gets in. That's not what we're discussing though. His weaknesses are still there.

3) Umm, RAR bair? Perfectly spaced bairs can't be punished OoS unless you've straight up got broken OoS (Sheik) or long enough grab range (DK)
RAR bair means Mario is facing away from you. To do that from the ground as an approach, that takes him 14 frames to put a (low range) hitbox in front of him. That's not good.

Perfectly spaced Bairs may be good on block, but they can be outspaced because of mario's low range, or you can outmaneuver him because he isn't that fast.

And for the record, only disjoints have consistent answers to Mario's recovery options. The fact it has intangibility or whatever makes it difficult for the majority of the cast to challenge. It's a good recovery, nothing bad like you were saying. lol
The raw distance on Mario's recovery is low. Like I said, you hit him out of his DJ and he's most likely dead. Similar to cloud, he can't cover the position a little bit in front of and below him very well, although he at least has a projectile and a decent stall option in cape.

The beginning of SJP is intangible, but the latter portion is not and can be challenged. Trust me, I've been Luigi nado spiked enough to know.

I'm not trying to call his recovery bad (never did btw), but it could be better. He's definitely in the "gimps aren't out of the question" part of the cast.
 

Mordecai Hazard

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No character is the best to be honest, it's just how often used the character is and how good the player uses them, that and perspective. We could just say Diddy or Shiek's the best because TSM l ZeRo is 1st in rankings and beats everyone else with them, but in reality we consider them the best because players use them really well and well than others. If everyone used Palutena the best and used Cloud really good but just not as good as Palutena, Palutena would be considered as the best character in the game. Tiers are just based on how good players use the character, there's no bad players, everyone is good. I've came across good low tiers on FG, and I'm not afraid to say I lost to a few of them.

Match ups don't really matter to a certain extent. The reason why I added "To a certain extent" because some characters can easily beat their worst match-ups while some have a hard time with them. For example: "Rosalina Vs. Ness". We all know this is a bad match-up because Rosalina's Neutral B though.....

Mario's worst match-up is Rosalina according to Eventhubs

https://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/mario/

The best Mario in the world against the best Rosalina in the world; in other words, Ally Vs. Dabuz. Ally defeated Dabuz's Rosalina at EVO 2-0

Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuwFVE7tMxs

To be honest, I believe if you train hard enough and have the dedication, match-ups, tier lists, they don't matter. As a dedicated Mario Main inspired by Ally, I have the dedication of being the best Mario in the world, and one day I will join real tournaments and go against REAL good players. But who cares about me, this is about the topic.
 
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DJBor

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Agreed that tier lists can't be defined by only players. It's really a waste to reiterate who is doing well at one point in time.
Tier lists should be focused more on character potential, on what can be done by one character against all the others, if anything. Also, every player should make their own, so it is easier for both themself and other onlooking players to understand said player's opinions on the metagame at that moment.
 

The21stSmasher

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Imma be real here in this thread and answer with a NO!

While I do see Mario being ONE of the best; he's gotten really solid results in the big tourneys thus far, and he DEFINITELY has the strengths of top tier character. But we can't ignore his prime weaknesses either: Not generally fast, little range, little options while looking on the front, as BSP BSP mentioned already.

Also, most people would jump to conclude and say he is the best, but that's only because of the players putting in the work with Mario. Making him look "OP", as they say.
Shoutouts to Zenyou by the way.
 
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