Is Link really that horrible?

[Zodiac]

I want to play Link in brawl tournaments because I am bored with him in melee (go figure) is he really so horrible or does he just not have enough representation?

 

[Anonano]

I'm sure Rizen is preparing a post on this, so I'll leave it to him

 

[BJN39]

Well, I'm no pro, but when I look at the data, I cringe. It's really quite unfortunate.

Things I can think of that don't help him:
Mobility - Very slow run speed, walk speed, small, jumps with a large lack of horizontal aerial mobility.
Recovery - His up B has a very small height boost, coupled with his aforementioned lack of horizontal air mobility makes it hard for him to recover generally. Clawshot = very short range and can be beaten by holding the ledge, so use carefully.
Moveset - In general, most of his moves are either really slow and can be punished easily, or are really weak.
His projectiles are also pretty mediocre, but this probably helps him from being the worst.

Those are things I can think of, but wait for Rizen, he knows his stuff.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I want to see Rizen's post on Link, as well.

 

[link2702]

he really is that horrible.

pretty much for all the reasons BJN said.

 

[Anonano]

This video does a pretty good job of showcasing some of Link's options.

But seriously, I didn't realize that Zodiac made his own thread for this until I looked back here (I just check my alerts). Something like this dooooesn't really need its own thread. Like, ever.

But anyways

 

[TriforceOSM]

Yeah...You all should just quit Link. Do any of you realize that not a single one of you has truly utilized any of the tricks that pros have discovered in 2010. 2010...that's sad. The only Link main to even attempt to use them is Scizor and he took a game off of DEHF! He didn't even know wtf he was doing with most of them. He just clutched it out. Why does it take the ass kicking of a japanese player or some insane prodigy for people to realize that a character has something to offer? Oh, I know, because nobody gives a **** about learning the character. You capture all this frame data, combos, and other **** like you know, but don't even attempt to use them.
Things I can think of that don't help him:
Mobility - Very slow run speed, walk speed, small, jumps with a large lack of horizontal aerial mobility.
Recovery - His up B has a very small height boost, coupled with his aforementioned lack of horizontal air mobility makes it hard for him to recover generally. Clawshot = very short range and can be beaten by holding the ledge, so use carefully.
Moveset - In general, most of his moves are either really slow and can be punished easily, or are really weak.
His projectiles are also pretty mediocre, but this probably helps him from being the worst.

Those are things I can think of, but wait for Rizen, he knows his stuff.

Hmm...These are very good points. Guess who else has a ****ty recovery, Olimar. Guess who else has a very slow run speed, Snake. Most other characters don't even have a tether, and most Links don't even use it correctly. Yeah his moveset is slow, but if you observed Snake or Ike mains use their movesets it wouldn't matter. Aside from Peach's stitchface and bob-omb, Link's bomb is the second best projectile in the game, next to Snake's nades.

Aside from those bogus and supposedly crippling faults, you forget that Link has a ton of positive features:

1. Fastest fast-fall speed in the game: Did you know that you can fast-fall air dodge when launched close to the top blast zone and be safe until you tether?
2. One of the few characters in the game that can jab-lock, and almost to death. Why hasn't anyone tried to find an insta-death combo with this?
3. Link has one of the fastest and best dash-attacks in the game. His dash-attack can hit nearly every character at their peak short-hop height. He can dash attack olimar as he throws pikmin.
4. Second best projectile in the game. His bombs stop ALL OTHER PROJECTILES. Link's bomb literally bulldozes TL's and it clashes with fully charged power beam and aura sphere. It even deflects Diddy's banana's.
5. Guess what else stops all other projectiles, Link's entire moveset (as well as his hylian shield which no one uses...). He's literally impervious to projectiles if played correctly.

But whatever, it's already over. Have fun whining about your mains in the next game. Doesn't help when all you top-tier players ****-talk the characters also.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Yeah...You all should just quit Link. Do any of you realize that not a single one of you has truly utilized any of the tricks that pros have discovered in 2010. 2010...that's sad. The only Link main to even attempt to use them is Scizor and he took a game off of DEHF! He didn't even know wtf he was doing with most of them. He just clutched it out. Why does it take the *** kicking of a japanese player or some insane prodigy for people to realize that a character has something to offer? Oh, I know, because nobody gives a **** about learning the character. You capture all this frame data, combos, and other **** like you know, but don't even attempt to use them.

​

Scizor is a good Link, and DEHF had probably no idea what to do against Link, or sandbagged based on what I saw in the matches, he wasn't playing the match up.

​

Things I can think of that don't help him:​

​

Mobility - Very slow run speed, walk speed, small, jumps with a large lack of horizontal aerial mobility.​

Recovery - His up B has a very small height boost, coupled with his aforementioned lack of horizontal air mobility makes it hard for him to recover generally. Clawshot = very short range and can be beaten by holding the ledge, so use carefully.​

Moveset - In general, most of his moves are either really slow and can be punished easily, or are really weak.​

His projectiles are also pretty mediocre, but this probably helps him from being the worst.​

Heavy Weight+Fast fall speed = loses to combos, cgs.​

Low horizontal mobility in air = Gimped really easy because of his bad recovery.​

Hmm...These are very good points. Guess who else has a ****ty recovery, Olimar. Guess who else has a very slow run speed, Snake. Most other characters don't even have a tether, and most Links don't even use it correctly. Yeah his moveset is slow, but if you observed Snake or Ike mains use their movesets it wouldn't matter. Aside from Peach's stitchface and bob-omb, Link's bomb is the second best projectile in the game, next to Snake's nades​

Link and Snake has basically the same dash speed, except Snake has the best Dacus for mobility, Link throws out an ass hitbox with his.​

Snake's Used MovesFrame data..​

Jab 1 - 3 -> Leads to F-Tilt -> 24% combo.​

U-Tilt - 6 -> Stronger than most smashes, larger disjoint than Marth F-Smash - 13% kill move(stronger than Falco's Usmash)​

F-Tilt 4 -> 17 -> Does 21% when both hits, hit. First hit can lead to trip which leads to grab, U-Tilt, teach chase, another F-Tilt.​

Dacus ..DA is..5 or..6 ? -> I now have ******** mobility and coverage.. a bit.​

Nade - Pulls on frame 1 -> 12%.​

Snake D-Throw - 12% -> Tech chase.. guaranteed.. funny how that works.​

Snake also wins all his trades barring he doesn't trade with Dk.​

Snake is slow in dash speed but.. they don't really dash.​

Don't compare the two.​

Ike has Jab 16% in total, starts on Frame 3.​

And has Jab -> Jab -> Jab all 3 hits.​

And way better mobility than Link, also a few spots higher in tiers.​

Second best projectile is Link's slow ass easy to catch, unstrippable bomb ?​

Better than Falco's lasers. A Transcendant projectile that forces an approach and can only be blocked. You derped right there, brother.​

Aside from those bogus and supposedly crippling faults, you forget that Link has a ton of positive features:​

1. Fastest fast-fall speed in the game: Did you know that you can fast-fall air dodge when launched close to the top blast zone and be safe until you tether?​

- You mean 2nd fastest, DDD has a faster fast fall.​

- You can't momentum cancel with air dodge and fast fall with it. So you mean Fast Fall Aerial, which allows you to fast fall.​

2. One of the few characters in the game that can jab-lock, and almost to death. Why hasn't anyone tried to find an insta-death combo with this?​

Spoiler

Mario can Jab lock/ Fire Ball lock -> Fsmash/ Dsmash.

​

Spoiler

Luigi can fire ball lock -> Up B/ Fsmash Up.​

Dk can D-Tilt/Jab Lock to Punch/ Fsmash/ Dsmash/ Side B/ 9 wind.​

Samus can Jab Lock.​

Zss can Neutral B lock -> Double Dsmash -> Bair.​

Kirby can Jab lock.​

Pikachu can Jab lock.​

Marth can Jab lock.​

Sheik can Needle Lock.​

Falco can laser lock.​

Squirtle can Jab lock.​

Snake can Jab lock.​

Rob can D-Tilt lock.​

Icies can Ice Block lock.​

DDD can Jab Lock.​

Ness can Jab lock.​

Sonic can Jab lock.​

Olimar can Jab lock.​

Falcon can F-Tilt Lock.​

Jigglypuff can Jab lock.​

Lucas can Jab lock.​

21/ 35-37 can Jab lock of some sort.​

One of the very few, indeed.​

​

3. Link has one of the fastest and best dash-attacks in the game. His dash-attack can hit nearly every character at their peak short-hop height. He can dash attack olimar as he throws pikmin.​

Link goes no where so that's a weird way to dash attack.​

Every character can do that to Olimar, but link has no range with it, he goes nowhere and Olimar's pikmin toss is fast enough where he can just shield and punish you, but I don't think Olimar would be that close anyway.​

4. Second best projectile in the game. His bombs stop ALL OTHER PROJECTILES. Link's bomb literally bulldozes TL's and it clashes with fully charged power beam and aura sphere. It even deflects Diddy's banana's​

His bombs are slow and lose to Falco's lasers because they're slow, they don't clash, they have a hurtbox and take the hit, if they didn't have a hurtbox, they'd blow up and the Power Beam charge/ aura sphere would go right through =/​

Diddy's bananas bounce off any hitboxes/ hurtboxes/ shields, nothing special.​

5. Guess what else stops all other projectiles, Link's entire moveset (as well as his hylian shield which no one uses...). He's literally impervious to projectiles if played correctly.​

Every character with a non transecendant move > Projectiles that aren't Falco, Fox's or Wolf's lasers.​

Space animals also have a reflector =v​

It's nothing special.​

But whatever, it's already over. Have fun whining about your mains in the next game. Doesn't help when all you top-tier players ****-talk the characters also.​

I play Falco, Marth, Dk, DDD, Luigi, C.Falcon.​

I won't trash talk Link, but he is an ass character.​

I won't say not to play him because I believe everyone should be allowed to play who they like or have fun using, nothing wrong with that.​

But Link still sucks and will forever be bad ​

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[1PokeMastr]

Double post because Swf is bad and derps up the posts however is pleases.

 

[-Se7en-]

It depends on how well you play,he has a few strongpoints but his weak points shut him down.If you play intelligently you can stand a chance,it just requires knowledge of what your opponent will do and how you will react to that.Rizen uses every little tatic Link has to offer,even shutting down a few of the opponent's options by something as simple as bomb > full hop > down throw the bomb > fast fall nair.

 

[Osennecho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOeOJE6LIWI
0-2:22.... Never Forget

 

[TriforceOSM]

Scizor is a good Link, and DEHF had probably no idea what to do against Link, or sandbagged based on what I saw in the matches, he wasn't playing the match up.
Scizor is a great Link, but he had no tactical plan to deal with Falco; although he did develop a strategy mid-game, DEHF figured him out after. DEHF also approached the matchup wrong, you're supposed to be aggressive aiming for the chaingrab. He camped instead. If you'd just work on a plan to deal with the matchup instead of whining about how bad it is, then you may actually beat them.

Things I can think of that don't help him:
Mobility - Very slow run speed, walk speed, small, jumps with a large lack of horizontal aerial mobility.
Recovery - His up B has a very small height boost, coupled with his aforementioned lack of horizontal air mobility makes it hard for him to recover generally. Clawshot = very short range and can be beaten by holding the ledge, so use carefully.
Moveset - In general, most of his moves are either really slow and can be punished easily, or are really weak.
His projectiles are also pretty mediocre, but this probably helps him from being the worst.

Heavy Weight+Fast fall speed = loses to combos, cgs.
Low horizontal mobility in air = Gimped really easy because of his bad recovery.
Hmm...These are very good points. Guess who else has a ****ty recovery, Olimar. Guess who else has a very slow run speed, Snake. Most other characters don't even have a tether, and most Links don't even use it correctly. Yeah his moveset is slow, but if you observed Snake or Ike mains use their movesets it wouldn't matter. Aside from Peach's stitchface and bob-omb, Link's bomb is the second best projectile in the game, next to Snake's nades
Link and Snake has basically the same dash speed, except Snake has the best Dacus for mobility, Link throws out an *** hitbox with his.
Well you're forgetting about his Dacit, which isn't used at all by Link's today. Link's mobility is actually much greater than Snake's when using this.

Snake's Used MovesFrame data..
Jab 1 - 3 -> Leads to F-Tilt -> 24% combo.

Link's second jab works very similarly to Ike's where he can jab-cancel to another jab, or do one of these followups: d-smash, u-smash, u-tilt, grab. Link's jab is worse than Snake's but he's got a pretty awesome jab.

U-Tilt - 6 -> Stronger than most smashes, larger disjoint than Marth F-Smash - 13% kill move(stronger than Falco's Usmash)

What's funny about this is that Snake's u-tilt is his only viable kill move. He can kill himself with all of his other ones (except the unreliable f-smash).

F-Tilt 4 -> 17 -> Does 21% when both hits, hit. First hit can lead to trip which leads to grab, U-Tilt, teach chase, another F-Tilt.

Link probably has the most or top 5 number of combo's that are possible with his tools. It'd be stupid to name them all, but his zair, bomb, fair (first and second hit), u-tilt, jab, and boomerang all lead to combos.

Dacus ..DA is..5 or..6 ? -> I now have ******** mobility and coverage.. a bit.
Nade - Pulls on frame 1 -> 12%.
Snake D-Throw - 12% -> Tech chase.. guaranteed.. funny how that works.
Snake also wins all his trades barring he doesn't trade with Dk.
Snake is slow in dash speed but.. they don't really dash.
Don't compare the two.
Ike has Jab 16% in total, starts on Frame 3.
And has Jab -> Jab -> Jab all 3 hits.
And way better mobility than Link, also a few spots higher in tiers.
Second best projectile is Link's slow *** easy to catch, unstrippable bomb ?
Better than Falco's lasers. A Transcendant projectile that forces an approach and can only be blocked. You derped right there, brother.



Aside from those bogus and supposedly crippling faults, you forget that Link has a ton of positive features:
1. Fastest fast-fall speed in the game: Did you know that you can fast-fall air dodge when launched close to the top blast zone and be safe until you tether?


You mean 2nd fastest, DDD has a faster fast fall.
Ya that's true. Forgot about that. Note that a fast fast-fall speed equates to longer living. I've lived til 220% (someone else here claimed to have lived til 250%). Link should be a faster Snake with less kill-power.

You can't momentum cancel with air dodge and fast fall with it. So you mean Fast Fall Aerial, which allows you to fast fall.
I meant after the fast-fall momentum cancel. When you're close to the top blast zone, you can fast fall air-dodge and be safe until you tether.


3. Link has one of the fastest and best dash-attacks in the game. His dash-attack can hit nearly every character at their peak short-hop height. He can dash attack olimar as he throws pikmin.
Link goes no where so that's a weird way to dash attack.
Every character can do that to Olimar, but link has no range with it, he goes nowhere and Olimar's pikmin toss is fast enough where he can just shield and punish you, but I don't think Olimar would be that close anyway.
Btw, I thought you'd be smart enough to know I meant as he's jumping, because that's what ALL Olimar mains do. Besides, the whole projectile destroying aspect of Link's attacks allows him to attack and knock off thrown pikmin. Most Olimars know to use purple pikmin because of this to stop Link's approach.

4. Second best projectile in the game. His bombs stop ALL OTHER PROJECTILES. Link's bomb literally bulldozes TL's and it clashes with fully charged power beam and aura sphere. It even deflects Diddy's banana's.
His bombs are slow and lose to Falco's lasers because they're slow, they don't clash, they have a hurtbox and take the hit, if they didn't have a hurtbox, they'd blow up and the Power Beam charge/ aura sphere would go right through =/
Diddy's bananas bounce off any hitboxes/ hurtboxes/ shields, nothing special.
Lol well this is contradictory: "they don't clash, they have a hurtbox and take the hit, if they didn't have a hurtbox, they'd blow up and the power beam charge/aura sphere would go right through =/." Ya...That's exactly why they're the second best projectile in the game. Also, Falco outcamps everyone, doesn't mean he has the best projectile in the game. He just has the best tools for camping. Snake's nades can kill at later percentages and Link's bombs set up kill moves. They're much better than Falco's damage racking lasers.

5. Guess what else stops all other projectiles, Link's entire moveset (as well as his hylian shield which no one uses...). He's literally impervious to projectiles if played correctly.
Every character with a non transecendant move > Projectiles that aren't Falco, Fox's or Wolf's lasers.
Space animals also have a reflector =v
It's nothing special.
Yep, which is why Falco and Fox are up there in Link's worst matchups, but you're forgetting the point. Link can nair through Olimar's u-smash, Snake's u-smash, grenades (although it sometimes doesn't work), Pit's arrows, and the like. He can dash attack a projectile and it'll clash-cancel, allowing him to counter someone like Peach who occasionally approaches with turnips. It's a crucial part of his potential meta-game that no one utilizes yet.

But whatever, it's already over. Have fun whining about your mains in the next game. Doesn't help when all you top-tier players ****-talk the characters also.
I play Falco, Marth, Dk, DDD, Luigi, C.Falcon.
I won't trash talk Link, but he is an *** character.
Well that's the definition of "trash talk" but unlike the high/top-tier characters, Link doesn't have an abundance of top level players conversing about MU strategies. The main reason why he's not viable is because no one cares to figure out how to deal with them. Do any of you know that Link's nair passes through MK's glide attack? Did you know that crouch-blocking with the hylian shield deflects Pikachu's thunderbolt, Wolf's blaster, IC's ice blocks and blizzard, and Diddy's banana's? If you did, then use it because Link is way better than what this guy and other players think.

I won't say not to play him because I believe everyone should be allowed to play who they like or have fun using, nothing wrong with that.
But Link still sucks and will forever be bad
Again, the definition of trash talk.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Scizor is a great Link, but he had no tactical plan to deal with Falco; although he did develop a strategy mid-game, DEHF figured him out after. DEHF also approached the matchup wrong, you're supposed to be aggressive aiming for the chaingrab. He camped instead. If you'd just work on a plan to deal with the matchup instead of whining about how bad it is, then you may actually beat them.

Actually, Falco is supposed to camp. Falco's aren't going to be aggressively going for the chain grab, especially if Link is going to blow himself up to avoid the CG percentage.

I've played KirinBlaze before, but with Dk.. but,, I'd expect to get the same results if I used my main.
Who happens to be Flaoc.
Well you're forgetting about his Dacit, which isn't used at all by Link's today. Link's mobility is actually much greater than Snake's when using this.

You fake a bomb throw direction and have almost no coverage and you don't go as far as Snake does also slow moving projectile.

Link's second jab works very similarly to Ike's where he can jab-cancel to another jab, or do one of these followups: d-smash, u-smash, u-tilt, grab. Link's jab is worse than Snake's but he's got a pretty awesome jab


You can shied all those followups and spot dodge the grab, it's pretty ass.

What's funny about this is that Snake's u-tilt is his only viable kill move. He can kill himself with all of his other ones (except the unreliable f-smash).


All his moves kill except maybe box and throws, fresh nade kill around 160-180%.
His Bair, DA, Uair, Dair, Nair, F-Tilt, Jab. They all kill reliably and they aren't that slow.

Ya that's true. Forgot about that. Note that a fast fast-fall speed equates to longer living. I've lived til 220% (someone else here claimed to have lived til 250%). Link should be a faster Snake with less kill-power.

I've lived to 220% with Falco. 295% with Dk and 308% with DDD. You live that long because of sour spots, chip and stale moves.

I'm well aware of how momentum cancelling works.

Link is slow and has less Gimmicks than Dk does in the regard for "Combos".

Btw, I thought you'd be smart enough to know I meant as he's jumping, because that's what ALL Olimar mains do. Besides, the whole projectile destroying aspect of Link's attacks allows him to attack and knock off thrown pikmin. Most Olimars know to use purple pikmin because of this to stop Link's approach.

Er, guy. I DID say "I don't think Olimar would be that close" meaning what good Olimar would Pikmin toss that close to Link ?

And every character can knock off Pikmin with attacks.

Link is in no way a faster Snake.
Ya...That's exactly why they're the second best projectile in the game. Also, Falco outcamps everyone, doesn't mean he has the best projectile in the game. He just has the best tools for camping. Snake's nades can kill at later percentages and Link's bombs set up kill moves. They're much better than Falco's damage racking lasers.

Olimar outcamps Falco :v

Falco's lasers stop approaches, force approaches, deal away chip damage, eat jumps, gimp are long ranged and only lose to reflector and shields.
Link's bombs are not the second best projectile.

Yep, which is why Falco and Fox are up there in Link's worst matchups, but you're forgetting the point. Link can nair through Olimar's u-smash, Snake's u-smash, grenades (although it sometimes doesn't work), Pit's arrows, and the like. He can dash attack a projectile and it'll clash-cancel, allowing him to counter someone like Peach who occasionally approaches with turnips. It's a crucial part of his potential meta-game that no one utilizes yet.

Marth can Nair, Fair through, Falco can dash attack through, Any character with a lasting hitbox on a move > Mortar.

Any non transcendant move > Pits arrows.
You could always press A or whatever you have set to Jab before the projectile hits you, turnips are slow :v So are your bombs :v

Well that's the definition of "trash talk" but unlike the high/top-tier characters, Link doesn't have an abundance of top level players conversing about MU strategies. The main reason why he's not viable is because no one cares to figure out how to deal with them. Do any of you know that Link's nair passes through MK's glide attack? Did you know that crouch-blocking with the hylian shield deflects Pikachu's thunderbolt, Wolf's blaster, IC's ice blocks and blizzard, and Diddy's banana's? If you did, then use it because Link is way better than what this guy and other players think.

Any non transcendant move > Mk's glide attack.
Unless it has projectile priority like Zss' nair.

Did you know Falco has a frame 1 reflector ?

Link is still low tier.

I also don't think calling a bad character bad is trash talking.
I call it the truth :v

 

[-Se7en-]

Everybody chill out,Link is not a metaknight or anything I'll admit but he has things that can be put him into an advantage.

 

[TriforceOSM]

Scizor is a great Link, but he had no tactical plan to deal with Falco; although he did develop a strategy mid-game, DEHF figured him out after. DEHF also approached the matchup wrong, you're supposed to be aggressive aiming for the chaingrab. He camped instead. If you'd just work on a plan to deal with the matchup instead of whining about how bad it is, then you may actually beat them.

Actually, Falco is supposed to camp. Falco's aren't going to be aggressively going for the chain grab, especially if Link is going to blow himself up to avoid the CG percentage.

Well, I was actually wrong about DEHF camping the game he lost, but game 3 you can tell he makes a bigger effort to play aggressively and gets a solid 2 stock. You're supposed to play aggressively and aim for the chaingrab because 1 chaingrab could equate to a lost stock. AFTER you get/fail the chaingrab is when you start camping.

Well you're forgetting about his Dacit, which isn't used at all by Link's today. Link's mobility is actually much greater than Snake's when using this.


You fake a bomb throw direction and have almost no coverage and you don't go as far as Snake does also slow moving projectile.

Lol. Well you obviously don't know how it works, but I'll let that slide since I clearly misinformed everyone about Snake's kill options. There's a "fake" OPTION and a actual throw OPTION in tossing the bomb vertically and horizontally, which makes it an extremely good retreating and approaching option. If you were to camp with with Falco, I could use the f-throw glide toss to safely approach you as you land because the bomb's hurtbox would take the laser (Snake can't do this =/). If I do the "fake" f-throw, I could block if you reflect it; but if I actually throw it, I can combo if it hits. Of course it can backfire, but so can using Snake's DACUS. You want to exalt the top characters data, but it's ultimately how it's used that makes them so viable.

MK's nado can easily be stopped if they move along the ground, which is why all MK's hover in the air. Notice how most Snake's only use Dacus when you're either knocked offstage or trying to land back on the ground? Olimar's a prime example of having to constantly change strategies in order to deal with certain MU's and use different pikmin for different kill moves/throws. Without any of those strategies, Olimar wouldn't have moved so far in the tier list.

Link's second jab works very similarly to Ike's where he can jab-cancel to another jab, or do one of these followups: d-smash, u-smash, u-tilt, grab. Link's jab is worse than Snake's but he's got a pretty awesome jab



You can shied all those followups and spot dodge the grab, it's pretty ***.

Some characters can shield the followups without DI, but most need to DI in order to avoid these and sometimes DI-ing can make these followups guaranteed. It's like how certain DI sets up different combos with Ike's jab:

Grab – This is useful if your opponent tends to shield while getting jabbed, or if you jab a shield. Instead of continuing the combo, just cancel into a grab to beat the shield. Jab>grab usually does less damage overall than a full jab combo; however, a throw can set up for edgeguarding or juggling.

Bair - Canceling into Bair is one of Ike’s kill setups. After the jab, buffer a turnaround, short hop, and bair your opponent. The Bair should auto cancel if you do it right. Alternatively, if your opponent DI’s through you, you do not even need to turn around. It is recommended that you retreat the Bair so it would be harder for your opponent to punish if you happen to hit shield.

Uptilt – Canceling into Uptilt is another one of Ike’s kill setups. If the opponent is using a floaty character or tends to DI the jab combo up and towards you, uptilt is a viable option.

What's funny about this is that Snake's u-tilt is his only viable kill move. He can kill himself with all of his other ones (except the unreliable f-smash).



All his moves kill except maybe box and throws, fresh nade kill around 160-180%.
His Bair, DA, Uair, Dair, Nair, F-Tilt, Jab. They all kill reliably and they aren't that slow.

Ya that's true. Except you're exalting many of these to the same level as u-tilt. The only moves you mentioned that kill as early as u-tilt is Dair, Nair, Bair, and Uair. Dair is DI-able, Nair is DI-able, bair stales fairly easily and still requires a pretty high percentage to be guaranteed. Uair is about as reliable as Link's Uair and is mostly used as a safe gamble that forces the opponent to dodge if you miss so that they land on a claymore or in a bad position that forces predictable options. All the other kill moves you mentioned require 150+%.

Ya that's true. Forgot about that. Note that a fast fast-fall speed equates to longer living. I've lived til 220% (someone else here claimed to have lived til 250%). Link should be a faster Snake with less kill-power.


I've lived to 220% with Falco. 295% with Dk and 308% with DDD. You live that long because of sour spots, chip and stale moves.

Well, I can tell you about the times I've lived impossible to survive kill moves in matches (Rock Smash at 189% & G&W d-smash by tethering at 150+%), but you'd just think I'm lying. Just remember that Link can tether horizontal kill moves at nearly any percentage and Link's dair is one of the best vertical momentum canceling moves in the game. He can live to insanely high percentages if any1 attempted to practice the ****. Why does Will do so well with DK? Because he almost always survives past 200%.


Link is slow and has less Gimmicks than Dk does in the regard for "Combos".

Lmao, okay this is just ********. DK has amazing followups but very few "actual" combos. The only ones I recall are side-b combos and the combos from throws. Link has bomb combos with aerials, throws, zair, and tilts (FH -> bomb d-throw -> nair/dair/fair/uair, bomb u-throw -> grab u-throw, DACIT u-throw -> grab -> 2 pounds -> grab d-throw -> dair/uair [A 5 hit, 32%, combo I made that works between 0-42% and registers in Training...try it], bomb f-throw -> DA). He also has regular aerial combos. I believe only ZSS, Peach, and TL have more combos than Link.

Btw, I thought you'd be smart enough to know I meant as he's jumping, because that's what ALL Olimar mains do. Besides, the whole projectile destroying aspect of Link's attacks allows him to attack and knock off thrown pikmin. Most Olimars know to use purple pikmin because of this to stop Link's approach.


Er, guy. I DID say "I don't think Olimar would be that close" meaning what good Olimar would Pikmin toss that close to Link ?

And every character can knock off Pikmin with attacks.

Yes every character can knock off pikmin, but not as reliably as Link. Link can fair approach and knock off pikmin, zair approach and do the same. He can fastfall nair off pikmin as well as go through an olimar u-smash if the Olimar doesn't know that he can. He can approach with Dacus if timed well and you have the distance down pact. Link can approach unpredictably against Olimar. Snake's approach options: nair, DA, Dacus, and f-tilt. f-tilt (and jab) is extremely useful for the MU. DA and Dacus have the same counter (grab). Nair is an extremely bad option because it's easily punishable. Snake is easily predictable and punishable, so this MU is horrible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBM4uhvQht0

You can tell from watching this, and the fact that Ally doesn't use Snake against Olimar anymore.

Ya...That's exactly why they're the second best projectile in the game. Also, Falco outcamps everyone, doesn't mean he has the best projectile in the game. He just has the best tools for camping. Snake's nades can kill at later percentages and Link's bombs set up kill moves. They're much better than Falco's damage racking lasers.

Olimar outcamps Falco :v

Falco's lasers stop approaches, force approaches, deal away chip damage, eat jumps, gimp are long ranged and only lose to reflector and shields.
Link's bombs are not the second best projectile.

In terms of the projectiles capabilities, Link's got the second best projectile. In terms of it's usefulness to the character, Falco has the second best projectile. Although we haven't really utilized the full potential of Link's bombs yet, so I wouldn't say that yet. Link's bombs set up kill moves, they can actually kill you as well (at a slightly higher percentage than Snake's nades), the footstool combo can lead to the jab-lock on many characters. He can also use it similarly to Snake with the air dodge drop. You're forgetting how useful it is to Link as well as how good it is in general. We just haven't found the best way to use it in different MU's.

Yep, which is why Falco and Fox are up there in Link's worst matchups, but you're forgetting the point. Link can nair through Olimar's u-smash, Snake's u-smash, grenades (although it sometimes doesn't work), Pit's arrows, and the like. He can dash attack a projectile and it'll clash-cancel, allowing him to counter someone like Peach who occasionally approaches with turnips. It's a crucial part of his potential meta-game that no one utilizes yet.


Marth can Nair, Fair through, Falco can dash attack through, Any character with a lasting hitbox on a move > Mortar.

Any non transcendant move > Pits arrows.
You could always press A or whatever you have set to Jab before the projectile hits you, turnips are slow :v So are your bombs :v

Okay...I'm not trying to say that Link is "better" than other characters; I'm trying to say that Link has the SAME CAPABILITIES as other characters, but we just haven't figured out the right way to use them. Also, the slow aspect of Link's bombs, and the fact that they're actually pretty hard to catch, forces predictable responses that are easily punishable. It's the same reason why Peaches turnips are useful (also the fact that she pulls out different kinds of turnips and items that have a chance to kill.)

Well that's the definition of "trash talk" but unlike the high/top-tier characters, Link doesn't have an abundance of top level players conversing about MU strategies. The main reason why he's not viable is because no one cares to figure out how to deal with them. Do any of you know that Link's nair passes through MK's glide attack? Did you know that crouch-blocking with the hylian shield deflects Pikachu's thunderbolt, Wolf's blaster, IC's ice blocks and blizzard, and Diddy's banana's? If you did, then use it because Link is way better than what this guy and other players think.


Any non transcendant move > Mk's glide attack.
Unless it has projectile priority like Zss' nair.

Did you know Falco has a frame 1 reflector ?

Link is still low tier.

Yep, so was Ike. ZSS is on her way up now because of Salem. Brood and Neitono brought Olimar to number 2 and IC's was number 2 before that. The tier list is flawed as ****. Only thing they have right is Ganon. Fox is severely underrated, Lucario is severely underrated. Lucas as well, which Mekos is proving. DK is underrated. Yet you ignore the evidence that proves they're way better than what you think. Will is probably still trying to master that weird invincibility on up-b when you dash pivot near the edge, and he's doing well WITHOUT it. Man just stfu. All of you need to think that Link can be good or you'll never figure out how to make him better. STOP WHINING AND THINK!

I also don't think calling a bad character bad is trash talking.
I call it the truth :v

Ya...okay. Then all of you who think the same shouldn't play Link competitively, ever. What's the point of using a character competitively if you don't believe you can win with him?

 

[-Se7en-]

It's called being a low tier hero,and regardless Link doesn't have any frame 1 attacks,but he can make hit boxes all over the place.Here's an interesting thing,rather than talk about it prove it - that's what Smashboards wants to see.Now here's encouragement - in melee Marth and Captain Falcon were thought of as low tier - all it took was Ken and Isai.

1)You have to accept link's weak points restrict him,he has a few good flaws but it's how the player uses them and can prevent the bad flaws from covering the good.

2)We don't have many options to get back onstage,then there's our frame problems compared to somebody like Falco with a frame 2 jab that sets up to grab naturally.If we get chain grabbed by Falco we are nearly done.

3)Ask yourself : "If I have to play by spacing,what will I do if they get inside?"They will get inside,otherwise Link would be the best.

 

[Player -0]

Pikmin eat every projectile, I want to throw that out there. Honestly if someone can fully master Link's projectiles and spacial awareness then I think they can do very well.

 

[link and ike lover]

link is beast only if your good with him and know great combos link in my opinion is the number 1 character in brawl. there is no incredible or worst character everybody has there own list. u guys just don't know how to use link the right way. his range is incredible his hit box is high u guys don't know how to use link and that's final

 

[Player -0]

link is beast only if your good with him and know great combos link in my opinion is the number 1 character in brawl. there is no incredible or worst character everybody has there own list. u guys just don't know how to use link the right way. his range is incredible his hit box is high u guys don't know how to use link and that's final

Please not the necro.....
MK is pretty much top for everybody. Link has some tools but has many weaknesses which hinder him from being really good. That's already been established....

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Link's amazing! Get to training mode and learn string setups and always remember!

Whenever you're stuck and can't get out of that spot. Just call 1800

DAIR!

 

[link and ike lover]

Link's amazing! Get to training mode and learn string setups and always remember!

Whenever you're stuck and can't get out of that spot. Just call 1800

DAIR!

yes i know these people dont know how to use link only me and GYK

 

[tekkie]

i will money match every link main in this thread for any amount of money at apex

 

[κomıc]

I don't main Link but I do love using him. I think he is a solid character all around. People say he's bad because they're used to what I call the "eazy" characters. It takes a lot more time learning to master to Link than someone like Snake, Falco or Metaknight. And the payoff is rewarding. Again, I don't main Link, but he has incredible potential that is overshadowed by "better" characters (which again, are the easiest to learn in the game).

Love the Gale Boomerang. Great for gimping and screwing your opponents recoveries.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Pane, I will just WiFi you. Since I know you're no Seagull Joe Wolf ( I can go aggro and shut down your annoying Back airs with my own Link Back airs and fnacy stuff. Unless lags bad, then you win! X)

@ Link and Ike lover, It's not that they don't how to use Link, these Link mains panic and just keep throwing bombs and never mix it up. Heck half of them just copy other players and just really do not know why they're copying them. Link until this day (still) isn't use to his full potienal. They're are still more things to add into your game-play. For instance.... BOMB SLIDES!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for your time~

 

[Naroghin]

Link's amazing! Get to training mode and learn string setups and always remember!

Whenever you're stuck and can't get out of that spot. Just call 1800

DAIR!

GYK, this is the best thing ever. Can I quote you in my sig?

 

[link and ike lover]

GYK, this is the best thing ever. Can I quote you in my sig?

i know its dope. GYK your a inspiration to all link mains. may the tryforce be in all link mains

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

GYK, this is the best thing ever. Can I quote you in my sig?

Ha ha, sure bro!

@ Link the lover, no one knows about my Link... yet... I hope to bring new ideas and set-ups to other Link mains that can use in their game-play or tourneys. =O

 

[Erik=Link]

How about we start playing the game, and stop sweating over the small stuff. MK is at the Top of the Tier list yes we know that, on the other, Links toward the bottom ,but what value does a tier list hold when Link can just as easily win a match against MK as MK can him. Look all I'm saying here is every character has their advantage, and its up to the player to utilize those in order to give themselfs the best position in a fight. And I will admit Link can be a little slow on his feet at times and a little heavy for such a small frame ELF! But you know what guys if you really want to decide the fate of which character is the best well I'm afraid that answer realize is in the eyes of the player.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Throw bombs randomly to stop MK's Nado. There, you're winning! That's the only thing that messes up Link. He can camp at times and out power MK easily. He can even DI to amazing percentages. Link can just down special if he sees MK's Shuttle Loop (which isn't too hard to figure out when it's coming). Learn Link's ATs (all of them), you'll never know when those certain ATs come in handy, learn Link's frames and range difference and finally experiment! Link has the tools to fix his poor recovery (his only problem!), not even that, but Link can still make it back to the stage with no problems (at times). He can even re-grab the ledge to gimp someone that tries to gimp Link.

Link's options to get back on the stage, Arrows, Bombs, Gale Boomerang, back air, forward air, up air footstool and down air (you need to use your second jump as well). Heck, lets type that Link has a Bomb in his hand, and Ike is jumping and is about to Foward air him, Link can ZAC his bomb to a Nair. And now, Link can recover on the ledge and he still has that Bomb to deal with. There! Get studying!

May the unorthodox be with you~

 

[Erik=Link]

Hey GYK do you play Project M?

 

[thedoctr11]

Link is disadvantaged for sure! BUT if you are willing to do the work, he can be a ton of fun and a very satisfying character to play. Its all about AT and Mind Games, Mind Games, Mind Games.

Have fun. Save Zelda.

 

[Anonano]

If you'd like to continue this discussion, I'd recommend taking it to the Social Thread or going through the Question and Answer thread that is stickied in this forum. Thanks a bunch guys :3