Is Link really considered that bad in PM 3.6?

[FrankDaTank]

I've always thought he was fairly good in Project M. He has as much range as Marth, a decent amount of KO options and good setups into them from his grab or just from combos (f-air, d-air, up-B, n-air), a decent amount of combo oriented moves (b-air, d-smash, u-smash, up air, boomerang, bombs) and he has good overall options in terms of keeping opponents away from him. Plus, his Up-B OoS is a decent option.

So why is he considered such a bad character? I usually do alright with him. It might just be because I've played him since he was considered bad in every other Smash game, but really, is Link truthfully THAT bad in PM?

 

[JesteRace]

No one is THAT bad in PM. Even low tier characters in PM are good characters. It's just that relative to the rest of the cast, Link is a little lacking. He also has a couple downright abysmal matchups. I would place Link as a solid mid-tier. Like, right around #20 if I was making a tier list. I definitely understand when people put him a bit lower, but I wouldn't put him in the bottom 10 though. His MU spread is better than a bottom 10 character.

 

[AthleticNerd93]

No one is THAT bad in PM. Even low tier characters in PM are good characters. It's just that relative to the rest of the cast, Link is a little lacking. He also has a couple downright abysmal matchups. I would place Link as a solid mid-tier. Like, right around #20 if I was making a tier list. I definitely understand when people put him a bit lower, but I wouldn't put him in the bottom 10 though. His MU spread is better than a bottom 10 character.

What are his worst matchups?

 

[JesteRace]

Sheik/Falco/Falcon, in that order. Some would argue Fox, but I don't think he's that bad.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I think link is top 10 in pm. Of course tier lists don't say much in pm as the game is very balanced, but he has amazing combo game, neutral, recovery, and kill confirms which makes him a very good character imo.

 

[AthleticNerd93]

I feel if I play someone the same skill level, I don't have problems with spacies. What makes the Falco matchup bad, just the lazers? Combo food?

 

[JesteRace]

When a spacie gets in on Link, he is 100% combo food. He also has zero options against good shield pressure. Zero. If they let up for a second, you get to roll away and hope they don't read it. That's it. Otherwise, you get hit and you get combo'd. But we're Link, so we know how to keep people out. Start throwing stuff, oh wait, you can't because you're getting screen-wide, transcendent, auto-canceled lasers with hitstun in your face. Fox is tough too, because of his speed, but if he tries to shoot lasers, he eats projectiles, and if he approaches, you can read the incoming aerial since you're not getting blasted in the face. Wolf is the easiest of the three, imo, because he's not blindingly fast like Fox and his lasers aren't on the level of Falco's. His pressure and combo game are even better on us, though, so be careful.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I also consider Fox/Falco top 10 in the current PM meta just because they are so developed, but not so much wolf. I am fairly certain most forums say that the Falco matchup is hard for what ever character, just because it is easy to say, "lasers are good." Now of course this is true for some characters, but it isn't really enough to say that a character has a bad matchup against him. It is true that good pressure is hard to punish with a tether grab, so it is most likly leaning in Fox/Falco's favor, but it doesn't seem like a bad matchup.

 

[Thor]

Link is pretty mediocre, maybe outright bad. I put him at mid-low, or maybe even low [as I haven't labbed out some of the characters I've heard are worse than him very hard]. He's got a lot of flaws that become more and more apparent as the level of play rises, and while his grab is one, it's not a back-breaker on its own, just one more straw.

I think link is top 10 in pm. Of course tier lists don't say much in pm as the game is very balanced, but he has amazing combo game, neutral, recovery, and kill confirms which makes him a very good character imo.

Combo game? No not really. On fastfallers it's decent, but that's true vs most. If you DI his combos well, his best thing is really just trying to not let you land with uair.

Neutral? ...again, not really. You can deploy hitboxes to go through boomerangs and bomb pulls take a long time [long enough for many characters to punish almost on reaction, if not outright on reaction]. His nair is worse than in Melee and jab is quite slow, while his movement speed is only envied by maybe Jigglypuff, lacking any semblance of a threatening dash-dance and being poorly suited to aggression.

If you don't know how to navigate projectiles, then sure, it's good, but if you understand how to weave through his stuff, he's got bad close-quarters frame data and has to rely a lot on CCing, which most of the good characters break VERY quickly.

Recovery? It's... passable? It's really on the wrong side of good, where tightly timed ledge refreshes will spell his doom very quickly. It doesn't go very far on its own, and you can interrupt bomb jumps with a variety of tatctics [including just jumping into up+b or throwing projectiles at Link or the bomb]. It's not as bad as some make it out, but it's very much edgeguard-able, most people just don't put in the time learning to do because Link has never been very relevant.

Kill confirms? Eh... his grab is risky, spin attack can be punished with Falcon Punch out of shield [I'm not exaggerating, test it if you don't believe me], dair has a lot of lag and isn't safe when it bounces on someone's shield either, fair is passable but very predictable and easily DI'd, and he doesn't have ways to reliably set up into these things unless someone DIs badly [not reliable against good players] or gets grabbed [which is risky and also doesn't fully function correctly].

He has tools, but they just are lacking compared to most of the cast.

He also has plenty of bad MUs: Fox utterly destroys Link [beats him in neutral and a technical Fox probably wins the punish game too, given how waveshines can't really be escaped by SDIing out... if the Fox can actually pay attention while waveshining and reverse directions as needed, every shine leads to a stock or Link on the edge. Also Link has literally no offensive answers to drillshine shield pressure, although I'm probably going to look into seeing how intentionally jumping into shine changes things, based on some stuff M2K said at the summit about shine pressure related to Sheik]. Falco beats Link handily, and people think Sheik does too [although there's some interesting stuff about that MU that might make it not so bad]. Falcon bops Link pretty cleanly and Marth Link is even or possibly favors Marth slightly.

Link then has a variety of MUs that I'm not so familiar with, but losing to half the Melee top tiers, and the best character in the game badly, is definitely not the ticket to being a top 10 character. [I've he also loses to Diddy Kong, ROB, ZSS, Mario, and TL, though I can't confirm or deny any of those]. One of his saving graces is that he is supposed to beat two relevant high tiers - Samus and Game and Watch.

In the end, I think Link is a better character in PM than Melee, but he's probably in about the same position on a PM tier list as a Melee one if you compare them [mid-low in Melee at like 18th/26 vs probably in the 30s in PM's cast of 45 or whatever it is].

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGVHhw2sZzs
It's Medz (fox) vs Blue (link). They are both top tier AZ players and I think this set shows the matchup pretty well. Medz was the player who put Blue in losers so you can watch that as well.

PS: both these characters beat Axe the pikachu player to get to GF, now of course than doesn't mean a huge amount but they are clearly very good at the game.

 

[AthleticNerd93]

watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGVHhw2sZzs
It's Medz (fox) vs Blue (link). They are both top tier AZ players and I think this set shows the matchup pretty well. Medz was the player who put Blue in losers so you can watch that as well.

PS: both these characters beat Axe the pikachu player to get to GF, now of course than doesn't mean a huge amount but they are clearly very good at the game.

is there footage of Blue v Axe?

 

[trancex]

is there footage of Blue v Axe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r57AequbfUA

There you go.

 

[Thor]

watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGVHhw2sZzs
It's Medz (fox) vs Blue (link). They are both top tier AZ players and I think this set shows the matchup pretty well. Medz was the player who put Blue in losers so you can watch that as well.

PS: both these characters beat Axe the pikachu player to get to GF, now of course than doesn't mean a huge amount but they are clearly very good at the game.

Seen it, I'm aware of how ridiculously unbelievably good Blue is [he's been playing for less than a year]. Medz doesn't waveshine into repeated waveshines and doesn't even attempt to drillshine pressure when he hits shield [which if correctly executed, force a roll, spotdodge, or shieldstab - up+B, nair, and grab are ALL too slow to stop it]. He is at least relatively consistent with shine -> wavedash grab, but he can be getting more than he is.

Medz is really good, but he isn't a PM Fox pinnacle. Blue is more or less the PM Link pinnacle [you could argue Hero of Time, but that's his only real competition]. There's clearly a lot more Fox, and while Blue still has his own stuff to learn, his punish game is already phenomal, while Medz... Medz has more he should be doing [actually, Medz plays really well games 4 and 5 of set 2, but his set 1... it looked frankly somewhat lacking]. Blue is outplaying Medz by more than a little, and that's why he won.

Tll;dr: This doesn't show the MU very well unless you're looking at a Fox with a punish game below where Fox at the top of the metagame is. If Fox were punishing harder, this could definitely be a different story.

 

[EmptySky00]

At his core he shouldn't be bad, but the PMDT in all their wisdom (Probably a select few members who need to bite the curb imho) stuck their ***** into the pudding far too much. If they didn't punt on his Usmash and grab and throws (namely nerfing Uthrow) and they didn't do the idiotic compensatory boomerang nerf while TL is literally running around with bombs that encase God's wrath, then he'd be a pretty solid character.


But alas, we're stuck with yet another bad version of Link forever. Smash traditions never die. At least we're not Pit. The person who did that character in 3.5 should be arrested for **** and manslaughter.

 

[JesteRace]

Give me 3.61 with the fixed grab and up smash and I D G A F. Link is fine if his moves just work like they're supposed to.

 

[EmptySky00]

At least close enough. I think 3.61 should be tournament standard. As long as there are no legal implications for the Dev Team then I think it's perfectly reasonable. I honestly just refuse to play Link in 3.6. Even in 3.61 I don't like him that much but at least he works.

By the way, since we're on this topic, whomever came up with the contrived ass solution to Link's Usmash in 3.61 instead of just reverting it to when it worked is a magnificent ****** and I would like to tell you that to your face. I was just telling my cousin I hope there's a special section of hell reserved for people who ruined the characters they have no business touching because they obviously don't even ****ing play them. Nice going. You effectively made this game and the world worse with your existence.

 

[JesteRace]

At least close enough. I think 3.61 should be tournament standard. As long as there are no legal implications for the Dev Team then I think it's perfectly reasonable. I honestly just refuse to play Link in 3.6. Even in 3.61 I don't like him that much but at least he works.

By the way, since we're on this topic, whomever came up with the contrived *** solution to Link's Usmash in 3.61 instead of just reverting it to when it worked is a magnificent ****** and I would like to tell you that to your face. I was just telling my cousin I hope there's a special section of hell reserved for people who ruined the characters they have no business touching because they obviously don't even ****ing play them. Nice going. You effectively made this game and the world worse with your existence.

Uhhhhhh

1. Pretty sure up smash got boned due to a universal SDI change. Where they were going with this, we don't know. We were not the only character affected.

2. The contrived fix is likely the best Shadic could do. He couldn't just revert it back to normal because he'd be reverting the universal SDI change.

3. Shadic definitely doesn't deserve hell for trying to come up with a workaround that other characters that got affected weren't gonna get.

4. You. Need. To. Chill. Out.

 

[EmptySky00]

I wasn't referring to Shadic in any way. Lol. PMDT was a cesspool of bureaucracy and autism. Unfortunately.




And don't tell me to chill out. That really irritates me. I was calm in the first place. Don't make assumptions. The people I'm talking about did their damage and it is now irreversible, so the least I can do is spit venom at them on a useless internet forum for my own amusement.

 

[JesteRace]

Ah, autism as an insult. How charming.

Shadic was the one who came up with the workaround for Link's upsmash... so yeah, you were pretty clearly referring to him lol.

Bruh.

Chill out.

 

[Thor]

This thread got weird... >_>

Incidentally, I'm something of a pessimist about PM Link [as far as I can tell], but I'm far more optimistic about fighting Falcon than most [it seems], and I main Melee Link, so in no way does my assertion that Link is mediocre suggest I will ditch the character, only that I'm frustrated with how he ended up.

Who knows, maybe Blue and Hero of Time (or someone else, be it another Link main, myself (with a good dose of time), or exploration into other characters) can change my opinion, but I look at them and seem them outplaying people rather remarkably with a passable [but lower/low-end character], rather than just Link being good and them being very good.

 

[TurboLink]

At his core he shouldn't be bad, but the PMDT in all their wisdom (Probably a select few members who need to bite the curb imho) stuck their ***** into the pudding far too much. If they didn't punt on his Usmash and grab and throws (namely nerfing Uthrow) and they didn't do the idiotic compensatory boomerang nerf while TL is literally running around with bombs that encase God's wrath, then he'd be a pretty solid character.


But alas, we're stuck with yet another bad version of Link forever. Smash traditions never die. At least we're not Pit. The person who did that character in 3.5 should be arrested for **** and manslaughter.

Bruh, I swear like in every ****ing smash game Link is deliberately made to be inferior/outshined to/by Toon Link. One of the reasons why I really can't stand the character. And I'm really tired of it.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I'm not dedicated to any main in PM, but I think that link, while definitely not as good in 3.6 as 3.02 obviously, is definitely a character that can still do some good work. He has a really strong neutral, punish, and combo game on medium/ heavy characters, and fast fallers in general. He's got great zoning tools, even if they've been weakened. That just means you have to be more careful of when you put em out there. His normals recover considerably well still, except for maybe the two hits of forward smash. Nair is a decent tool in general for stuffing some approaches, covering a landing on a cross up, and gimping weak recovering opponents off stage. For a comparison for anyone who is familiar with melee, comparatively, I'd say he' s about where Doc or Luigi would be in terms of viability. If you fight someone who isn't familiar, you've got a great way to use the element of surprise with his recovery with the bomb jumpin, and covering the ledge with the long lasting sweetspotted up-b. down tilt is a solid launcher, arrows at a mid to full charge hurt, and do the work for the off stage gimps for you too. But like I said, my experience isn't all that in depth, but it all seems like Link is capable. It just takes a lot more work and dedication. And that's kind of exciting in my opinion. You guys get the opportunity to build on a character people are already counting out as weak. I really think theres something there with link.

 

[EmptySky00]

Ah, autism as an insult. How charming.

Shadic was the one who came up with the workaround for Link's upsmash... so yeah, you were pretty clearly referring to him lol.

Bruh.

Chill out.

Don't tell me to chill out. I can also use anything as an insult that I wish. I'm not trying to charm you. You're not going to obstruct my freedom of vulgar expression with your PC rule sharking; your feelings mean nothing to me.

Link's Usmash was fixed pre-3.6 release, but bureaucracy said otherwise and some idiot ruined it apparently. I'm referring to *that* group. So what now, bruh?


On another note, I think that if at some point in the future (even if it's only after the statute of limitations for being ****ed by the man lawl is up), we adopt the bug fixes, 3.61 Link is perfectly fine as a character. I just detest 3.6 Link. I've basically been exclusively playing that for friendlies and in post-tournament games because *wow* I don't have to play with a bugged character it's amazing.

As it stands Link is an ok'ish mid tier whose grab and Usmash are broken for no reason. And it's annoying. I'm perfectly fine with his power level as a character, but I detest when my moves don't work and that makes me not want to play him.

 

[JesteRace]

Don't tell me to chill out. I can also use anything as an insult that I wish. I'm not trying to charm you. You're not going to obstruct my freedom of vulgar expression with your PC rule sharking; your feelings mean nothing to me.

Link's Usmash was fixed pre-3.6 release, but bureaucracy said otherwise and some idiot ruined it apparently. I'm referring to *that* group. So what now, bruh?

*passes out from the edginess
*wakes up, reads this stupid **** again*
PFFFFFFFFTTTTTT HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA alright then

Anyways, Thor , what makes you relatively optimistic about the Falcon matchup? Cause I'm still kind of in the opposite camp. I feel like the Fox matchup is a lot more doable than Falco/Sheik/Falcon, personally. Sometimes I feel like Falcon is the worst of them all (but that could stem from my unyielding rage towards the character. Seriously, he's pure horse ****). Perhaps you could shed some light, cause currently Falcon is in the "give up and play Luigi instead" camp for me.

 

[Thor]

*passes out from the edginess
*wakes up, reads this stupid **** again*
PFFFFFFFFTTTTTT HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA alright then

Anyways, Thor , what makes you relatively optimistic about the Falcon matchup? Cause I'm still kind of in the opposite camp. I feel like the Fox matchup is a lot more doable than Falco/Sheik/Falcon, personally. Sometimes I feel like Falcon is the worst of them all (but that could stem from my unyielding rage towards the character. Seriously, he's pure horse ****). Perhaps you could shed some light, cause currently Falcon is in the "give up and play Luigi instead" camp for me.

In one sentence: Falcon doesn't have the shield pressure that Fox has.

To explain with a lot more than just that:

Spoiler: Fox and Falcon vs Link stuff

Fox and Falcon are both bad for us to deal with in neutral. The problem is, we have to approach Fox. Even if we stand still [or walk forward], Fox can hit us with his SH lasers [it's tricky but possible, and although Link might be able to duck and stand to avoid all lasers or shield them, it's certainly not practical]. The biggest problem is that we have to approach Fox then, and his CC shine and CC grab are both very potent [never mind what CC usmash will do at high percents if you aren't very careful].

Falcon, on the other hand, has to come to us. If you stand still/duck and Falcon only shorthops in place and presses B [or any attack button], it's a tie. Yes, engaging with Falcon's dash dance is very difficult. But you don't actually have to engage with it. Although doing so is no easy task, you can actually stuff most of Falcon's approaches. A nair will easily beat a stomp or knee approach, and it will stuff out grab as well [although CCing is a problem]. You can also try to squeeze or trade our nair in between Falcon's [not terribly practical]. You can also often jab a knee approach or a grab [or just shield it, if it's a high knee it's not very safe], and you can utilt both stomp and knee approaches if you're fast about it [utilting nair feels awkward to me, it's certainly doable with the back half against his second-hit nair]. Furthermore, you can CC nair and dsmash him or grab him [I think if you actually crouch the second hit of nair, dsmash is guaranteed for a while]. While this isn't safe at 0%, it quickly becomes safe (if you landed a boomerang or two or whatever - I think it starts to be safe on hit or ASDI down [not CC] about 25% or so), and a retreating [or advancing] zair can also break up his any of his approach aerials and grabs.

Fox's CC shine is a huge issue for Link, but Falcon's most dangerous CC option against us is grab [which Fox has anyway, and while he doesn't have uthrow knee, uthrow bair and uthrow uair still exist]. However, as I mentioned, we can CC Falcon's quick startup options [sans grab], and but we can't CC Fox drill, and CCing strong nair -> shine is almost never gonna happen [we can probably CC shield, but we can't punish it].

Falcon can combo the mess out of us, but with good DI, his combo game doesn't really lead into knee very well, except off stomp. Fox combo game is less potent in terms of aerials, but waveshines are something Link can't really escape without them messing up, and Fox still has the speed to walk Link around the stage and tech chase off his aerials.

Where differences really show up (to me) is shield pressure though. Falcon and Fox both have strong grab games [Falcon's is better for sure against Link], but Falcon's moves, while safe on shield [ish], don't let Falcon engage in extended shield pressure sequences. Stomp -> jab or stomp -> grab are things Falcon can go for on shield, but you can up+b or grab gentleman on shield as far as I know [CC or SDI rapid jabs if they come out]. If Fox does drillshine -> drillshine -> ... on our shield, we literally can't attack it offensively if they're perfect - drill is at worst -7 on shield, shine is frame 1, and nair is frame 9 [5 jumpsquat + 4 startup) as is up+b (1 jumpsqaut + 8 startup), with grab being frame 11 and everything else being worse. I play at least one Fox main who continuously wears down my shield throughout the game with extended drillshine drillshine drillshine, and while rolling out or spotdodging can stop the shield damage, Fox can follow up if he reads the roll [and even if he doesn't, he usually has some form of advantage since shield is worn down if you don't roll immediately]... and that's ignoring the fact that he can shinegrab you out of his pressure, which is something Link also can't offensively punish (spotdodge or roll). I'm pretty sure I shield more than most Link players, which is part of why this is something I seem to value more than other Links [I know Blue usually rolls almost immediately if a Fox touches his shield], but Fox has the speed and tools to "force" us to shield, and the ability to prevent any offensive retaliation. Falcon may make shielding seem necessary, but he won't hammer your shield for more than a few hits.

In terms of recovery, Falcon is more gimpable than Fox, with raptor boost being ok, but taking ledge with a correctly timed refresh mostly shuts that option off, while his up+b is much laggier than Fox's.

Falcon kills pretty easily with uthrow knee, but Fox can waveshine usmash or uthrow uair [IDK if second-hit only uair can be done consistently, but I think Fox can also just do uthrow bair for a lot of percents], so I don't see myself live very long vs either character.

There's a lot more to it than that, but I've gone on more than long enough... in short, Falcon has a better combo game, but a Fox proficient at waveshining can often match [or come close to] Falcon's combo game, and waveshining is less receptive to DI than Falcon stuff [although waveshines can be SDI'd, thankfully]. Fox forces us to approach, while Falcon can't really do that, and his CC and recovery are worse, making some of Link's tools work better. That, combined with his inability to attack Link's shield with impunity, makes the Falcon MU a lot easier [though still hard] than fighting Fox in my opinion.

That said, go Luigi if Luigi works for you in the MU. I think having backups for Link to deal with personal MU issues [or actual ones, Fox/Falcon/Falco/MK are all almost certainly in that list (and there may be more)] is probably a good idea for most people.

 

[Denjinpachi]

In one sentence: Falcon doesn't have the shield pressure that Fox has.

To explain with a lot more than just that:

Spoiler: Fox and Falcon vs Link stuff

Fox and Falcon are both bad for us to deal with in neutral. The problem is, we have to approach Fox. Even if we stand still [or walk forward], Fox can hit us with his SH lasers [it's tricky but possible, and although Link might be able to duck and stand to avoid all lasers or shield them, it's certainly not practical]. The biggest problem is that we have to approach Fox then, and his CC shine and CC grab are both very potent [never mind what CC usmash will do at high percents if you aren't very careful].

Falcon, on the other hand, has to come to us. If you stand still/duck and Falcon only shorthops in place and presses B [or any attack button], it's a tie. Yes, engaging with Falcon's dash dance is very difficult. But you don't actually have to engage with it. Although doing so is no easy task, you can actually stuff most of Falcon's approaches. A nair will easily beat a stomp or knee approach, and it will stuff out grab as well [although CCing is a problem]. You can also try to squeeze or trade our nair in between Falcon's [not terribly practical]. You can also often jab a knee approach or a grab [or just shield it, if it's a high knee it's not very safe], and you can utilt both stomp and knee approaches if you're fast about it [utilting nair feels awkward to me, it's certainly doable with the back half against his second-hit nair]. Furthermore, you can CC nair and dsmash him or grab him [I think if you actually crouch the second hit of nair, dsmash is guaranteed for a while]. While this isn't safe at 0%, it quickly becomes safe (if you landed a boomerang or two or whatever - I think it starts to be safe on hit or ASDI down [not CC] about 25% or so), and a retreating [or advancing] zair can also break up his any of his approach aerials and grabs.

Fox's CC shine is a huge issue for Link, but Falcon's most dangerous CC option against us is grab [which Fox has anyway, and while he doesn't have uthrow knee, uthrow bair and uthrow uair still exist]. However, as I mentioned, we can CC Falcon's quick startup options [sans grab], and but we can't CC Fox drill, and CCing strong nair -> shine is almost never gonna happen [we can probably CC shield, but we can't punish it].

Falcon can combo the mess out of us, but with good DI, his combo game doesn't really lead into knee very well, except off stomp. Fox combo game is less potent in terms of aerials, but waveshines are something Link can't really escape without them messing up, and Fox still has the speed to walk Link around the stage and tech chase off his aerials.

Where differences really show up (to me) is shield pressure though. Falcon and Fox both have strong grab games [Falcon's is better for sure against Link], but Falcon's moves, while safe on shield [ish], don't let Falcon engage in extended shield pressure sequences. Stomp -> jab or stomp -> grab are things Falcon can go for on shield, but you can up+b or grab gentleman on shield as far as I know [CC or SDI rapid jabs if they come out]. If Fox does drillshine -> drillshine -> ... on our shield, we literally can't attack it offensively if they're perfect - drill is at worst -7 on shield, shine is frame 1, and nair is frame 9 [5 jumpsquat + 4 startup) as is up+b (1 jumpsqaut + 8 startup), with grab being frame 11 and everything else being worse. I play at least one Fox main who continuously wears down my shield throughout the game with extended drillshine drillshine drillshine, and while rolling out or spotdodging can stop the shield damage, Fox can follow up if he reads the roll [and even if he doesn't, he usually has some form of advantage since shield is worn down if you don't roll immediately]... and that's ignoring the fact that he can shinegrab you out of his pressure, which is something Link also can't offensively punish (spotdodge or roll). I'm pretty sure I shield more than most Link players, which is part of why this is something I seem to value more than other Links [I know Blue usually rolls almost immediately if a Fox touches his shield], but Fox has the speed and tools to "force" us to shield, and the ability to prevent any offensive retaliation. Falcon may make shielding seem necessary, but he won't hammer your shield for more than a few hits.

In terms of recovery, Falcon is more gimpable than Fox, with raptor boost being ok, but taking ledge with a correctly timed refresh mostly shuts that option off, while his up+b is much laggier than Fox's.

Falcon kills pretty easily with uthrow knee, but Fox can waveshine usmash or uthrow uair [IDK if second-hit only uair can be done consistently, but I think Fox can also just do uthrow bair for a lot of percents], so I don't see myself live very long vs either character.

There's a lot more to it than that, but I've gone on more than long enough... in short, Falcon has a better combo game, but a Fox proficient at waveshining can often match [or come close to] Falcon's combo game, and waveshining is less receptive to DI than Falcon stuff [although waveshines can be SDI'd, thankfully]. Fox forces us to approach, while Falcon can't really do that, and his CC and recovery are worse, making some of Link's tools work better. That, combined with his inability to attack Link's shield with impunity, makes the Falcon MU a lot easier [though still hard] than fighting Fox in my opinion.

That said, go Luigi if Luigi works for you in the MU. I think having backups for Link to deal with personal MU issues [or actual ones, Fox/Falcon/Falco/MK are all almost certainly in that list (and there may be more)] is probably a good idea for most people.

Just a note I wanted to see might help out with the Fox/Falcon comparison, if not already mentioned: Both characters are limited in how they can defend the ledge if you recover from below, or slightly further out from the stage. They have good reach with their ledge hop Bairs, but the timing ive found for both of them to utilize it without trading is too strict for it to be a risk either can consistently take. The invulnerability general runs out before the ledge hop bair can hit you if you Up-B below the stage, or even if Falcon wants to ledge hop dair onto the stage, the angle link swings makes it nearly impossible, if not completely impossible to hit before the intangibility fades. So its literally a high risk for either of them to attempt to edge guard link if your recovery isn't predictable. Now, that can easily go out the window if you get snagged on almost ANY aerial move while tethering. if you do it too slow, or they cover the rise of the tether with a bair towards the ledge, it can cause a stage spike or "stage tech" situation. I've seen it happen a lot, and im sure you've dealt with it in melee too.

 

[Denjinpachi]

*passes out from the edginess
*wakes up, reads this stupid **** again*
PFFFFFFFFTTTTTT HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA alright then

Anyways, Thor , what makes you relatively optimistic about the Falcon matchup? Cause I'm still kind of in the opposite camp. I feel like the Fox matchup is a lot more doable than Falco/Sheik/Falcon, personally. Sometimes I feel like Falcon is the worst of them all (but that could stem from my unyielding rage towards the character. Seriously, he's pure horse ****). Perhaps you could shed some light, cause currently Falcon is in the "give up and play Luigi instead" camp for me.

If you don't mind me giving my two cents on Falcon, and piggybacking on what Thor mentioned with his reply, link gets the benefit of being able to stale off, or maintain the neutral with his projectiles, if you use them with a good sense of spacing and timing. While, yes falcon maintains a very strong punish game, your edge guarding game is really strong with your ability to gimp with projectiles, deny horizontal stage returns with Up-B, and of course grabbing the ledge is the strongest tool if you aren't confident with offensive edge guards because a falcon that Up-b's back to the stage is almost a guaranteed dead man. Unfortunately, I can't speak for link's combo game from an in-depth perspective on falcon, but I'd imagine you have the general benefit of strong damage, and read-based grab follow ups like on any fast follower in the MU. Also, falcons lack a shine, so while it feels like he is pressuring you immensely, if you ever watch another set of a falcon "pressuring" someone, its all based on an aerial beginning, maybe a gentleman, or he runs past or away from you trying to get the read on a roll so he can stomp, or aerial you again. It's all a toss up, but he can follow up on whatever choice he makes because of his speed. Not necessarily because he's pressuring you with actual hits.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Don't tell me to chill out. I can also use anything as an insult that I wish. I'm not trying to charm you. You're not going to obstruct my freedom of vulgar expression with your PC rule sharking; your feelings mean nothing to me.

Link's Usmash was fixed pre-3.6 release, but bureaucracy said otherwise and some idiot ruined it apparently. I'm referring to *that* group. So what now, bruh?


On another note, I think that if at some point in the future (even if it's only after the statute of limitations for being ****ed by the man lawl is up), we adopt the bug fixes, 3.61 Link is perfectly fine as a character. I just detest 3.6 Link. I've basically been exclusively playing that for friendlies and in post-tournament games because *wow* I don't have to play with a bugged character it's amazing.

As it stands Link is an ok'ish mid tier whose grab and Usmash are broken for no reason. And it's annoying. I'm perfectly fine with his power level as a character, but I detest when my moves don't work and that makes me not want to play him.

Why play link if all of his issues are so problematic for you? It sounds like you like link as a character in general, more than you like him in this iteration of smash brothers. Kind seems like a self torture. Unless if im misunderstanding your comments?

 

[JesteRace]

It's not just a personal MU issue that makes me go Luigi. I actually play him in Melee, so he's my backup for almost all of Link's bad matchups, since a lot of them are Melee top tiers, so I know what to do with Luigi, and he does well vs. them in his new-and-improved PM form. I think Marth and possibly Samus are also a great secondary for Links struggling with Melee top tiers.

Now while I am willing to concede that the Foxes in my area are... less than optimized, I'm not entirely convinced that we always have to approach Fox. See, the big thing about Falco for me is that his lasers stuff your ability to get projectiles out, which in turn make it that much easier for him to get in and start his laughably easy combo game on us. Fox's lasers don't do that. All they do is tack on damage (and a hell of a lot less than in Melee, might I add). Meanwhile, he's just sitting there letting me pull bombs and throw rangs. His lasers have the benefit of being screen-wide of course, so he can just run out of range of projectiles and keep shooting. Then our only option is to full hop over the lasers and charge an arrow shot. But this only seems to be a problem on the long, flat stages (I always ban FD/PS2 because of this). So am I missing something here? I know Fox's CC/drillshine/waveshine screw us up, I'm not debating that, Fox definitely wins this matchup solidly, I'm just not seeing the "we're forced to approach" side of things. Not yet, anyway.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Basically, while you and fox can technically return each others projectiles, yours are easier to defend against, and fox can move faster than you, and output more from a better distance from you as well. that kinda is a universal thing that "forces" and approach in the neutral in general.

 

[Thor]

It's not just a personal MU issue that makes me go Luigi. I actually play him in Melee, so he's my backup for almost all of Link's bad matchups, since a lot of them are Melee top tiers, so I know what to do with Luigi, and he does well vs. them in his new-and-improved PM form. I think Marth and possibly Samus are also a great secondary for Links struggling with Melee top tiers.

Now while I am willing to concede that the Foxes in my area are... less than optimized, I'm not entirely convinced that we always have to approach Fox. See, the big thing about Falco for me is that his lasers stuff your ability to get projectiles out, which in turn make it that much easier for him to get in and start his laughably easy combo game on us. Fox's lasers don't do that. All they do is tack on damage (and a hell of a lot less than in Melee, might I add). Meanwhile, he's just sitting there letting me pull bombs and throw rangs. His lasers have the benefit of being screen-wide of course, so he can just run out of range of projectiles and keep shooting. Then our only option is to full hop over the lasers and charge an arrow shot. But this only seems to be a problem on the long, flat stages (I always ban FD/PS2 because of this). So am I missing something here? I know Fox's CC/drillshine/waveshine screw us up, I'm not debating that, Fox definitely wins this matchup solidly, I'm just not seeing the "we're forced to approach" side of things. Not yet, anyway.

If he's smart, he'll attempt to shoot the bombs. Lasers block bombs. If you actually try to jump high enough to where this isn't a huge issue, it might work a few times, but Fox can try to get underneath that and usmash or uair you [or even just shieldgrab a landing, or even try to double jump laser to shoot it back]. And while running at Fox with a bomb is helpful, if he is careful about catching or powershielding stuff, the utility of a bomb is still high but goes down somewhat. Meanwhile Fox can nairplane [or evne drill I think, never mind his bair] though boomerangs, such that if we're throwing stuff and he aerials them away instead of just lasers, we're still kind of stuck. This is as opposed to lasers, which are transcendent. [This is also why I think the Samus MU favors us heavily - we can nair through her missiles [or dair on missiles and charge shot] or just stand still/walk forward to block her missiles/chargeshot, but she has to powershield or block or catch bombs/rang [can't catch those], and her aerial mobility makes attacking through stuff significantly worse.]

This is also an issue on Smashville [where he can take control of center stage whenever the platform moves offstage], and while he can't camp us on smaller stages as effectively [Yoshi's, Battlefield], he can still use lasers somewhat effectively [since they block bombs as mentioned above], but more importantly, that's where his phenomenal offensive pressure [on shield and being up in our face, helping to make bomb pulls a lot more difficult] comes in. I suppose I was mostly thinking of the MU on the longer, flat stages when stating Link has to approach, but Fox can still try to camp on small stages [it's less effective, but because laser decay is based on distance, damage goes up faster] and if Fox can transition effectively between camping and offensive pressure, he becomes more threatening as a whole [though doing so is difficult for most].

Why play link if all of his issues are so problematic for you? It sounds like you like link as a character in general, more than you like him in this iteration of smash brothers. Kind seems like a self torture. Unless if im misunderstanding your comments?

You triple posted - if you could use the edit button instead, that would be wonderful.

 

[Denjinpachi]

If he's smart, he'll attempt to shoot the bombs. Lasers block bombs. If you actually try to jump high enough to where this isn't a huge issue, it might work a few times, but Fox can try to get underneath that and usmash or uair you [or even just shieldgrab a landing, or even try to double jump laser to shoot it back]. And while running at Fox with a bomb is helpful, if he is careful about catching or powershielding stuff, the utility of a bomb is still high but goes down somewhat. Meanwhile Fox can nairplane [or evne drill I think, never mind his bair] though boomerangs, such that if we're throwing stuff and he aerials them away instead of just lasers, we're still kind of stuck. This is as opposed to lasers, which are transcendent. [This is also why I think the Samus MU favors us heavily - we can nair through her missiles [or dair on missiles and charge shot] or just stand still/walk forward to block her missiles/chargeshot, but she has to powershield or block or catch bombs/rang [can't catch those], and her aerial mobility makes attacking through stuff significantly worse.]

This is also an issue on Smashville [where he can take control of center stage whenever the platform moves offstage], and while he can't camp us on smaller stages as effectively [Yoshi's, Battlefield], he can still use lasers somewhat effectively [since they block bombs as mentioned above], but more importantly, that's where his phenomenal offensive pressure [on shield and being up in our face, helping to make bomb pulls a lot more difficult] comes in. I suppose I was mostly thinking of the MU on the longer, flat stages when stating Link has to approach, but Fox can still try to camp on small stages [it's less effective, but because laser decay is based on distance, damage goes up faster] and if Fox can transition effectively between camping and offensive pressure, he becomes more threatening as a whole [though doing so is difficult for most].



You triple posted - if you could use the edit button instead, that would be wonderful.

I have no idea what im doing :D

 

[Denjinpachi]

If he's smart, he'll attempt to shoot the bombs. Lasers block bombs. If you actually try to jump high enough to where this isn't a huge issue, it might work a few times, but Fox can try to get underneath that and usmash or uair you [or even just shieldgrab a landing, or even try to double jump laser to shoot it back]. And while running at Fox with a bomb is helpful, if he is careful about catching or powershielding stuff, the utility of a bomb is still high but goes down somewhat. Meanwhile Fox can nairplane [or evne drill I think, never mind his bair] though boomerangs, such that if we're throwing stuff and he aerials them away instead of just lasers, we're still kind of stuck. This is as opposed to lasers, which are transcendent. [This is also why I think the Samus MU favors us heavily - we can nair through her missiles [or dair on missiles and charge shot] or just stand still/walk forward to block her missiles/chargeshot, but she has to powershield or block or catch bombs/rang [can't catch those], and her aerial mobility makes attacking through stuff significantly worse.]

This is also an issue on Smashville [where he can take control of center stage whenever the platform moves offstage], and while he can't camp us on smaller stages as effectively [Yoshi's, Battlefield], he can still use lasers somewhat effectively [since they block bombs as mentioned above], but more importantly, that's where his phenomenal offensive pressure [on shield and being up in our face, helping to make bomb pulls a lot more difficult] comes in. I suppose I was mostly thinking of the MU on the longer, flat stages when stating Link has to approach, but Fox can still try to camp on small stages [it's less effective, but because laser decay is based on distance, damage goes up faster] and if Fox can transition effectively between camping and offensive pressure, he becomes more threatening as a whole [though doing so is difficult for most].



You triple posted - if you could use the edit button instead, that would be wonderful.

I have no idea what im doing :D

 

[Thor]

Denjinpachi , if you look a the bottom left of your posts, you'll see a button called edit. If you click that, you can edit posts.

I'm going to assume the double post was a result of the internet temporarily slowing down or something like that, but you're not supposed to post stuff twice in a row either. People get infracted for these in a lot of threads, but here I don't think it's an issue [and if it's really an accident, editing the post to say something along the lines of "accidental double post" should avoid infraction if a mod happens upon it, and they'll usually clean it up].

I took a screenshot of one of my own posts with the edit button crudely shown by a red... circlish shape, and attached it, should you still be unable to find the edit button.

Incidentally, in regards to one of your posts above, Falcon and Fox both edgeguard Link extremely effectively if they can ledge-refresh invulnerability correctly, and tethering is often a near-certain KO vs Falcon at high percents [while Fox has a shinespike risk that will often outright KO Link if he doesn't have his double jump, and h can often shine regrab ledge and drop shine or drop DJ bair after the first shine anyway], but if they aren't good at ledge-refreshing, then you'd be correct that edgeguarding can be tricky [although if Fox knows to shinespike Link aiming for the hat, it can be difficult to avoid if you can't effectively mix up going high/low due to distance issues]. However, being able to edgeguard Link effectively with ledge refreshes is nearly universal, and I don't think it makes one MU significantly worse than the other [although I think Fox edgeguards Lnk exceptionally well, recovering with Link vs much of the cast is difficult if they understand how to edgeguard Link].

 

[Denjinpachi]

All right, got it. Thanks

 

[Haden]

you know what I do to beat Falco players? I stand still, my shield stops their range pressure which allows them to use their upfront combos for free, they have to approach me without lasers because the shield sucks them up. If they come to close, I knock them away and keep neutral my own territory.