Is Jigglypuff really that bad?

[SuperScizor]

Jigglypuff has amazing recovery and air moves. My best friend mains her and usually beats me (unless I'm using ROB)

Discuss.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Yeah 'cause she has some of the worst ground game, no range, and no good killers. Oh yeah and being able to die near 80% by most characters isn't good either.

 

[9Kplus1]

Short answer: Yes

 

[*JuriHan*]

Yeah 'cause she has some of the worst ground game, no range, and no good killers. Oh yeah and being able to die near 80% by most characters isn't good either.

Everything here is true except about the dying part. With good DI (use d-air) you should live 120-145% on average. If you are dying at 80% you are doing something horribly wrong with her. Otherwise yes, her lack of range, killing and ground options are what sets her back the most.

 

[Noobicidal]

Oh yeah and being able to die near 80% by most characters isn't good either.

lol @ puff apparently not being able to DI. She's light, but not that light.

Anyway, Jiggs is really that bad.


Edit: Ninja'd about DI

 

[Maniclysane]

Short answer: Yes

short response: I agree.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I think shes bad, but not THAT bad.

Mid E Tier IMO

 

[Mike B]

She can screw ADHD, so she's not the worst.

 

[Jigglymaster]

She can screw ADHD, so she's not the worst.

m2k needs to pick up jigglypuff to beat ADHD.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D tier at MINIMUM. This character can play gay and stupid enough that she really is clearly a notch above characters who are actually low tier.

Pound does a lot of shield damage and owns spotdodges. Superior aerial mobility is excellent offensively and for camping. Grab range is above average. Rest is very threatening and can be trip confirmed into from D-air. Rollout is also a stupid move that is very hard to punish significantly on reaction.

 

[Mike B]

I find Rollout a base for a lot of my KOs when opponents are jut about to land

 

[Jigglymaster]

I find Rollout a base for a lot of my KOs when opponents are jut about to land

IMO rollout works best when they sheild while your charging rollout, then right when it gets to the point that you can sheild poke them release the rollout and they'll get hit if they don't roll or spotdodge (or have a up b like marth)

 

[Frolossus]

jiggs just lacks representation in tourneys

 

[Metatitan]

D tier at MINIMUM. This character can play gay and stupid enough that she really is clearly a notch above characters who are actually low tier.

Pound does a lot of shield damage and owns spotdodges. Superior aerial mobility is excellent offensively and for camping. Grab range is above average. Rest is very threatening and can be trip confirmed into from D-air. Rollout is also a stupid move that is very hard to punish significantly on reaction.

If you think jigglypuff is so good then use her and realize how wrong you really are. Lol @ pound on shield and rollout being hard to punish.

jiggs just lacks representation in tourneys

Because no one wants to use her, they'd rather use someone who can place decently.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Obviously she's bad, but think about it...She doesn't get ***** by Diddy IIRC and it may have changed but she supposedely doesn't get ***** by MK. (idk about that though...)

She still can't handle Snake or Marth...or a lot of peeps...but having to not-**** MU's in top tier has to help.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you think jigglypuff is so good then use her and realize how wrong you really are. Lol @ pound on shield and rollout being hard to punish.

You don't want to actually take a hit from Pound on your shield, and it can be tricky to punish depending on the spacing, and it beats tons of stuff that it really shouldn't, spotdodges included. Once your shield actually does get hit by Pound, you're easily poked by almost anything she wants, and her aerials are all respectably powerful.

Rollout is hard to punish with a kill move, so it's an excellent risk/reward gamble. Particularly if you have your opponent in a disadvantageous position where they can't jump away from it easily. And it kills people at like 60%. It's a very stupid move that you can basically only punish with a projectile.

I'm able to use virtually any character in this game competently minus Falco, Yoshi, or Sonic. Jigglypuff is not bad. She is not that good either, but she's definitely not bad. She has the tools to be fundamentally decent. My friend happens to play a good Jigglypuff too.

This character is clearly better than Bowser, Yoshi, Ike, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf. I'd say she's also slightly better than Ness. This character is STUPIDLY safer on stage than all of those characters, never gets gimped, and edgeguards a lot better than they do. Her grab is also gdlk.

 

[*JuriHan*]

It's a very stupid move that you can basically only punish with a projectile.

Any character's f-smash, and certain specials such as mk's nado and wario's bite can stop rollout.

 

[Metatitan]

Practically every move in the game either beats or clanks with rollout. There's literally no danger if the person knows how to time an attack.

Jigglypuff would have the potential to be mid tier through playing gay enough, if she could consistently get the lead AND keep it. Her attacks don't really do a whole lot of damage, she has no good air->ground transition aside from Uair or Nair and she's not good at approaching.

It's not that she cant play gay enough, it's mostly getting the lead and keeping it (not to mention you're probably gonna have to run the timer out on three stocks leaving you the entire time to make one mistake and get killed).

By all means don't let me telling you jiggs sucks stop you from playing her, if you're having fun using her then by all means use her. Just don't try to tell me she's better than ______, _______, and ______ without stating why the other characters are worse. Every low tier main thinks the other low tiers are worse than the low tier they main.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Practically every move in the game either beats or clanks with rollout. There's literally no danger if the person knows how to time an attack.

Jigglypuff would have the potential to be mid tier through playing gay enough, if she could consistently get the lead AND keep it. Her attacks don't really do a whole lot of damage, she has no good air->ground transition aside from Uair or Nair and she's not good at approaching.

It's not that she cant play gay enough, it's mostly getting the lead and keeping it (not to mention you're probably gonna have to run the timer out on three stocks leaving you the entire time to make one mistake and get killed).

By all means don't let me telling you jiggs sucks stop you from playing her, if you're having fun using her then by all means use her. Just don't try to tell me she's better than ______, _______, and ______ without stating why the other characters are worse. Every low tier main thinks the other low tiers are worse than the low tier they main.

I agree. I'm so used to Jigglypuff that she's one of the only characters that I get a very good feel for. I'm starting to pick up D3 so I'm not a total failure against high tiers, but Jigglypuff wil always be my main .

 

[Noobicidal]

Every low tier main thinks the other low tiers are worse than the low tier they main.

Apparently someone hasn't met the resident Ganon main.

LOL.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, not that she's BAD bad, it's that with other characters that are better than her, she's got the position she has in the SBR's tierlist/public's minds.

I think Jiggs is awesome... But I wouldn't use her in a tourney. Too many characters like punishing her since her disjoints are still pretty close to her hurtbox, making it easy to punish her eventually.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Practically every move in the game either beats or clanks with rollout. There's literally no danger if the person knows how to time an attack.

Jigglypuff would have the potential to be mid tier through playing gay enough, if she could consistently get the lead AND keep it. Her attacks don't really do a whole lot of damage, she has no good air->ground transition aside from Uair or Nair and she's not good at approaching.

It's not that she cant play gay enough, it's mostly getting the lead and keeping it (not to mention you're probably gonna have to run the timer out on three stocks leaving you the entire time to make one mistake and get killed).

By all means don't let me telling you jiggs sucks stop you from playing her, if you're having fun using her then by all means use her. Just don't try to tell me she's better than ______, _______, and ______ without stating why the other characters are worse. Every low tier main thinks the other low tiers are worse than the low tier they main.

The problem with punishing rollout is that she can change directions. If she stalls a bit and THEN rushes into you after you do an attack, then you just got killed at 60-70%. It's stupidly hard to punish rollout without a projectile, and more importantly, you can't punish it with a kill move. It's a VERY good risk/reward gamble. Even G&W has to think twice before throwing out a F-smash when Jigglypuff does Rollout. This is a very stupidly hard move to punish.

Jigglypuff also has a gdlk grab, and OUTZONES most of the cast with safely spaced aerials.

This character is not bottom tier. As I stated, clearly D tier at minimum, much better than the garbage in this game that can't do anything safe on shield. She can make up for a lack of kills by simply edgeguarding, and she's quite good at edgeguarding.

As for why she's better than the characters I listed I will edit in why in a minute.

EDIT:

Ness: Jigglypuff is MUCH better at spacing than this character. Ness doesn't have anything that is amazing for zoning. His F-air is moderately annoying at best, and most characters can trade hits and win against that if they have good timing/spacing. Ness is not a fast character in terms of startup or ending lag, and his mobility isn't godlike. He is a very outclassed character at consistent damage dealing. There is only one thing he's good at, and that's getting a kill when the opponent reaches KO percents. This character otherwise suffers from having the worst range in the game and not being fast in any way, AND being easily edgeguarded and comboed off of grab release.

Bowser: Bowser is bad. He can't approach you in any way that isn't easily countered on reaction or through smart play. His Klaw is ALMOST a good approach, except it hits frame 17. Too slow. And he realistically can't do anything safe on defenses besides that. Firebreath and D-smash get punished by SDI, and this character has what is probably the worst non-tether recovery in the game. This character has no form of safe priority or mobility mixup offstage, and his lack of vertical distance means he is ALWAYS in range to be punished offstage. Bowser prides a lot on his out of shield game, which becomes not so good once you learn that you can space on his shield in such a way that his Up-B will not hit you. He is also heavily crippled by projectile camping and juggle traps.

Yoshi: Yoshi doesn't have any real approach, but instead has good camping. Or something that resembles good camping. Egg tosses are easily powershielded, and he can't really force you to retreat, and his pivot grab shenanigans are only good if you don't know how to approach past them. His punishable recovery, EXTREMELY low KO power and bad KO application in general, and his inability to really threaten you with anything makes this character horrible, and suffering from a 17 frame shield drop AND shieldgrab makes once you hit his shield, he can't do anything if you know what you're doing.

Ike is COMPLETE garbage that can't do anything. His F-air is powershieldable on reaction. His Jabs can be shieldgrabbed at any range if he hits your shield and you know the timing. This character really can't reaslitically edgeguard or juggle you because he's slow and laggy. He's the only character who can't do two aerials in a fullhop. This is a predictable, limited, and horrible character with next to no favorable matchups. He actually goes about neutral with Ganondorf, THE worst character in the game.

Captain Falcon is also garbage. His low priority makes his approach predictable and counterable, and this character really can't do anything that will kill you at respectable percents if you play conservatively. Bad shieldgrab range also sucks for this character, and a horrible recovery also cripples this character.

Zelda is also complete garbage that can't do anything. She can only attempt to wall with tilts, Smashes, and Din's Fire, all of which are avoidable on reaction AND punishable with intelligent spacing and zoning. Her recovery is also bad and punishable, and she has no approach.

Link really can't kill you very easily at all. His KO power is unexpectedly low outside of like D-air and 2nd hit of D-smash. He gets juggled easily, sucks when you pressure him, and gets gimped by anyone easily especially if he doesn't DI well.

Ganondorf is Ganondorf. No other character in this game can claim to be unable to do anything to spotdodge on reaction. Getting gimped, **** trapped/comboed, and having horrible grabs at this point are overkill.

 

[*JuriHan*]

The problem with punishing rollout is that she can change directions. If she stalls a bit and THEN rushes into you after you do an attack, then you just got killed at 60-70%. It's stupidly hard to punish rollout without a projectile, and more importantly, you can't punish it with a kill move. It's a VERY good risk/reward gamble. Even G&W has to think twice before throwing out a F-smash when Jigglypuff does Rollout. This is a very stupidly hard move to punish.

You know i play nothing but offline now. I'll use rollout more if I intend to kill and see if it's as good as you say. And I'll put the match up.

 

[Metatitan]

The problem with punishing rollout is that she can change directions. If she stalls a bit and THEN rushes into you after you do an attack, then you just got killed at 60-70%. It's stupidly hard to punish rollout without a projectile, and more importantly, you can't punish it with a kill move. It's a VERY good risk/reward gamble. Even G&W has to think twice before throwing out a F-smash when Jigglypuff does Rollout. This is a very stupidly hard move to punish.

The only case rollout is useful is if they're charging a smash. I think you don't understand just how little priority rollout has, not to mention that the whole turning factor doesn't make it anymore useful. Rollout has lag at the end of it and most characters if timed right can in fact shield grab it or shield and punish OoS. The only place you'll consistently get away unpunished is wifi.

Jigglypuff also has a gdlk grab, and OUTZONES most of the cast with safely spaced aerials.

She's got a pretty good grab range and they all do a nice amount of damage (as does her pummel) but they don't combo. Outzones? You mean just floating up where no one can touch you (or you touch them for that matter) and camp for eight minutes? You still need a lead, and a lot of her attacks are very punishable OoS.

This character is not bottom tier. As I stated, clearly D tier at minimum, much better than the garbage in this game that can't do anything safe on shield. She can make up for a lack of kills by simply edgeguarding, and she's quite good at edgeguarding.

Edgeguarding what, an ike? Her run and fall speed are too pitiful for her to be the master of gimps like she used to be. Get a character with bad recovery, horrible fall speed like you and terrible aerial range and then you can easily control them off stage.

As for why she's better than the characters I listed I will edit in why in a minute.

EDIT:

Ness: Jigglypuff is MUCH better at spacing than this character. Ness doesn't have anything that is amazing for zoning. His F-air is moderately annoying at best, and most characters can trade hits and win against that if they have good timing/spacing. Ness is not a fast character in terms of startup or ending lag, and his mobility isn't godlike. He is a very outclassed character at consistent damage dealing. There is only one thing he's good at, and that's getting a kill when the opponent reaches KO percents. This character otherwise suffers from having the worst range in the game and not being fast in any way, AND being easily edgeguarded and comboed off of grab release.

Ness' Fair is really good, idk why you would call it annoying at best. He has great aerial mobility and unlike jigglypuff, he can kill. You're seriously underestimating this character.

Bowser: Bowser is bad. He can't approach you in any way that isn't easily countered on reaction or through smart play. His Klaw is ALMOST a good approach, except it hits frame 17. Too slow. And he realistically can't do anything safe on defenses besides that. Firebreath and D-smash get punished by SDI, and this character has what is probably the worst non-tether recovery in the game. This character has no form of safe priority or mobility mixup offstage, and his lack of vertical distance means he is ALWAYS in range to be punished offstage. Bowser prides a lot on his out of shield game, which becomes not so good once you learn that you can space on his shield in such a way that his Up-B will not hit you. He is also heavily crippled by projectile camping and juggle traps.

Klaw is good, it's a grab priority in the air, the only other attacks having that are Wario's bite, ganon's side B, and yoshi's egg lay. Up B isn't his only OoS option and his Fair is pretty good IIRC.

Yoshi: Yoshi doesn't have any real approach, but instead has good camping. Or something that resembles good camping. Egg tosses are easily powershielded, and he can't really force you to retreat, and his pivot grab shenanigans are only good if you don't know how to approach past them. His punishable recovery, EXTREMELY low KO power and bad KO application in general, and his inability to really threaten you with anything makes this character horrible, and suffering from a 17 frame shield drop AND shieldgrab makes once you hit his shield, he can't do anything if you know what you're doing.

Yoshi I might give you but remember that he's a lot trickier when he approaches thanks to egg lay.

Ike is COMPLETE garbage that can't do anything. His F-air is powershieldable on reaction. His Jabs can be shieldgrabbed at any range if he hits your shield and you know the timing. This character really can't reaslitically edgeguard or juggle you because he's slow and laggy. He's the only character who can't do two aerials in a fullhop. This is a predictable, limited, and horrible character with next to no favorable matchups. He actually goes about neutral with Ganondorf, THE worst character in the game.

Ike has great range and great KO ability but as with yoshi, I'll give this one to you.

Captain Falcon is also garbage. His low priority makes his approach predictable and counterable, and this character really can't do anything that will kill you at respectable percents if you play conservatively. Bad shieldgrab range also sucks for this character, and a horrible recovery also cripples this character.

Jiggs has poor priority as well, make sure to emphasize her weaknesses instead of just the other low tiers, I've seen people do this so many times.

Zelda is also complete garbage that can't do anything. She can only attempt to wall with tilts, Smashes, and Din's Fire, all of which are avoidable on reaction AND punishable with intelligent spacing and zoning. Her recovery is also bad and punishable, and she has no approach.

Zelda is good at killing, which is why everyone uses sheik instead and zelda to land the KO. Alone, she's garbs.

Link really can't kill you very easily at all. His KO power is unexpectedly low outside of like D-air and 2nd hit of D-smash. He gets juggled easily, sucks when you pressure him, and gets gimped by anyone easily especiall

Link I'll give you.

Ganondorf is Ganondorf. No other character in this game can claim to be unable to do anything to spotdodge on reaction. Getting gimped, **** trapped/comboed, and having horrible grabs at this point are overkill.

Ganon I'll give you

Jiggs has a good recovery and she's good at camping, when she has the lead. Other than recovery and grab game, she's pretty much horrendous at anything else (assuming you don't have the lead and therefore can't camp unless you want to lose).

 

[Deleted member]

Lol A2zomg why dont u go and like use jigglypuff in tournaments and beat someone decent instead of just claiming that jigglypuff is better than all of these characters when nobody is really proving it

When someone like FOW beats ranked players with ness, mainly abusing ness' fair, and u say that ness' foward air is annoying at best...i just dont get it. Ness is also very good at getting the kill when opponents are not at kill percents, with his dair, and he actually has some good priority.
Yoshi actually has bad camping (except ledge camping) and has a great approach because of his back air and egg lay mixups. Bair>spotdodge, egg lay>shield. He can actually combo a lot of characters, and kills much more reliably than jiggs. Yoshi has actual combos (like things that actually follow up into other moves), and can punish reads very well.

When i hear someone say rollout is good, i die on the inside.

I dont know how you can like believe what you are saying. Ike is complete garbage? Tell that to san and such.

I dont like typing stupid things like this out but this is rediculous.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Link really can't kill you very easily at all. His KO power is unexpectedly low outside of like D-air and 2nd hit of D-smash. He gets juggled easily, sucks when you pressure him, and gets gimped by anyone easily especially if he doesn't DI well.

You clearly don't know why Link is bad even though many Link have corrected you on why. You keep citing his KO power which is a laughable reason.

Is she better than Link, most likely, but it doesn't excuse your poor reason that clearly shows you don't know Link at all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol A2zomg why dont u go and like use jigglypuff in tournaments and beat someone decent instead of just claiming that jigglypuff is better than all of these characters when nobody is really proving it

When someone like FOW beats ranked players with ness, mainly abusing ness' fair, and u say that ness' foward air is annoying at best...i just dont get it. Ness is also very good at getting the kill when opponents are not at kill percents, with his dair, and he actually has some good priority.
Yoshi actually has bad camping (except ledge camping) and has a great approach because of his back air and egg lay mixups. Bair>spotdodge, egg lay>shield. He can actually combo a lot of characters, and kills much more reliably than jiggs. Yoshi has actual combos (like things that actually follow up into other moves), and can punish reads very well.

When i hear someone say rollout is good, i die on the inside.

I dont know how you can like believe what you are saying. Ike is complete garbage? Tell that to san and such.

I dont like typing stupid things like this out but this is rediculous.

Instead of being unhelpful and saying that I'm wrong, you could actually try to counter my arguments.

Before you give me the argument that "oh but san and kirk are amazing Ikes!" Big deal. Ike is overrepresented and overrated garbage. He thrives in an environment where 95% of players suck (yes, 95% of Brawl players suck, and even the pros for this game are NOT very competent in general. The current metagame is drastically behind what we actually know what can be done with this game).

I don't care that FOW beat Tyrant or some other player who simply doesn't know the matchup. Ness is horrible. He is not fast, his mobility is really not that great, and he has the worst range in the game. His zoning options are terrible, and he realistically can't get you to kill percents easily if you know how he works. His F-air is OK, but loses damage against those less committed and better spacing options that almost everyone has in this game.

Yoshi's approach is bad. He has horrible commitment on it, and it's not safe at all, and he loses in terms of damage against people who know good spacing and timing. Egg lay is avoidable on reaction and does not have safe ending lag. He does not kill more reliably than Jigglypuff. His setups never lead into kill moves if you know how they work, and his edgeguarding is much more limited than Jigglypuff's.

Jigglypuff is a character who can stay safe and poke reliably, which makes her significantly better than the characters I mentioned, who cannot poke or stay safe reliably.

You clearly don't know why Link is bad even though many Link have corrected you on why. You keep citing his KO power which is a laughable reason.

Is she better than Link, most likely, but it doesn't excuse your poor reason that clearly shows you don't know Link at all.

And it's been proven multiple times that his KO percents are bad.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And it's been proven multiple times that his KO percents are bad.

You mean your you can live til 180% BS, multiple Link mains and people who regularly face Link mains all disagree with you.

Are you going to tell me 50+ people are wrong who main and face Link regularly?

 

[A2ZOMG]

You mean your you can live til 180% BS, multiple Link mains and people who regularly face Link mains all disagree with you.

Are you going to tell me 50+ people are wrong who main and face Link regularly?

Why do you even insist on that stuff? The point is Link can't reliably kill you before 140%. His only two moves that can do that are D-air or 2nd hit of D-smash basically, the former which has a very situational hitbox and is unsafe, and the latter which just is completely unreliable. Since he gets destroyed quickly offstage and doesn't kill you back quickly, that's why he sucks. He's Olimar without the insane power and a worse grab game.

 

[B!squick]

Is it just in your nature to make as many people as possible hate you, A2ZOMG, or what?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is it just in your nature to make as many people as possible hate you, A2ZOMG, or what?

It's your loss if you hate me. I'm way ahead of almost everyone in actually understanding the current metagame and how characters work, and I do a lot of helpful things like give video critique, matchup advice, explanation on how to do things, etc.

 

[B!squick]

I never said I did. I just happened by and noticed yet another group of people that didn't agree with the things you were saying. I only wondered if it was your goal.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My goal is to accurately describe the metagame and how characters work to everyone. In the process, the intent is that accurate information will allow others to learn and improve so that what we know can be done gets properly represented.

A lot of people simply don't know what they're talking about and have bad observation.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why do you even insist on that stuff? The point is Link can't reliably kill you before 140%. His only two moves that can do that are D-air or 2nd hit of D-smash basically, the former which has a very situational hitbox and is unsafe, and the latter which just is completely unreliable. Since he gets destroyed quickly offstage and doesn't kill you back quickly, that's why he sucks. He's Olimar without the insane power and a worse grab game.

I insist because you don't drop this thought that Link's KO power is crap.

Fsmash, Utilt, Dair, Dsmash, and at higher % Usmash. Link sucks because his recovery is among the worst in the game and his moves have slow start-up and ending lag. If you mean he has trouble doing it safely, them that is a different story, but to say he can't kill is laughable.

My goal is to accurately describe the metagame and how characters work to everyone. In the process, the intent is that accurate information will allow others to learn and improve so that what we know can be done gets properly represented.

A lot of people simply don't know what they're talking about and have bad observation.

Yes because multiple people with more experience with this character all disagreeing with you means nothing.

 

[Noobicidal]

This thread is oddly amusing to me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fsmash, Utilt, Dair, Dsmash, and at higher % Usmash. Link sucks because his recovery is among the worst in the game and his moves have slow start-up and ending lag. If you mean he has trouble doing it safely, them that is a different story, but to say he can't kill is laughable.

F-smash, U-tilt, and U-smash don't kill very early. D-air is not safe and has a situational hitbox, and D-smash only really kills early on the second hit. Discounting the last two that I mentioned, he's not easily killing you before 140%. Virtually every character has their share of gimmicks that can kill early, but Link is outclassed at actually getting a consistent kill at respectable percents.

He has alright zoning but doesn't destroy anyone quickly enough to make up for his bad recovery and poor options for dealing with pressure.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

F-smash, U-tilt, and U-smash don't kill very early

Fsmash kills early, Utilt is less, and Usmash being the weakest.

D-air is not safe and has a situational hitbox, and D-smash only really kills early on the second hit. Discounting the last two that I mentioned, he's not easily killing you before 140%. Virtually every character has their share of gimmicks that can kill early, but Link is outclassed at actually getting a consistent kill at respectable percents.

Dair's hitbox isn't situational, it's plain blakc and white, the area around the sword. Dsmash will hit with the second hit if you catch some one rolling behind you or you used your boomerang to get a double hit. The first is better for the sheer fact it comes out on frame 9 compared to the second hits frame 20.

Valden's even told you wrong about KO%, he even admitted that he rarely lives past 130% with Bucket braking. The speed of his moves is an issue, but to say he can't kill is wrong.

He has alright zoning but doesn't destroy anyone quickly enough to make up for his bad recovery and poor options for dealing with pressure.

This is the only thing you have said thus far that is close to correct. He has good zoning, Zair, projectiles, etc. But his recovery and his pressure problems are what hold him back.

 

[12345678910]

My goal is to accurately describe the metagame and how characters work to everyone. In the process, the intent is that accurate information will allow others to learn and improve so that what we know can be done gets properly represented.

A lot of people simply don't know what they're talking about and have bad observation.

You're not accurately describing the metagame with all those "x move is PS'able and punish with y move" when it's not so simple. You could just say you could PS every move on reaction in the game except those frame 1 jabs at top level play.Don't know if that's your whole "I'm ahead of everyone" idea Also you could prove some of this with real matches where you consistently PS all those moves.

On-Topic: Rollout is bad generally. I guess you could use it after applying shield pressure and eating away some shield so that when you use rollout...it'll hit. If only jigglypuff's weight wasn't so bad. All her other characteristics are solid, but it really hurts to live 20-30% or so less than the rest of the cast.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Fsmash Doesnt Kill Early If The Other Person Has Any Grasp On The Concept Of Di.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fsmash kills early, Utilt is less, and Usmash being the weakest.

You obviously do not know KO percents. Link's F-smash is one of the weakest F-smashes in this game. Killing most characters at around 120% with no/bad DI when FRESH is not very impressive. And they're going to survive well past that with good DI or if you rely on it for outspacing approaches.

Dair's hitbox isn't situational, it's plain blakc and white, the area around the sword. Dsmash will hit with the second hit if you catch some one rolling behind you or you used your boomerang to get a double hit. The first is better for the sheer fact it comes out on frame 9 compared to the second hits frame 20.

D-air is basically inside Link's body and a bit below him and doesn't reach anywhere horizontally. That is horrible for application onstage, since you have to go out of your way to be above someone for it to hit, which is not a fun task for a slow character. Good players don't roll to do crossovers and the boomerang setup is only viable if Link ever gets a shieldbreak.

You're not accurately describing the metagame with all those "x move is PS'able and punish with y move" when it's not so simple. You could just say you could PS every move on reaction in the game except those frame 1 jabs at top level play.Don't know if that's your whole "I'm ahead of everyone" idea Also you could prove some of this with real matches where you consistently PS all those moves.

It is much simpler than most players will admit. The average player needs to step it up, since frankly, the average player is just horrible at doing basic things like zoning, vertical spacing, establishing good traps, edgeguarding/recovering correctly, not making technical errors, etc. The average player for MELEE makes fewer average technical errors than the average player for Brawl keep in mind.

As for powershielding something like Ike's F-air, seriously. I know at least two well-known players who do agree that it's easy to do.

On-Topic: Rollout is bad generally. I guess you could use it after applying shield pressure and eating away some shield so that when you use rollout...it'll hit. If only jigglypuff's weight wasn't so bad. All her other characteristics are solid, but it really hurts to live 20-30% or so less than the rest of the cast.

Keep in mind I never said this move was necessarily good. It's just not nearly as horrible as people on this board say it is. It's fundamentally a safe kill move that can only be consistently punished with projectiles. It's far from useless, and as a risk/reward gamble, it's very good.