Is it possible to not have secondaries?

[JustTheTipperR]

Sup,

Do you think its possible to not have secondaries? It seems like, especially for a non-competitive stand point, that every character in the game has those matchups that just seemed so skewed that you have to switch to a secondary to counter it. I main Mario and obviously struggle against characters with good range. This is when I switch to Ness for that strong horizontal threat in the air and PK fire to punish landings from a distance. If I only played as Mario then I just wouldn't know what to do against some people, like good swordsmen.

From a competitive standpoint, you're seeing more top level players having DK's or Bowsers to counter some matchups. Even Ally is talking about picking up Diddy as a secondary since Mario just isn't cutting it anymore. Just look at MKLeo, dude plays like 5 characters competitively. So I'm wondering if its even possible to play as just one character. What are your thoughts?

 

[KirinKQP]

A secondary is definitely helpful, as at high levels of play, even though you may have a lot of experience with a certain matchup (Let's say Diddy) it is still difficult. Not to mention, playing really good Diddy Kongs are even worse, so getting a secondary to go against Diddy is worth it, as you automatically have a better time in the matchup. They are, however, not really needed but in Sm4sh and any character used by someone can beat another character is played right.

TL;DR: They're helpful but not really needed if you don't mind certain matchups.

 

[MercuryPenny]

it's possible but many would ask themselves if it's really worth the time and agony of becoming a god at those matchups and say "no"

 

[MarioManTAW]

Let's see, of the PGR top 50, who has/has not used secondaries in PGR events this season.

ZeRo (mains , played vs Dabuz at ARMS Saga)
MKLeo (quad mains )
Nairo (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Dabuz (mains , has used vs Mr. E at DreamHack Atlanta and Tweek at MKLeo Saga)
Ally (mains , has used vs Salem and MKLeo at Shine)
Larry Lurr (mains , has used on multiple occasions and vs ESAM at Low Tier City)
CaptainZack (mains , has used vs MKLeo at Shine)
komorikiri (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Mr. R (mains , has used vs Larry Lurr at GTX)
Abadango (dual mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Salem (mains , has used vs Mistake at SCR Saga)
Tweek (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
VoiD (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Marss (mains )
Fatality (mains )
KEN (mains , has used in one game at Dubai Dojo)
Ranai (mains , has used vs Tweek at ARMS Saga)
ESAM (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Kirihara (mains )
Zinoto (mains , has used in one game vs ZeRo at The Big House)
ANTi (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Locus (mains )
9B (mains )
Samsora (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Elegant (mains )
Tsu (mains )
Kameme (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
falln (mains )
MVD (mains )
Mr. E (dual mains )
6WX (mains )
T (mains , has used briefly at Dubai Dojo)
Shuton (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Raito (mains )
Earth (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
HIKARU (mains )
Ned (mains , has used in one game at Showdown: Battle Royale)
Rich Brown (mains )
Myran (mains )
Manny (mains )
ScAtt (mains )
NAKAT (tri mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Nietono (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Javi (dual mains )
AC (mains )
WaDi (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Edge (mains , has used vs Ron at Sumabato 20)
JK (mains )
Choco (mains )
FOW (mains )

So of the 50 PGR players, we have 20 solo mains and 6 with only brief counterpicks, so roughly half of the PGR. I'd say that it's definitely possible to do well with just one character, but may vary based on which character you choose. For reference, the characters successfully solo mained are .

 

[JustTheTipperR]

Let's see, of the PGR top 50, who has/has not used secondaries in PGR events this season.

ZeRo (mains , played vs Dabuz at ARMS Saga)
MKLeo (quad mains )
Nairo (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Dabuz (mains , has used vs Mr. E at DreamHack Atlanta and Tweek at MKLeo Saga)
Ally (mains , has used vs Salem and MKLeo at Shine)
Larry Lurr (mains , has used on multiple occasions and vs ESAM at Low Tier City)
CaptainZack (mains , has used vs MKLeo at Shine)
komorikiri (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Mr. R (mains , has used vs Larry Lurr at GTX)
Abadango (dual mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Salem (mains , has used vs Mistake at SCR Saga)
Tweek (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
VoiD (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Marss (mains )
Fatality (mains )
KEN (mains , has used in one game at Dubai Dojo)
Ranai (mains , has used vs Tweek at ARMS Saga)
ESAM (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Kirihara (mains )
Zinoto (mains , has used in one game vs ZeRo at The Big House)
ANTi (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Locus (mains )
9B (mains )
Samsora (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Elegant (mains )
Tsu (mains )
Kameme (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
falln (mains )
MVD (mains )
Mr. E (dual mains )
6WX (mains )
T (mains , has used briefly at Dubai Dojo)
Shuton (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Raito (mains )
Earth (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
HIKARU (mains )
Ned (mains , has used in one game at Showdown: Battle Royale)
Rich Brown (mains )
Myran (mains )
Manny (mains )
ScAtt (mains )
NAKAT (tri mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Nietono (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Javi (dual mains )
AC (mains )
WaDi (mains , has used on multiple occasions)
Edge (mains , has used vs Ron at Sumabato 20)
JK (mains )
Choco (mains )
FOW (mains )

So of the 50 PGR players, we have 20 solo mains and 6 with only brief counterpicks, so roughly half of the PGR. I'd say that it's definitely possible to do well with just one character, but may vary based on which character you choose. For reference, the characters successfully solo mained are .

Yeah and just look at the top chunk of that list. The Top 10 have a really solid foundation with one or two characters and have one or two extras for certain match ups.

 

[DartMonkey]

It's possible but you may get frustrated when players choose certain characters that you know you don't match up well against, and it can affect your performance mentally.

As a Dark Pit player I hate certain matchups, especially Bayo. So I have a sub-par Lucina that I'll use if I'm feeling hopeless against a Bayo. It needs a lot of work, so I'm the last person to ask about needing secondaries, but character switches are a good idea if you're getting wrecked in a set.

 

[Lavani]

It's certainly possible. Some people will stick to one character and learn their bad matchups. Some people will play multiple characters, even if at least one of them doesn't have character matchup issues, either because they like all of them (see: MKLeo playing all the sword characters), because they like the way the other characters deal with certain playstyles (DK/Bowser punish aggression hard with their pivot grabs and throw combos and are, relatively speaking, easy to learn), because they switched mains but are still good with their previous characters (Komorikiri, Abadango, etc), or just as a way to change things up.

I'd argue the former's the better way to go about things anyway. Trying to counterpick a dedicated character main with a pocket character isn't necessarily going to work out well, as the dedicated main's going to be more experienced in both the matchup and handling of their character.

tl;dr ya

 

[MarioManTAW]

As a Dark Pit player I hate certain matchups, especially Bayo.

That's interesting, especially considering that from what I've seen, Bayo is one of the few matchups (if not the only matchup) in which Earth opts to use Dark Pit over Pit. https://ssbworld.com/players/437/earth/dark-pit
In fact, even Kameme used Dark Pit vs CaptainZack at Civil War when his Mega Man and Sheik weren't working.

 

[DartMonkey]

That's interesting, especially considering that from what I've seen, Bayo is one of the few matchups (if not the only matchup) in which Earth opts to use Dark Pit over Pit. https://ssbworld.com/players/437/earth/dark-pit
In fact, even Kameme used Dark Pit vs CaptainZack at Civil War when his Mega Man and Sheik weren't working.

Well, there isn't much of a difference between the 2 Pits but I guess they prefer the buffed side B of Dark Pit. In any case, I think the reason people may like the Bayo MU may be because Pit/Dark Pit's neutral is way better than Bayo's, so if you keep winning neutral battles you'll be good. However I feel like I'll win neutral battles over and over just for my opponent to land 1 witch time, and I'll lose a game I clearly should have won.

Also, I've seen Earth's Pit be absolutely hopeless against Salem to the point where he had to switch to Corrin.

I've found Lucina to just be better in the matchup, and way easier to win. I pretty much only practice my Lucina for that matchup.

 

[JagerCrush]

Most people are solo mains. The reasons you see so many dual and tri-mains is bc it becomes easier at the highest levels of game play bc of how efficient top level players are in favorable matchups. Plus these pros start to lose consistently to the same players or characters so eventually they need to try something new if they want to get better. Since some characters can be picked up relatively easily it makes it a more viable option. Why grind out a bad match-up when you can grind out a good match-up?
In Melee most people are solo mains bc it takes a lot of time to get good with a character and you spread yourself a bit thin using multiple characters. But when you get to the top echelon of players in the world you see more secondaries. It's bc they run into the same players/characters and lose to them continuously. Since Sm4sh has so many more characters that means there will be more unfavorable match-ups for any given character and it is just that much more reason to use secondaries.

 

[KHaOs11]

Sup,

Do you think its possible to not have secondaries? It seems like, especially for a non-competitive stand point, that every character in the game has those matchups that just seemed so skewed that you have to switch to a secondary to counter it. I main Mario and obviously struggle against characters with good range. This is when I switch to Ness for that strong horizontal threat in the air and PK fire to punish landings from a distance. If I only played as Mario then I just wouldn't know what to do against some people, like good swordsmen.

From a competitive standpoint, you're seeing more top level players having DK's or Bowsers to counter some matchups. Even Ally is talking about picking up Diddy as a secondary since Mario just isn't cutting it anymore. Just look at MKLeo, dude plays like 5 characters competitively. So I'm wondering if its even possible to play as just one character. What are your thoughts?

It is definitely possible. Some people are just fine dealing with matchups that are bad for their character (Me not one of them) some people also solo main because they don't find any other characters fun to play or their character loyalty is through the roof. I'm not shaming you for not solo maining Mario, but he is definitely a character that can be solo mained.

 

[MercuryPenny]

I'm not shaming you for not solo maining Mario, but he is definitely a character that can be solo mained.

in a world where bayonetta, rosaluma and sonic don't exist, maybe

 

[Yonder]

Sure you can solo main. I don't think it's ideal in smash 4 though. I see MKLeo as the best player atm, despite not being PGR 1. He uses enough characters to cover all bad matchups, it seems to be very successful. Whips out the Cloud generally, but uses MK for Diddy, Marth for Bayo...the results are there. Switching to a secondary definitely throws your opponents downloading skills off on the specific character. Every top tier character has one or two less than ideal MUs. A secondary from any tier should suffice to cover them, as long as they fare better/user is more comfortable with them.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Absolutely possible. It's just a matter of you being good enough to execute your gameplans in those MUs.

And for you not knowing how to fight different MUs, that's when you use a different character for extensive amounts of time to gain new ideas for Mario.

 

[KHaOs11]

in a world where bayonetta, rosaluma and sonic don't exist, maybe

Those matchups are not impossible. Rosa is even or Mario's favor, Bayo is just slight losing, and Sonic, although being his worst matchup, isn't impossible imo. Mario has the tools to do almost if not anything, that is why he can win against any character regardless of the matchup. I'm a Mario main myself, take it from me.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Rosa is even or Mario's favor, Bayo is just slight losing, and Sonic, although being his worst matchup, isn't impossible imo.

yeah i couldn't disagree more. rosaluma naturally makes any character reliant on grabs suffer, because just pressing a covers so much space on the ground and even if you grab her, luma can just up air you and put you in disadvantage. even ignoring that, all of mario's options to deal with luma are less that favorable because most of them are hilariously easy to punish. back throw isn't, but it's also mario's kill throw, which you don't want to stale because there's a fairly high chance you're not going to kill any other way, on top of requiring that you get a grab on rosalina while luma is still there. rosalina is still a pretty good character without luma too, and can just camp until luma comes back, so it's not like eliminating luma is an instant win condition either.

bayonetta destroys mario for pretty much all the reasons sonic destroys him and then some. hitboxes that are incredibly hard for him to contest, ridiculous burst mobility, one of the best out of shield options in the game, edgeguards him for free, unreasonably hard to edgeguard in return, super high damage output, AND benefits a lot from defensive play. pretty much the only argument i've seen for this matchup being anything easier than -2 is "muh grab" and a vague "well he has the tools to deal with her" which is ridiculous.

and yeah, it's not impossible, but that's irrelevant. no matchup in the game is impossible but most characters are solomain unviable for a reason, and i think it's reasonable to say even a handful of virtually unplayable matchups is grounds to call a character solomain unviable.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

yeah i couldn't disagree more. rosaluma naturally makes any character reliant on grabs suffer, because just pressing a covers so much space on the ground and even if you grab her, luma can just up air you and put you in disadvantage. even ignoring that, all of mario's options to deal with luma are less that favorable because most of them are hilariously easy to punish. back throw isn't, but it's also mario's kill throw, which you don't want to stale because there's a fairly high chance you're not going to kill any other way, on top of requiring that you get a grab on rosalina while luma is still there. rosalina is still a pretty good character without luma too, and can just camp until luma comes back, so it's not like eliminating luma is an instant win condition either.

bayonetta destroys mario for pretty much all the reasons sonic destroys him and then some. hitboxes that are incredibly hard for him to contest, ridiculous burst mobility, one of the best out of shield options in the game, edgeguards him for free, unreasonably hard to edgeguard in return, super high damage output, AND benefits a lot from defensive play. pretty much the only argument i've seen for this matchup being anything easier than -2 is "muh grab" and a vague "well he has the tools to deal with her" which is ridiculous.

and yeah, it's not impossible, but that's irrelevant. no matchup in the game is impossible but most characters are solomain unviable for a reason, and i think it's reasonable to say even a handful of virtually unplayable matchups is grounds to call a character solomain unviable.

most characters are solo main "unviable" because their players don't feeling like struggling that hard, or can't see a answer to *insert option* (doesn't mean there isn't one; they just can't see it). I know there are characters who really can't do much, but I know there's a lot more solo viable characters than what we think.

even the virtually impossible MUs could be won; it would just depend on the godlike execution of the player.

I don't know what Mario could do (not a Mario player), but I know those two MUs being discussed is doable. Just takes some creativity and considerable execution.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I understand choosing another character to help you perform more adequately; it's the logical and pragmatic thing to do.

Personally, solo maining is admirable-definitely puts hair on the chest. It's not easy I can imagine, so they get my respect.

But, nonetheless, money and reputation are on the line and you're supposed to play to win.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's a bit harder to do it but it depends on the player and what works for you.

 

[Dawn111]

Yes, it's definitely possible. Not having a secondary can help you focus on your main better, because improving on one main can help you improve faster than improving on two characters, since learning multiple characters well obviously take alot of play time. Generally speaking, its better to be excellent with one character than to be just good with multiple characters. Granted, picking up secondaries is actually still very useful, because you might find it easier to play your secondary over your main character on certain matchups. Some people have easier time sticking with their main character, while others have wanted to pick up their secondaries.

 

[A Scrub]

it's possible but many would ask themselves if it's really worth the time and agony of becoming a god at those matchups and say "no"

As a Cloud main, I am grateful for a lack of bad matchups.

 

[MercuryPenny]

As a Cloud main, I am grateful for a lack of bad matchups.

https://youtu.be/wFPXr3kW7lc?t=9m7s

 

[Crystanium]

As many have said it's possible. It's just not practical. Of course, focusing on a single character helps you develop a form to deal with your opponents.

 

[A Scrub]

https://youtu.be/wFPXr3kW7lc?t=9m7s

Seems accurate among the Smash community LOL

 

[JustTheTipperR]

Those matchups are not impossible. Rosa is even or Mario's favor, Bayo is just slight losing, and Sonic, although being his worst matchup, isn't impossible imo. Mario has the tools to do almost if not anything, that is why he can win against any character regardless of the matchup. I'm a Mario main myself, take it from me.

I probably use Mario 75% of the time and Ness 25% of the time (usually for really skilled swordsmen). I agree that he can be solo mained since he can beat any character as long as he can get inside their bubble. It’s just that getting up close to certain characters is a chore and a half, but not impossible.

 

[TOVL]

It's only possible if you play Cloud or Bayonetta. No exceptions.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's only possible if you play Cloud or Bayonetta. No exceptions.

This flat out goes against results.

Besides, the game is too balanced for that. And he won’t be fighting ZeRos and Salems all the time.

 

[A Scrub]

I

Not to derail the topic but at 7:14 your comment is brought up.


https://youtu.be/UShjlGI7DlQ

#offtopic #sorry

 

[Crosstails20]

It definitely possible, but you will have trouble dealing with certain matchups in general due you to not having a counter pick.

 

[YT_PyroNinja]

Look at it this way, say you 100 hours to play smash. If you focus on 1 character you get 100 hours on that character, however with two characters, it splits to 50-50. That may be good too because even though you have less time on that character, you still have more time on them then someone who doesnt play them at all

 

[Laken64]

Marss (mains )

Small nitpick but Marss also has a which he used against Cosmos at the big house.

 

[Freduardo]

Not only is it possible, it’s really annoying to the people you play friendly matches with.

Because the guy who plays his main and only plays his main doesn’t want you to play secondaries or even characters you’re just playing because they exist and it’s a friendly round of smash. And will whine about you not bringing your real challenge (whether you win or lose).

It’s very possible. And in my experience limiting, makes you a worse player in both ability to handle different opponents as well as just being a fun sparring partner.

 

[Locuan]

Because the guy who plays his main and only plays his main doesn’t want you to play secondaries or even characters you’re just playing because they exist and it’s a friendly round of smash.

That's just a person by person experience. Some people might react like that but others will not.

Let's use myself as an example, in Sm4sh I play a bunch of characters either seriously or not. Particularly because I enjoy playing as different characters. Even when I went to tournaments. Some people did want me to play my main from time to time, and I did, but they also did not mind if I played secondaries. This helps them with those match-ups as well. So in essence they can learn from every experience.

On the flip side, in Blazblue Central Fiction I only play one character, my main. I don't find any other nearly as fun. When opponents play other characters that are not their mains, I don't view it as a negative experience. But rather time to practice different setups on different characters. This also helps me get used to different match-ups as well.

And in my experience limiting, makes you a worse player in both ability to handle different opponents as well as just being a fun sparring partner.

In the specific scenario you are stating, that is definitely the case. It might take some time for them to view it differently.

To answer the original question by OP. First and foremost I believe that the first key goal with the game is to have fun. After that you would ask yourself a couple of questions:

• Do I want to play casually or competitive?
• If competitive, do I want to be the best or do I want to be the best at a specific character?
• What play style do I enjoy, can it be complemented by other characters?
• Does my chosen character have big faults on key match-ups?

The list goes on. But it should give you a better picture on choosing to play a secondary or not. Some characters don't require you to have a secondary, so you could just main one. Some characters might benefit from you having a secondary, but you just don't find that fun etc so you stick to one. There's various possibilities on the choice.

 

[TimG57867]

It's possible but it depends on the character in question and just how serious you are about the game. If you just play on For Glory or a really small local then it's not that necessary. But if you're trying to aim for the top of Anthers or are trying to become a competitive threat, having a potent secondary can help a lot. This game has more characters and thus more matchups than any other Smash and many of them are constantly evolving and vary wildly depending on the playstyle. You can pour all the time you can into one character you want, but in many cases you just can't cover everything and everyone with just one character. And I am not just talking about matchups. Some players and playstyles can just counter the way you use your main. But a potent secondary can let you play the way you like while getting around them.

Of course you need to be willing to put the time to understand their matchups and gameplan because the players you often intend to use them against will be use to playing against that character. If your counter can easily be exposed, you just threw away a game you were better off using your main in. I can say that from experience.

I'll say this. Unless you plan to pick up a pocket character that has like a +2 or +3 matchup on 1 or 2 characters your main loathes like pocketing a to bop that one pesky in your scene that roadblocks your , then it's best to avoid comaining a character unless it's one you feel can help you in a large variety of situations, compliments your main, and is one you're willing to put in the time to make on par with your main. It's can be tough, but as top players are lately showing, if you pull off it can REALLY pay off.

 

[DCellZ]

As an Ike main, oddly enough I feel somewhat comfortable with Ike's bad MU's. The thing is, I can deal with Shieks and Bayos, but Mario makes me want to end myself.

 

[KHaOs11]

yeah i couldn't disagree more. rosaluma naturally makes any character reliant on grabs suffer, because just pressing a covers so much space on the ground and even if you grab her, luma can just up air you and put you in disadvantage. even ignoring that, all of mario's options to deal with luma are less that favorable because most of them are hilariously easy to punish. back throw isn't, but it's also mario's kill throw, which you don't want to stale because there's a fairly high chance you're not going to kill any other way, on top of requiring that you get a grab on rosalina while luma is still there. rosalina is still a pretty good character without luma too, and can just camp until luma comes back, so it's not like eliminating luma is an instant win condition either.

bayonetta destroys mario for pretty much all the reasons sonic destroys him and then some. hitboxes that are incredibly hard for him to contest, ridiculous burst mobility, one of the best out of shield options in the game, edgeguards him for free, unreasonably hard to edgeguard in return, super high damage output, AND benefits a lot from defensive play. pretty much the only argument i've seen for this matchup being anything easier than -2 is "muh grab" and a vague "well he has the tools to deal with her" which is ridiculous.

and yeah, it's not impossible, but that's irrelevant. no matchup in the game is impossible but most characters are solomain unviable for a reason, and i think it's reasonable to say even a handful of virtually unplayable matchups is grounds to call a character solomain unviable.

 

[A Scrub]

As an Ike main, oddly enough I feel somewhat comfortable with Ike's bad MU's. The thing is, I can deal with Shieks and Bayos, but Mario makes me want to end myself.

The nice thing in the Sheik mu is once Ike gets advantage he does huge damage to Shiek, and can KO at stupid percents once he has rage.

Similar idea with Bayo, especially with one of her weakness' is a good grab game, coupled with Ike's drop down > counter on her recovery.

Ike has some bad MU's, but I don't think he has any hard counters.