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is it posible to change lucina's moveset in a patch?

gumx

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as we all know lucina will most likely be behind marth in "tier lists" and less picked character in tourneys due to lack of tipper. so, if we could have a patch to change lucina to a semi semi semi clone she could rise in the "tier list" in no time. never have played FE awakening, but knowing a bit about it lucina could have been any type of character because based on who chrom marries lucina's stats/moves changes. so lucina actually could be any character from FE. knowing that devs most likely won't make new moves for her, but can't they just switch it?

Specials:
Up B: aether (from ike)
Down B: counter (same)
Side B: dancing blade (marth)
Neutral B: thunder tome (robin)

Smashes:
Up smash (ikes)
Down smash (robin)
Forward smash (marths)

Tilts:
Up tilt (marth)
Down tilt (ike)
Side tilt (robin)

Aerials:
Up air: (robin)
Down air: (marth)
Forward air: (ike)
Neutral air: (marth)

Jab (marth)

Grabs
Up throw: (ike)
Down throw: (robin)
Forward throw: (ike)
Back throw: (robin)
Pummel: (marth)

with this if marth ike or robin gets a buff lucina gets a buff. if any of them gets a nerf lucina will get it too. but this could change her status making her better imo.

sorry if this is the wrong place to post this (:
 
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LIQUID12A

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You can't change an already established moveset. That's better suited to an entirely new character altogether, and Lucina is going to stay the way she is in this game, possible damage changes in patches aside.
 

ぱみゅ

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I only with she had Brawl Marth's Fair (even if her blade gets no Tipper Hitbox)
 

aBlackCat

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lmao this is so stupid...

you cant just stack moves on a character like she's Seth.. Those moves would be awful together, effectively bringing her to G - please remove waste of data- tier.

And no she cant be any character, lucina is avatar + chrom, chrom trains her. She could be chrom or female-marth.
 
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gumx

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I only with she had Brawl Marth's Fair (even if her blade gets no Tipper Hitbox)
that would be a step to differentiate lucina and marth.

lmao this is so stupid...

you cant just stack moves on a character like she's Seth.. Those moves would be awful together, effectively bringing her to G - please remove waste of data- tier.

And no she cant be any character, lucina is avatar + chrom, chrom trains her. She could be chrom or female-marth.
i don't know how to delete it...?
all due respect, but its possible if sakurai allows it. plus this is smash bros where canon doesn't exist not fire emblem. i have played xenoblade before and i don't remember (unless my memory is fading already) that shulk's monado arts doesn't include jump or smash in any way. unless you can count enchant as smash but that only increases damage.

avatar is robin right?

i forgot about grabs. if lucina has robin magical down throw she could have many guaranteed follow ups unlike her current throws where you pretty much have to trap the opponent or predict their move to attack. that would help her game more than damage.

chrom fights like ike. lucina trains to fight like marth. avatar is robin? she could be a salad bowl of FE
 
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RosalinaSGS

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The fact is, changing Lucina in such a way would require nearly as much work as simply creating a new character, and I'm pretty sure we'd rather see another fighter than lucina tweaked (though it would be nice to have her stronger). As Lucina is a clone, it required much less effort to include her than another fighter (In a ratio of about 3:1 IIRC a recent source gaming article), but as a result, her body had to almost be identical to Marth's. As such, although your suggested changes would be nice, it wouldn't happen. And if it did, I, for one, would be disappointed at the waste.
 

gumx

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The fact is, changing Lucina in such a way would require nearly as much work as simply creating a new character, and I'm pretty sure we'd rather see another fighter than lucina tweaked (though it would be nice to have her stronger). As Lucina is a clone, it required much less effort to include her than another fighter (In a ratio of about 3:1 IIRC a recent source gaming article), but as a result, her body had to almost be identical to Marth's. As such, although your suggested changes would be nice, it wouldn't happen. And if it did, I, for one, would be disappointed at the waste.
your right. as much i like using lucina it would be best if she were replaced by someone in FE:fates for their rep. i just hope she returns as an alt of marth.

at your avatar :laugh:
 

Kenith

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The fact is, changing Lucina in such a way would require nearly as much work as simply creating a new character, and I'm pretty sure we'd rather see another fighter than lucina tweaked
Speak for yourself. ;)

I don't think her getting decloned through DLC is feasible, but I think she should get some speed/damage/landing lag buffs and maybe some of the shield stun from Marth so she's actually good.
 

RosalinaSGS

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Speak for yourself. ;)

I don't think her getting decloned through DLC is feasible, but I think she should get some speed/damage/landing lag buffs and maybe some of the shield stun from Marth so she's actually good.
Are you sure? We could have anyone, even, say, Kamui from Fates. And you'd rather just tweak Lucina so she's better? But I'm with you for the buffs.
 

Project_B

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To add to what KenithTheGatherer said, even if a new Fire Emblem character were to be added to appease fans, it's just wrong to leave such a loved character non-viable, especially in a game where all characters are supposed to be balanced; Smash 4 is the only game in the series that actively changes its characters to try to make them all equally potent in both casual and competitive play. As it stands, Lucina is a worse version of Marth, who is already a questionable tournament pick, and in order to win as Lucina, a player needs to really outplay their opponent, and even then it is easy to lose to an inferior player. Lucina doesn't need a completely different moveset, and she doesn't need any giant differences in gameplay, but with her inferior kill power and spacing, she needs better speed, combos, and/or a better recovery. This may not necessarily be the case, but it's just my opinion, and I really think that something to improve her moveset without actually changing the moves is probably the best/easiest option.
 

gumx

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i'm all up for her differentiating her from marth. maybe 4 of the 7 is good then? since marth has slightly more range and heavier? and tipper/sour spot. lucina should get four marth can get the other three so the could differ from each other.

1: more hit stun (is that what it is called?) on DB for 1-3 in all directions (making it easier to connect or do follow ups like f-smash)

2: less end lag for DB both air and ground

3: attacks more safe on shield

4: less end lag on aerials so it is possible for double SH f-air

5: better grabs with higher chance of true combos.

6: easier to land a d-air

7: i saw this somewhere replace shield breaker with dashing assault. (if its possible)

she needs better speed, combos, and/or a better recovery. This may not necessarily be the case, but it's just my opinion, and I really think that something to improve her moveset without actually changing the moves is probably the best/easiest option.
damage and speed wise i think she is pretty good. its just the end lag that really hurts her the most imo.
 
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Project_B

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@ G gumx - maybe, but seeing how Roy should be a clunkier and heavier-hitting character, but is instead very fast and has good frame data and a longer range (IIRC his sweet spot on fSmash covers Lucina's entire fSmash), Lucina, being the smaller character with less range than Marth, should be faster. I do agree though that her lag is her main problem, and I think that I should have mentioned that. After playing Marth in Melee, Brawl, and PM, Marth and Lucina both feel much more clumsy with everything they do. Movement has always been either the most or one of the most important things for a character, and Lucina needs better movement. Whether this movement is being able to do two fAirs in one SH then land and continue attacking, or just having aerials that can be thrown out to be safe on shield and wall out an opponent (aside from nAir which has a pretty awful hitbox size), she needs something else. When I said speed, I should have said movement, but I still think that Lucina should be faster/jump higher/have something to make up for her lesser kill power as compared to most of the other Fire Emblem cast. And a dAir that spikes like in Melee would allow her to get easier kills, maybe having a (much larger than now) sweetspot for a strong spike, but most of the rest should still send people at a downwards angle. And fix the insane lag on it.
 

gumx

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@ G gumx - maybe, but seeing how Roy should be a clunkier and heavier-hitting character, but is instead very fast and has good frame data and a longer range (IIRC his sweet spot on fSmash covers Lucina's entire fSmash), Lucina, being the smaller character with less range than Marth, should be faster. I do agree though that her lag is her main problem, and I think that I should have mentioned that. After playing Marth in Melee, Brawl, and PM, Marth and Lucina both feel much more clumsy with everything they do. Movement has always been either the most or one of the most important things for a character, and Lucina needs better movement. Whether this movement is being able to do two fAirs in one SH then land and continue attacking, or just having aerials that can be thrown out to be safe on shield and wall out an opponent (aside from nAir which has a pretty awful hitbox size), she needs something else. When I said speed, I should have said movement, but I still think that Lucina should be faster/jump higher/have something to make up for her lesser kill power as compared to most of the other Fire Emblem cast. And a dAir that spikes like in Melee would allow her to get easier kills, maybe having a (much larger than now) sweetspot for a strong spike, but most of the rest should still send people at a downwards angle. And fix the insane lag on it.
i think she should be faster movement left and right in the air. but would that means she has to be a fast faller like roy then?

not sure how the d-airs work in melee never played it but it sounds much better than current. i like your idea too angled spike would be devastating outside. i got a strange idea for lucina's d-air though. if lucina's d-air lag is fixed to a point where she can do another of d-air quickly with the help of the second jump then would it work/be better if the non-spike parts of the blade make the opponent get hit upwards like a u-air with very low knockback depending where the sword hit either left or right and able to jump again to aim a d-air or any follow up.
 

RosalinaSGS

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i think she should be faster movement left and right in the air. but would that means she has to be a fast faller like roy then?

not sure how the d-airs work in melee never played it but it sounds much better than current. i like your idea too angled spike would be devastating outside. i got a strange idea for lucina's d-air though. if lucina's d-air lag is fixed to a point where she can do another of d-air quickly with the help of the second jump then would it work/be better if the non-spike parts of the blade make the opponent get hit upwards like a u-air with very low knockback depending where the sword hit either left or right and able to jump again to aim a d-air or any follow up.
Yeah, but then she'd be banned. :D
 

Project_B

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Giving her a better dAir and more aerial mobility wouldn't really make her even close to "too good," especially in a game with characters like Sheik or Post-patch DK--either with amazing neutral and combos or just incredible combos and kill power.

If Lucina could combo off of dAir, that would really improve her gameplay. But it would probably be easier to have her forward air send opponents at a higher trajectory and with more hitstun, so that it could combo into itself and into dAir (like the Ken combo - fAir then jump and dAir spike).

In Melee, Marth's dAir spiked anywhere at the tip, plus, the tipper hitbox out-prioritized the non-tipper. So, in other words, normally with Marth a tipper occurs when an opponent is hit by only the tip of the sword, but with dAir, a tipper occurs as long as the tip strikes the opponent, regardless of whether or not it is only the tip. In the PAL version of Melee, all of this is true, except that instead of a spike, the tip is a meteor smash, and so it sends opponents closer to straight down but can be meteor cancelled (in Smash 4, there is no meteor canceling, and so spike and meteor smash are used interchangeably).

Also, while on the subject of Melee Marth, Marth could actually combo and chain grab off of up throw due to his very large grab range and the large amount of hitstun the was present in Melee. In Brawl, Marth had great grab release combos, including a zero to death on Ness. Now, Marth/Lucina have by far the worst combo throws of the fire emblem cast, an awful kill throw, and really nothing big to reward them for getting a grab.

To sum it all up, better aerials and mobility would improve Lucina's viability, as well as maybe having a combo throw (like how Robin was given one). Lucina needs better movement as compared to Marth and Roy, and some good way to kill, perhaps dAir, that is not fSmash or uSmash.
 

Rebel13

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I always correct people on this, but there is no more hitstun in Melee than in Sm4sh. The difference is in Melee's extremely fast fall speeds and frame data, as well as the fact that the moves tended to do more damage relative to their knockback, with positively affects hitstun.

On the subject of Lucina, I would really like to see her moves do more damage relative to their knockback. It would make her combo game a lot better (more hitstun), especially considering that her sword is shorter and it's harder for her to get the first hit. Frame data probably doesn't need to change a whole lot.
 

gumx

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Yeah, but then she'd be banned. :D
she probably won't be OP like pre-patch diddy. it would make her even more fun to use (:

Giving her a better dAir and more aerial mobility wouldn't really make her even close to "too good," especially in a game with characters like Sheik or Post-patch DK--either with amazing neutral and combos or just incredible combos and kill power.

If Lucina could combo off of dAir, that would really improve her gameplay. But it would probably be easier to have her forward air send opponents at a higher trajectory and with more hitstun, so that it could combo into itself and into dAir (like the Ken combo - fAir then jump and dAir spike).

In Melee, Marth's dAir spiked anywhere at the tip, plus, the tipper hitbox out-prioritized the non-tipper. So, in other words, normally with Marth a tipper occurs when an opponent is hit by only the tip of the sword, but with dAir, a tipper occurs as long as the tip strikes the opponent, regardless of whether or not it is only the tip. In the PAL version of Melee, all of this is true, except that instead of a spike, the tip is a meteor smash, and so it sends opponents closer to straight down but can be meteor cancelled (in Smash 4, there is no meteor canceling, and so spike and meteor smash are used interchangeably).

Also, while on the subject of Melee Marth, Marth could actually combo and chain grab off of up throw due to his very large grab range and the large amount of hitstun the was present in Melee. In Brawl, Marth had great grab release combos, including a zero to death on Ness. Now, Marth/Lucina have by far the worst combo throws of the fire emblem cast, an awful kill throw, and really nothing big to reward them for getting a grab.

To sum it all up, better aerials and mobility would improve Lucina's viability, as well as maybe having a combo throw (like how Robin was given one). Lucina needs better movement as compared to Marth and Roy, and some good way to kill, perhaps dAir, that is not fSmash or uSmash.
marth can have the ken combo. lucina should get something more unique where her f-air goes straight forward so she could have more strings with one jump rather than two. or sorry to ask is the ken combo a true combo or strings?

agreed their throws are terrible hopefully the next patch will patch things up

If we can't even get a character to get a different moveset between GAMES (Ganondorf), don't even think about it between patches.
thanks for the response. so sad though ):

I always correct people on this, but there is no more hitstun in Melee than in Sm4sh. The difference is in Melee's extremely fast fall speeds and frame data, as well as the fact that the moves tended to do more damage relative to their knockback, with positively affects hitstun.

On the subject of Lucina, I would really like to see her moves do more damage relative to their knockback. It would make her combo game a lot better (more hitstun), especially considering that her sword is shorter and it's harder for her to get the first hit. Frame data probably doesn't need to change a whole lot.
oh is that how it is. but her DB is kind of terrible or i am the only one where DB the opponents can DI away. maybe DB should have less knockback then = less damage too?
 
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RosalinaSGS

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she probably won't be OP like pre-patch diddy. it would make her even more fun to use (:



marth can have the ken combo. lucina should get something more unique where her f-air goes straight forward so she could have more strings with one jump rather than two. or sorry to ask is the ken combo a true combo or strings?

agreed their throws are terrible hopefully the next patch will patch things up



thanks for the response. so sad though ):



oh is that how it is. but her DB is kind of terrible or i am the only one where DB the opponents can DI away. maybe DB should have less knockback then = less damage too?
About DB, you're probably using DB wrong. You should tilt to accomadate for their DI, or otherwise they're at too high percents. Usually I can get most hits on.
 

chronoboy

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I know it's a small consolation, but there's actually a pretty good PSA Lucina for PM. She has Marth's old over the head Shield Breaker and sweet spinning neutral air like Chrom's attack from the CG in Awakening.
 

mr medicinal

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keep her moveset the same i think sakurai should give her a mecanic with rhe mask taunt,
when you do the taunt she should keep the mask on and it should give her different weight or speed atributes or something .
for example while she dosnt have the mask on she has reduced recovery frames with less power on her moves, when its on she should have a whole sword tipper with terrible lag on even her jabs .

something to that effect, like walk speed vs arial mobility
or being floaty vs heavy fast faller

or diferent elemtal effects on her dancing blade finishers,
like the last hit in the up variation could be wind that pushes you up,
the last hit of side finisher should be fire that blast you away
the down pokes could have the electical shock effect to keep you locked in place

or just change the hitstun/ startup/knockback on some her moves to change her into a more combo oriented marth thats less about spacing and neutral and more focused on rushdown and strings
 

gumx

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About DB, you're probably using DB wrong. You should tilt to accomadate for their DI, or otherwise they're at too high percents. Usually I can get most hits on.
hmm i guess im doing it wrong. I tend to do DB Neutral, Up, Neutral, Up. maybe im just doing it slow?

I know it's a small consolation, but there's actually a pretty good PSA Lucina for PM. She has Marth's old over the head Shield Breaker and sweet spinning neutral air like Chrom's attack from the CG in Awakening.
lucina is in PM? sounds pretty cool

keep her moveset the same i think sakurai should give her a mecanic with rhe mask taunt,
when you do the taunt she should keep the mask on and it should give her different weight or speed atributes or something .
for example while she dosnt have the mask on she has reduced recovery frames with less power on her moves, when its on she should have a whole sword tipper with terrible lag on even her jabs .

something to that effect, like walk speed vs arial mobility
or being floaty vs heavy fast faller

or diferent elemtal effects on her dancing blade finishers,
like the last hit in the up variation could be wind that pushes you up,
the last hit of side finisher should be fire that blast you away
the down pokes could have the electical shock effect to keep you locked in place

or just change the hitstun/ startup/knockback on some her moves to change her into a more combo oriented marth thats less about spacing and neutral and more focused on rushdown and strings
interesting idea with the mask. i personally wouldn't use it if it means getting more end lag, she already has enough :)

fast falling would b like having a non-sweetspot roy. but, i would try it out. might suck for her recovery?

elemental effects idea sounds good. my DB somehow isn't as good at connecting.

Yes i would pick this last one. i guess make her attacks almost cut in half or make her lighter as a double edge sword effect.
 

mr medicinal

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well to be honest im more interested in her mask switching up her playstyle mid match, im not really commited to what the two styles you switch btween could be though,
maybe maskslees mode could have less knock back for better combos at higher %, while the mask would buff her grabs and kill moves
im thinking somthing similer to shulks monado effects....
like faster run speed and nefed jump height for offence with out the mask
and buffed jump height with heavy weight for defence with the mask on

also i think you may have just thought about more lag with out fully considering the op beuty of a full sword thats completley one tipper hitbox.... it would need to be seriously punishable or be way to godlike
 
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RosalinaSGS

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hmm i guess im doing it wrong. I tend to do DB Neutral, Up, Neutral, Up. maybe im just doing it slow?


lucina is in PM? sounds pretty cool


interesting idea with the mask. i personally wouldn't use it if it means getting more end lag, she already has enough :)

fast falling would b like having a non-sweetspot roy. but, i would try it out. might suck for her recovery?

elemental effects idea sounds good. my DB somehow isn't as good at connecting.

Yes i would pick this last one. i guess make her attacks almost cut in half or make her lighter as a double edge sword effect.
hm... yeah, it's usually best to go for the same inputs after side. e.g. side side down down, (because you can't down on second) or side up up up. Btw, the latter is the most secure.
well to be honest im more interested in her mask switching up her playstyle mid match, im not really commited to what the two styles you switch btween could be though,
maybe maskslees mode could have less knock back for better combos at higher %, while the mask would buff her grabs and kill moves
im thinking somthing similer to shulks monado effects....
like faster run speed and nefed jump height for offence with out the mask
and buffed jump height with heavy weight for defence with the mask on

also i think you may have just thought about more lag with out fully considering the op beuty of a full sword thats completley one tipper hitbox.... it would need to be seriously punishable or be way to godlike
I think you've overestimated the power of the tipper. Other than the smashes, Marth's tipper hitboxes aren't that powerful. I'd say tilts are a fair bit above average, bit his aerials are basically average KB imo.
 

mr medicinal

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well yes tippers arnt that strong, but the abillity to rack up dammege with safe sword swings without the mask, then at ko % switching to whole sord tippeer with mask would be powerful

but again im only realy interesded in her mask changing how she fights mid match,
im sure lucina mains could figure out two differeing playstyles to switch between
 
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RosalinaSGS

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Even just Lucina keeping the mask on, without special buffs, would be awesome.
 

Didier337

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Is it really a bad idea to just make Lucina faster overall? You lose the tipper damage and knock back for better frame data and faster stage coverage.
-Faster walk and run
-Faster Aerial
-Faster Tilts
-Less landing lag
-Fast fall
-Reduce KB on U-tilt,F-throw,D-throw.
-Fix Dancing blade 2 to hit small and light characters
-Fix dancing blade down 4 so frame 3 N-airs,fast fallers, and bowsers can't react once caught in it.
 

ReturningFall

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I still remember when the game first came out and everyone thought lucina was supposed to be faster, safer and more aggressive.

Rather than try and make a big change in a patch, why not just speed her up and make her safer? So a spacing-based non-campy alternative to sheik?
 

gumx

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hm... yeah, it's usually best to go for the same inputs after side. e.g. side side down down, (because you can't down on second) or side up up up. Btw, the latter is the most secure.
hm i wonder why down variation has only 2 not 3? yeah it seems to work better just not against luigi keep kicking my face.

Is it really a bad idea to just make Lucina faster overall? You lose the tipper damage and knock back for better frame data and faster stage coverage.
-Faster walk and run
-Faster Aerial
-Faster Tilts
-Less landing lag
-Fast fall
-Reduce KB on U-tilt,F-throw,D-throw.
-Fix Dancing blade 2 to hit small and light characters
-Fix dancing blade down 4 so frame 3 N-airs,fast fallers, and bowsers can't react once caught in it.
imo fast fall might not b very good for her recovery. since roy can move directions with his recovery fast falling would b ok for him. but lucina is very vertical not like ike's but still pretty vertical. i do like the the suggestion fixing DB to hit light characters that would help a lot. what? bowsers can react? never knew.

I still remember when the game first came out and everyone thought lucina was supposed to be faster, safer and more aggressive.

Rather than try and make a big change in a patch, why not just speed her up and make her safer? So a spacing-based non-campy alternative to sheik?
I was one of those pp who thought she would b faster more aggressive -_- I would take anything as long as its beneficial to her and not being a marth clone anymore because there r so many possibilities to make her different from marth based on the responses that everyone gave.
 

red hot roy

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as nice of a concept as this seems, you know that they would probably never do anything like that although one day smash 4 modding might be a bigger thing, and we might see something like that
 
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