Is it just me or is there very little end lag on attacks?

[Gotmilk0112]

Seems like the theme of Ultimate is "no endlag on anything, no punishes", with how ridiculously fast/lagless lots of characters and attacks have become.

Like, certain characters, their smash attacks are almost completely safe on shield. Or things like Pikachu/Pichu side-b and down-b, are almost unpunishable in general because they have almost no end lag. Same with things like Link's down air or up-b, the punish window is now ridiculously small, only like 5-10 frames.

Attacks that used to be high-risk high-reward are now super hard to punish with very little endlag. I recognize that Nintendo wanted to make the game faster, but making half the attacks in the game unpunishable isn't the way to go about that.

 

[~?~]

If you can't punish something in a few frames, Ultimate isn't the game for you. It's also character dependent. It's also why the "parry mechanic" exists, so you can drop shield sooner and punish even earlier. There is not a single unpunishable move in the game that I can think of. Literally. Half of my mains (Link) toolkit is a punish magnet lol You know how long it takes to toss a boomerang, or pull a bomb, or detonate it? FOREVER. If your eyes can't track frames, just grab players as a punish until you're able to. The easiest way to punish is to do an option out of shield while your opponent is still in end lag animation, eventually, you'll learn to release shield at the right time to do a parry and punish effectively.

EDIT: BOI I know you did not say Link's downair and up special can't be punished! This HAS to be a troll thread. IT-HAS-TO-BE! I'm telling your MOM on you!!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

King Dedede's dash attack says hi.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I’ve been feeling much the same way. A lot of moves that use to require actual thought in their usage can now be thrown out with reckless abandon because of how difficult they are to punish. It took me a while to get used to this coming from Smash 4, but eventually I learned that you just have to respect some moves.

There is not a single unpunishable move in the game that I can think of.

I’m almost certain this isn’t true. Fox’s neutral air, Inkling’s back air, and Zelda’s jab immediately come to mind.

 

[Haden]

I’m almost certain this isn’t true. Fox’s neutral air, Inkling’s back air, and Zelda’s jab immediately come to mind.

I've seen all 3 of these moves punished (tho some match ups are easier than others) out of shield or by spot dodging them and responding. I've especially seen them punished regularly actually out of parry. There are 0 attacks in this game that are unable to be punished. ~?~ is 100% correct. I know first hand by both punishing them and being punished using them, but then again, I play with the better players known in the community so I'm used to reacting effectively.

You can't just recklessly throw them out in a storm of spam either, not unless you're playing against casuals or low level players, because competitive players like myself will eventually whiff-bait it and then hard punish it. You know what's harder to punish than the majority of attacks in this game? Melee Fox and Melee Falco Wave-Shines They get punished all the time.

The truth is, the inability to punish low-whiff moves is something that doesn't exist in high level play. You need to know what options to use to punish what. Some characters have out of shield options that can punish virtually anything in the game (minus something like Pikachu Side Special because of the bounce), but even Pikachus side special can be punished out of a parry, in fact, anything can be punished out of parry except for grabs and command grabs because you can't shield or parry a grab mechanic.

The issue isn't the reduced lag on aerials, the issue is players not willing to climb the skill latter. It's very easy to blame the game for your flaws and lack of practice to achieve the ability to perform to a standard that virtually every competitive high to top level player achieves.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

If you really want to punish moves better practice parrying. It's a great way to catch bad approaches (especially on bralwers who have no disjoints).

Otherwise, if you want examples of laggy, punishable attacks, basically every superheavy has slow and easy to punish moves that leave them super open to attack.

 

[FartyParty]

I inherently recognize that most moves can be punished, but the fact that there is, technically, some way to punish every move that gets whiffed, that doesn't really make the moves "punishable" so to speak. The overall difficulty of punishing moves in this game is really high, and a very large portion of the moves in the game are exceptionally safe to throw out. This is enabled not only by the minimal end lag, but also by the hold buffer. People whiffing a lot and buffering shield every time is one of the things that most gets on my nerves when playing Ultimate. But back to the point, if a move is so safe that only the 2% or 5% or whatever of the playerbase who might qualify as "tournament-level" can punish it with any consistency, that move is effectively unpunishable, but it's also fair to say that these moves are not as safe at lower levels of play. Even if a move is exceptionally difficult to punish, lower level players make mistakes, such as bad spacing, that increase the punish opportunity.

I have no issue with every character having some very safe options, I recognize that every option can be punished if you know how, but I do generally agree with the notion that too many moves are too safe and the overall bar for punishing has been set too high.

 

[Haden]

I inherently recognize that most moves can be punished, but the fact that there is, technically, some way to punish every move that gets whiffed, that doesn't really make the moves "punishable" so to speak. The overall difficulty of punishing moves in this game is really high, and a very large portion of the moves in the game are exceptionally safe to throw out. This is enabled not only by the minimal end lag, but also by the hold buffer. People whiffing a lot and buffering shield every time is one of the things that most gets on my nerves when playing Ultimate. But back to the point, if a move is so safe that only the 2% or 5% or whatever of the playerbase who might qualify as "tournament-level" can punish it with any consistency, that move is effectively unpunishable, but it's also fair to say that these moves are not as safe at lower levels of play. Even if a move is exceptionally difficult to punish, lower level players make mistakes, such as bad spacing, that increase the punish opportunity.

I have no issue with every character having some very safe options, I recognize that every option can be punished if you know how, but I do generally agree with the notion that too many moves are too safe and the overall bar for punishing has been set too high.

you're being pretty self contradicting. even if only 5% of the player base is consistent at punishing (this includes the safest moves in the game) then it isn't 'unpunishable'. that 5% are consistent at it because they didn't make sour excuses about how 'unpunishable' the moves are. you're right tho. lower level players DO make mistakes, which is why they are lower level players. it doesn't help to make excuses for it. they wont get any better crying about. their inability to punish consistently is ultimately their own fault, not the games. it took me literally 3 days to start punishing consistently, and took my friend ~?~ 2 hours when he first played the game with me. he didnt make excuses, i didnt make excuses. i learned to adapt.

 

[FartyParty]

you're being pretty self contradicting. even if only 5% of the player base is consistent at punishing (this includes the safest moves in the game) then it isn't 'unpunishable'. that 5% are consistent at it because they didn't make sour excuses about how 'unpunishable' the moves are. you're right tho. lower level players DO make mistakes, which is why they are lower level players. it doesn't help to make excuses for it. they wont get any better crying about. their inability to punish consistently is ultimately their own fault, not the games. it took me literally 3 days to start punishing consistently, and took my friend ~?~ 2 hours when he first played the game with me. he didnt make excuses, i didnt make excuses. i learned to adapt.

I was basically saying the same thing as you, just in a stupid way. Not my my most well-written reply haha. I agree with the poster the bar for punishes is probably too high, but it's irrelevant b/c low and mid levels players have too many other issues for low end-lag to be the reason they miss punishes so the only players really affected by the high bar for punishing are the ones good enough to deal with it anyway.

Coincidentally, I've played your friend ~?~ in Quickplay before. It was a few months ago, and I gave him a shout out in the "Who was that?" player thread. Just barely edged him out in a best of 5. I think he maybe joined one of my public arenas too and beat me a couple times.

 

[Haden]

I was basically saying the same thing as you, just in a stupid way. Not my my most well-written reply haha. I agree with the poster the bar for punishes is probably too high, but it's irrelevant b/c low and mid levels players have too many other issues for low end-lag to be the reason they miss punishes so the only players really affected by the high bar for punishing are the ones good enough to deal with it anyway.

Coincidentally, I've played your friend ~?~ in Quickplay before. It was a few months ago, and I gave him a shout out in the "Who was that?" player thread. Just barely edged him out in a best of 5. I think he maybe joined one of my public arenas too and beat me a couple times.

if you played against him a few months ago he was brand new and had a broken thumb lol
his thumb is better now and hes actually so good at this point that its scary
he plays with high level players now
you should try to get that rematch with him. you can find him in arenas every other day or so

 

[FartyParty]

if you played against him a few months ago he was brand new and had a broken thumb lol
his thumb is better now and hes actually so good at this point that its scary
he plays with high level players now
you should try to get that rematch with him. you can find him in arenas every other day or so

Sounds like he's surpassed me, but I would definitely love to face him again!

 

[Khao]

Literally nothing is safe on shield in a game where parrying is a thing.

 

[Haden]

Literally nothing is safe on shield in a game where parrying is a thing.

Except for grab.... grab is always safe on shield
*trollface*

 

[TCizzle]

Wow, I expected no less. This is my first day here and the first thread I’ve looked at and the level of arrogance is truly top tier, even for a game forum. The low end lag/ difficulty to counter is something I’ve noticed too. I almost half expected some semi-decent analysis and clear feedback and understanding of the game beyond my own observations but low and behold it’s nothing but the classic “get gud” “you suck, I rule” game nerd arrogance. I get it, it’s really nothing new but it’s still sad and shameful when people come to a page looking for open honest discussion and this is what they get. It’s my fault for viewing a game forum and expecting something more. Carry on boys.

 

[Haden]

Wow, I expected no less. This is my first day here and the first thread I’ve looked at and the level of arrogance is truly top tier, even for a game forum. The low end lag/ difficulty to counter is something I’ve noticed too. I almost half expected some semi-decent analysis and clear feedback and understanding of the game beyond my own observations but low and behold it’s nothing but the classic “get gud” “you suck, I rule” game nerd arrogance. I get it, it’s really nothing new but it’s still sad and shameful when people come to a page looking for open honest discussion and this is what they get. It’s my fault for viewing a game forum and expecting something more. Carry on boys.

i mean the answer really is as simple as stop making excuses for bad performance, and practice. i dont have any issue dealing with smaller frame numbers because i didnt go play a few people and drop on the forums to complain about how its the games fault. i got my teeth kicked in for a solid 3 days and got good. it comes down to practice, thats it.

 

[TCizzle]

i mean the answer really is as simple as stop making excuses for bad performance, and practice. i dont have any issue dealing with smaller frame numbers because i didnt go play a few people and drop on the forums to complain about how its the games fault. i got my teeth kicked in for a solid 3 days and got good. it comes down to practice, thats it.

Cute, it’s not an excuse for poor performance it’s a valid observation of the game worthy of note and of open, honest discussion. If you haven’t noticed the low end lag/ difficulty to counter/ punish, I really question your understanding of the game. Maybe it’s not an issue for you but it is a feature of this game when compared to other Smash games and the vast majority of fighting games. I totally get it tho. I suck and you’re friggin awesome. But if I can be that open and honest, you should be open and honest enough to admit that your replies are arrogant, unhelpful, lacking any real understanding or clarification on this subject and that you’re a pompous ass. Carry on dudes, I won’t be around to witness it or bother you with my excuses for sucking any more. Enjoy!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Cute, it’s not an excuse for poor performance it’s a valid observation of the game worthy of note and of open, honest discussion. If you haven’t noticed the low end lag/ difficulty to counter/ punish, I really question your understanding of the game. Maybe it’s not an issue for you but it is a feature of this game when compared to other Smash games and the vast majority of fighting games. I totally get it tho. I suck and you’re friggin awesome. But if I can be that open and honest, you should be open and honest enough to admit that your replies are arrogant, unhelpful, lacking any real understanding or clarification on this subject and that you’re a pompous ***. Carry on dudes, I won’t be around to witness it or bother you with my excuses for sucking any more. Enjoy!

-Parrying works for punishing almost every attack
-The majority of attacks in this game can still be punished, are unsafe on shield, and/or have no true follow ups and give the other player the option to respond
-Not every move is punishable anyway. Some have very little endlag or large disjoints that protect them. Others have too much shield stun

Punishing moves is less about the fundamental aspects of the move itself and more about how ready you are for the move to come. Predicting and punishing by parrying, jumping, rolling, spotdodging, counterattacking or using a counter are all viable options that every character has. So yes, effective punishing is truly down to the skill of the player.

 

[FartyParty]

Wow, I expected no less. This is my first day here and the first thread I’ve looked at and the level of arrogance is truly top tier, even for a game forum. The low end lag/ difficulty to counter is something I’ve noticed too. I almost half expected some semi-decent analysis and clear feedback and understanding of the game beyond my own observations but low and behold it’s nothing but the classic “get gud” “you suck, I rule” game nerd arrogance. I get it, it’s really nothing new but it’s still sad and shameful when people come to a page looking for open honest discussion and this is what they get. It’s my fault for viewing a game forum and expecting something more. Carry on boys.

Hey, now. I said I agreed with you that the bar for punishes had been set too high. I just also happen to agree with everyone else that it's irrelevant and the low-end lag isn't what's causing you to miss punishes. If you're a low or mid-level player, your opponents are undoubtedly making other mistakes that increase the punish windows beyond their moves' end-lag, and if you're missing those punishes it's not because of the low end-lag but because of other mistakes you are making. If you're not good enough to overcome the low-end lag, then you undoubtedly have other issues with your play that are more significant in causing you to miss punishes. Once you deal with those other problems, you'll find that the low-end lag doesn't hinder your punish ability. If you already view yourself as "high level", and you have difficulty punishing and you think it's due to low-end lag, then unfortunately you're not "high level" (Which is OK!! I'm not either!), and learning how to punish is one of the necessary steps to get there.

 

[Haden]

Cute, it’s not an excuse for poor performance it’s a valid observation of the game worthy of note and of open, honest discussion.

I gave honest feedback on said honest discussion. In the same sense that you have to practice L cancels in titles like Melee and PM, you have to practice reactive shielding and punishing in Ultimate. Each title has its advanced methods to cater to its mechanics. You just have to practice them. That's the honest answer. There is no short term solution to learning how to punish in Ultimate just like there is no short term solution to advanced waveland techs in Melee.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Wow, I expected no less. This is my first day here and the first thread I’ve looked at and the level of arrogance is truly top tier, even for a game forum. The low end lag/ difficulty to counter is something I’ve noticed too. I almost half expected some semi-decent analysis and clear feedback and understanding of the game beyond my own observations but low and behold it’s nothing but the classic “get gud” “you suck, I rule” game nerd arrogance. I get it, it’s really nothing new but it’s still sad and shameful when people come to a page looking for open honest discussion and this is what they get. It’s my fault for viewing a game forum and expecting something more. Carry on boys.

And yet here you are, acting just as (if not more) elitist, smug and condensing than the people you're trying to portray as. Kinda ironic if you ask me.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

And yet here you are, acting just as (if not more) elitist, smug and condensing than the people you're trying to portray as. Kinda ironic if you ask me.

Indeed. Showing willingness to listen when you are starting out somewhere, even on a game forum, is important. Lashing out because he didn't get the answer he wanted to hear is just immature and that attitude is just unhelpful to himself. Some people come around expecting a quick-fix to their problems, but getting better at certain tasks takes time and patience.

 

[Jebril]

If you can't punish something in a few frames, Ultimate isn't the game for you. It's also character dependent. It's also why the "parry mechanic" exists, so you can drop shield sooner and punish even earlier. There is not a single unpunishable move in the game that I can think of. Literally. Half of my mains (Link) toolkit is a punish magnet lol You know how long it takes to toss a boomerang, or pull a bomb, or detonate it? FOREVER. If your eyes can't track frames, just grab players as a punish until you're able to. The easiest way to punish is to do an option out of shield while your opponent is still in end lag animation, eventually, you'll learn to release shield at the right time to do a parry and punish effectively.

EDIT: BOI I know you did not say Link's downair and up special can't be punished! This HAS to be a troll thread. IT-HAS-TO-BE! I'm telling your MOM on you!!

Actually certain moves ARE UNPUNISHABLE ON SHIELD WITHOUT A PARRY. There's so much shield stun that you'll never be able to punish a move. So what you said can all be taken to the trash unless you expect people to parry every single move LMAO. Which not even pros are even close to doing that, so it's not a 'git gud' situation. It depends on the character you're playing against and the character you're playing with as well. Obviously Lucina has faster options OoS than a Ganon for instance, so she's likely more able to punish something that he can't, especially more consistently.

It also depends on what we are talking about, no most F-Smashes in the game cannot be punished by most of the cast from even a quarter of BF away. Not in ANY TRUE SENSE. You can predict what they'll do next but that's literally a mixup now, not a punish. So even whiffed moves are extremely difficult to punish, you see this plenty of time in high level play. Marss will spam ZSS's grab (apparently this move is slow LOL) from a quarter of BF away whiffing on purpose, then mash A knowing most people don't realize how much faster his recovery is than you think. It works because there's actually no smooth animation between the grab to her jab, the actual animation just literally jumps to her jabbing.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/493829978?filter=archives&sort=time

Look at 3:16:00 to see what I'm talking about. This **** is obvious to every top level player it's why Tweek mentioned it early on in Ultimate and other players say similar things. Most have just accepted it as part of the game, yes...you can obviously punish things here and there but a good bit of this game is in mixups and reads NOT punishes. The most consistent way to punish moves in this game is with parries, shielding or punishing wiffs is not what it used to be like in Brawl and Melee where it was much easier and clearer that if a noob player was spamming stupid moves they'd get destroyed. This game does not follow that formula, shields and grabbed were significantly nerfed in this game. Shield stun was taken up a huge amount from Melee and Brawl, and grabs have had their range significantly reduced as well as in general being slower than in those two games I also mentioned. Adding the wonky grab hitboxes in this game as well and you see where I'm coming from.

The way you hilariously wrote this paragraph pretty much scraping the whole thing that was said here by saying 'lol git gud' is not being honest about Ultimate compared to the previous Smash games which I believe what OP is trying to mention here. YES Ultiamte has reduced punish windows SIGNIFICANTLY, and in my opinion ITS TO ATTRACT LOWER SKILLED PLAYERS SUCH AS YOURSELF to play the game more and believe they are better than they actually are in basic fighting game mechanics.