Is it just me or is everyone naturally good with Cloud?

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pollo20x6

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I know the first reaction to the question is "It's you. Git gud".
But it's not that I'm losing to Cloud. I've beaten most of them. It's the effort it takes. I main Ness and second Mr. G&W.
I consider myself well enough to not struggle against a character that has only been played for little more than a week. But I am. My G&W tends to get destroyed and my Ness struggles. Adding more frustration is that when I beat the other player's Cloud by a little bit, they must pin their loss on their inexperience with Cloud and switch to their main. This is where I tend to destroy them. It's happened multiple times where their Cloud ends up being the character they played best with. I don't understand. The majority of people I play feel like they know what they're doing. As if they've played this character since the game launched last year.

Point being, wtf?
OP is a phrase I hate to use and I'm still stickin to my explanation that it's the lack of matchup experience. But goshdanggit.
Cloud's range, speed, and limit make for a nasty combination. His speed and strength are like Ike, but a million times harder. He gets the limit break at least two times during a single stock on average.
Great Ryu, Roy, and Lucas players have barely started popping up for me online and it took Mewtwo a while. Makes sense. It takes players a while to practice and master these characters. Cloud felt like it was right off the bat. Not yet masterered, but they play like they've been practicing for months.

If anyone would like to play me so that you can see that I'm not terrible, I'd be more than willing.
My ID is pollo20x6

And I would prefer that you play me first before giving me advice on how to approach Cloud with Ness or Mr. G&W.
 

PapaJ

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Then it's the matchup. You *Literally* said
Adding more frustration is that when I beat the other player's Cloud by a little bit, they must pin their loss on their inexperience with Cloud and switch to their main. This is where I tend to destroy them. It's happened multiple times where their Cloud ends up being the character they played best with
 
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Gemba Board

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What's the issue? What are you struggling with? Are people zoning you out with nairs fairs and bairs? Ness has got some nice reach on his fair but that sword is tough to get through. If I understand correctly, it's not the player making great reads and reactions, but it's the character allowing them to keep up?
Also, what are you doing to take advantage of cloud off stage? I'd imagine you could troll at the ledge with the back side of dsmash against cloud recoving with upb.
 

pollo20x6

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What's the issue? What are you struggling with? Are people zoning you out with nairs fairs and bairs? Ness has got some nice reach on his fair but that sword is tough to get through. If I understand correctly, it's not the player making great reads and reactions, but it's the character allowing them to keep up?
Also, what are you doing to take advantage of cloud off stage? I'd imagine you could troll at the ledge with the back side of dsmash against cloud recoving with upb.
I'm not sure. I just feel like everyone plays Cloud like they main him.
I try to edge gaurd, but nothing seems to work. I've tried Dsmashing at the edge, but his Up B always hits me instead. It works on Mega Man and C. Falcon, but characters like Ike, Shulk, Marth, or Cloud, the sword hits me first on their way up.

As for specific issues, I'd say everything. If I camp and try to bait them to be, they charge limit. If I rush, they keep me at bay with fairs, bairs, and nairs. If I come in aggressive, they block and grab.
He's just too fast and has a response to every play style with his range, speed and strength.

The only character I play that has a trump to Cloud is Shulk. His fair is a great edge guarder. But on the stage, he's too slow. So unless the other player is really bad, they won't be going off stage. With no projectile, I gotta rush Cloud, but it's 50/50 of whether I'll do well or not.

That's why I'd rather play someone first before getting advice because they'd see how I play. Maybe they could get a better feel for my gameplay style and say "You're just not good". Something to give an idea.
 
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Guimartgon

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You are a Ness main, I'm honestly trying out Cloud because I feel like I can beat Ness with him. the MU might be 55-45 but it could very well be 50-50 once the metagame develops, solely because he forces you to recover low a lot of the time but, as far as I know, Cloud can't challenge Ness' PK Thunder II with his Dair (even if he can, it's really risky). I think everyone who struggles vs cloud is struggling because they don't know how to deal with a fast sword fighter. Sure, Cloud's frame data isn't amazing, but it's much better than say shulk's without having as much lag as marth thanks to auto-cancels. Cloud loses a lot against shield, he doesn't get much going off of throws(Uthrow can kill, but extremely late) since not only can't he get anything out of them at high %s, the angles on them are pretty mediocre so they have to play very stage controlly. Try to run in and shield when they are in the air, if they miss space something due to you getting on their face, grab them, Ness's frame data on Fair, Nair and Uair is really good, if you stay on his face, he can't do much. Hope that helps!
 

CptPuff

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I dunno man, I'm feeling this too. I was a long time Falcon main, and dropped him for Cloud back on the 15th. I'm already getting better results with him than my Falcon ever got, but perhaps I'm just naturally better with the character.

I must note, though, that the Cloud ditto is rough.
 

PapaJ

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Lol, if you're hugging the ledge then maybe you should jump out and try and intercept him. Better yet use PK Thunder, Pk fire, Fair, etc. If your letting Cloud get back without much of a fight then thats on you. Cloud can only either attack or airdoge difference being if you smack him in the air. With G&W your aerials are also really good. You can also use Neutral B to attempt to screw his recovery.

I don't understand people who don't try to gimp characters with bad recoveries. Worst case you get smacked back to the stage and take some percent. You could also try ledge trumping and going for an immediate Bair.
 

Mr.Seven

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As someone who is learning to main Cloud; I can tell you right now that Clouds are actually pretty easy to beat if you know what to do. Cloud's biggest weaknesses are:

1. Nothing is guaranteed out of his throws, you can tech out of every Cloud throw combo.
2. His specials have difficulty killing unless he is in Limit Mode. Make him waste his limit, and you're good to go.
3. His recovery is crap when not in Limit Mode. It almost never sweetspots the ledge, making for easy punish, and it doesn't even go very high. A decent gimp will screw Cloud over.
4. Cross Slash, when shielded, makes Cloud WIDE open for easy punish.

And you said you main Ness. Ness's Down B can absorb both normal and Limit Blade Beam. Ness has all the tools to maximize on Cloud's weaknesses.
 
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EnhaloTricks

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Yeah the Ness MU seems decently in Ness' favor. Cloud has the disjoint, but ness has the frame date and off-stage game to really capitalize on him. PK Fire off stage will kill or add a ton of damage.

As ness and g&w you should be controlling the stage and gimping him. Both their recoveries are good enough (ness being focused on his DJ, not that cloud can really challenge PKT2) to put fear into the cloud player
 

Emblem Lord

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The term the OP is looking for...

"Braindead"

Not a bad thing. But Cloud is indeed...very easy to pick up and be successful with.
 

Dilan Omer

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I have had difficulty with cloud with my mains aswell but I fought a few of them and did pretty well..

Its mostly because you dont know the character well like I do..
 

MagiusNecros

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As a Bowser main with knowledge of basic fundamentals this game is centered around I can pick up most characters easily.

Only problem I have with Cloud is the guy is really fast.

He is fun to play but with proper use of Limit he can be borderline OP.

LB Cross Slash is probably his best LB out there to serve as a interrupt.
 

Z3N1TH

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I had the same sentiments as you in the first days of Cloud's release.
I was losing with my mains, who I put hours into, only to switch to Cloud and 2 stock their Cloud easily.

I whined and complained that he was busted, and he might be, but i've been learning ways to deal with him day by day.
i think he is a very strong character, but he does have weaknesses. Will have to wait for the meta to shake out and see what Cloud is rly capable of before truly deciding.
 

Lady Kuki

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I really like to think that the reason why Cloud seems OP is because he's barely two weeks old; it takes a while for people to adapt to a new character. I remember back when Roy first came out, people called him OP. They were talking about how fast and powerful he was. Several months have passed. Now I hardly know anyone who uses him, at least competitively.

Cloud does feel natural though. He's fast and he hits hard and I like characters like that. However, when I play as Cloud, it's very hard for me to get kills. Also, his throws are lack luster, for he can't get a lot of good combos from them. Only time will tell whether Cloud is truly OP or not. :p
 

Zalezus

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Cloud does feel natural though. He's fast and he hits hard and I like characters like that. However, when I play as Cloud, it's very hard for me to get kills. Also, his throws are lack luster, for he can't get a lot of good combos from them. Only time will tell whether Cloud is truly OP or not. :p
Throws may not covert to combos or kills but he can always build percent and space away. Dash attack and ftilt kill at high percent and near the ledge, which is not very difficult to achieve especially factoring in Rage. Occasionally I opt for the long game rather than a powerful kill move that gets me punished (Fsmash and Finishing Touch come to mind.) Safe Dash Attacks are a premium considering his aerial autocancels.

Really depends on the player and their patience/spacing against yours.
 

Lady Kuki

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Throws may not covert to combos or kills but he can always build percent and space away. Dash attack and ftilt kill at high percent and near the ledge, which is not very difficult to achieve especially factoring in Rage. Occasionally I opt for the long game rather than a powerful kill move that gets me punished (Fsmash and Finishing Touch come to mind.) Safe Dash Attacks are a premium considering his aerial autocancels.

Really depends on the player and their patience/spacing against yours.
I see. Thanks for the tip! The only throw I use is the forward throw, and that's to keep my opponent away from me. Truth be told, I don't have a lot of knowledge behind this character; I'm just talking from my own experience.
 

~Skelly~

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I wouldn't go as far as "naturally good", but Cloud is a very accessible character and people can play pretty decently with him. And yeah, I have noticed I struggle against Cloud from time to time but not always. I also wouldn't go as far and say he's "OP", either. He has his weaknesses. I'll only consider (emphasis on consider) him that if they decide to buff his recovery to the point where LB CH is pretty much only used for "style KOs".
 

King9999

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Cloud's definitely not OP. I'm happy to have him as a sub though, because up until now I've been using Ganon almost exclusively.

I think if you're having problems with him, it might be just matchup unfamiliarity. Remember, there's 57 other characters Cloud has to fight, so much of your losses will just be data. I use Cloud, but I haven't fought all the other characters nearly enough to know how he stacks up against the rest of the cast. Nobody here is an expert. Just give it some time.
 

Conn1496

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Honestly, it's likely just because he's got nothing set in stone yet, no-one's had the time to experience how to be consistently good against him.

He does have (some glaring) weaknesses, but the strengths he has are really flexible, so he's actually very easy for almost anyone to pick up and use from what I see. On the other hand, his weaknesses are very nastily capitalised on by a few characters (Greninja, anyone?), so it's not like he's impossible to beat.

There's also the fact you have to play around those weaknesses, which not a lot of people honestly do, so while he's inherently flexible, he's also quite squishy and unforgiving, so you have to tend to be aware of that. He gives a lot of leeway if you're winning, but returning to neutral can be a pain in the ass if your opponent knows what they're doing.

Also, I find that he slightly struggles at killing without Limit compared to other characters in his weight/size class, etc, so as long as you keep on your toes, you can force him into some horrible situations.

(Also again, Greninja... I can't stress this enough, Greninja vs. Cloud is near unwinnable for Cloud if the Greninja even remotely understands the MU.)
 
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