Is Ganondorf and Zelda Better or Worse than SSB4?

Birdygamer

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#1
Since I've been wanting to see if these are any better than they were in Smash4, the reason is that these two were "low tier characters" and I wish to know if Ultimate has given them a fair chance in the competitive world of Smash Bros Ultimate
 
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#2
Since I've been wanting to see if these are any better than they were in Smash4, the reason is that these two were "low tier characters" and I wish to know if Ultimate has given them a fair chance in the competitive world of Smash Bros Ultimate
They're both better in Ultimate than they were in Smash 4. :ultganondorf:'s framedata is better all around especially with his air attacks, but not for his Smash attacks. :ultzelda:'s has better framedata as well with her air attacks having a lot less ending lag.
 
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Luigifan18

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#6
Since I've been wanting to see if these are any better than they were in Smash4, the reason is that these two were "low tier characters" and I wish to know if Ultimate has given them a fair chance in the competitive world of Smash Bros Ultimate
They're both better in Ultimate than they were in Smash 4. :ultganondorf:'s framedata is better all around especially with his air attacks, but not for his Smash attacks. :ultzelda:'s has better framedata as well with her air attacks having a lot less ending lag.
And I bet Ganondorf 's usage of his sword helps too?
No it has worser framedata than his old Smash attacks from Smash 4. But very useful in multiplayer matches.
That's the thing about sword-users in general; they tend to have worse frame data but better hitbox size (i.e. reach/range) than fist/foot-fighters. In Ganondorf's case, however, his frame data was terrible even as a brawler, so making his attacks even slower in exchange for expanding their hitboxes has been seen by some as an idiotic move for him. At least it's only his Smash attacks, and his tilts and aerials remain fast enough to theoretically contest other characters' attacks.
 
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Birdygamer

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#8
Now what I'm scared of who will they say is low tier. I'm suspecting either Jigglypuff or Pichu but I'm hoping that no matter who the 'low tier" characters are, they still have a chance to shine in the competitive world of Smash
 
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Luigifan18

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#9
Now what I'm scared of who will they say is low tier. I'm suspecting either Jigglypuff or Pichu but I'm hoping that no matter who the 'low tier" characters are, they still have a chance to shine in the competitive world of Smash
Actually, most people are pointing to Kirby as the game's worst character.
 
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RetrogamerMax2
#10
Now what I'm scared of who will they say is low tier. I'm suspecting either Jigglypuff or Pichu but I'm hoping that no matter who the 'low tier" characters are, they still have a chance to shine in the competitive world of Smash
I hear a lot of people saying :ultpichu: is top tier believe it or not.
 

Luigifan18

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#17
Why Kirby?? I mean yeah he's funky to use but he can be effective!
Are you serious?! I thought the :ultduckhunt: or :ultbowserjr: was at the very bottom of the tier list.
Apparently, Kirby can't combo worth a damn, and everyone else effortlessly beats out his attacks, meaning that it's an uphill struggle for him to rack up his opponent's damage and score a KO, while one mistake on his part gets him combo'd to oblivion. The prevailing theory on why Kirby is so bad is that the developers vastly overestimated the usefulness of his copy ability and undertuned the rest of his kit to "compensate".
 

link2702

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#19
Zelda is massively better absolutely no question there, ganon...not sure.

Yes he has better frame data on most moves, but he lost a few things that he really needed to truly be better.

His uair no longer covers behind him and below with the semi-spike hitbox, so it’s not as useful as 4, where it was amazing as a gimping tool. It also feels far slower and seems to have less range( I think on range..) than in 4, even though it still auto cancels from shorthop, this also makes it a bit less useful than 4 as a “get off me” tool from out of shield.

He no longer dies second from ganoncides, which hurts the utilty of side b a bit, as once you’re both on last stock, people don’t have a as much reason to fear you near the ledge/while recovering, so they’ll be more willing to try and gimp you offstage.

He no longer auto-snaps to the ledge as easily in 4(course no one really does, but his always seemed to have insane auto-snap range) making his recovery slightly worse(and it’s already awful)

His upsmash isn’t as useful since it lost the iasa frames the kick used to have, which made the kick a actual fake out move.

i also feel the “do anything from a dash” doesn’t help him near as much as other characters, it does help no doubt, but not quite as much, because all his tilts and jab are still roughly the same.


Overall I feel Ganon’s offstage and recovery options are worse, but he got a few new changes that do help him a bit on ground(up tilt is actually a bit more useful now instead of just an insult move thanks to less startup time), but I just feel those don’t help enough to really say with absolute certainty he’s majorly better. His changes to up air especially sting, this move was truly one of the only ones I’d say was amazing in 4, and they neutered it so much

I honestly still feel he’s probably gonna remain low tier.
 
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Cruelcumber

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#24
Yeah I would definitely say both Zelda & Ganondorf have been buffed from Smash 4 to Ultimate. For the first time ever in the series, Zelda actually doesn't feel awful to play as, which I find impressive. Ganondorf too received a decent share of buffs, but some nerfs, although him and Zelda are no longer at the bottom of the viability list anymore. They both might be on the lower end because of what the characters fundamentally are, but at the very least have became more approachable and entertaining characters on a casual level.
 

Luigifan18

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#26
Duck Hunt is mid tier or higher in the right hands.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Duck Hunt's problem is having a game plan which is extremely different from the rest of the roster, and having a high learning curve as a result of this (as well as its moves just plain being hard to get the hang of, especially Trick Shot).

(Yes, I know this post is off-topic, but a question about Duck Hunt was asked and I felt the need to answer it.)
 
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Necro'lic

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#28
Both are demonstrably better.

I wouldn't put too much credence in tier lists yet though. At this point in time, tier lists are more like popularity contests and skill floor analysis. Anyone who is a popular character like Wolf or Palu are put high and anyone with not much needed to be adequate with them like Marth or Chrom are also put high. This is how it is for most tier lists.

You also have to remember biases for characters pros played a lot like Diddy, Peach, Fox, Marth, Sheik, Bayonetta, and Cloud vs those that are barely played by pros at all. As well as remember biases off of the last game's tier list, so of course Bayonetta and Cloud would be high and Bowser Jr., Dedede, and Ganondorf would be low, because they all were like that in Smash 4.

In short, don't worry about it. Those two are far better than last game and they are fun to play.
 
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zipzo

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#29
Now what I'm scared of who will they say is low tier. I'm suspecting either Jigglypuff or Pichu but I'm hoping that no matter who the 'low tier" characters are, they still have a chance to shine in the competitive world of Smash
I hear a lot of people saying :ultpichu: is top tier believe it or not.
The two of you would have to be either living under a rock or completely ignoring the competitive scene to miss that Pichu is an obviously fiercely dominant force right now and serious contender for top tier.
 

faygoshill

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#31
Ganondorf is better tbh because even though his Smash attacks are slower he still kills super early with tilts, and he doesn't have much lag on his aerials

HOWEVER, a lot of the changes to movement that come from blanket buffs in this game actually might not benefit him that much, and instead benefit other characters way more. Roy for example is crazy in this game. And since his poison in Smash 4 was characters with good movement, then...

We'll have to wait and see.
 
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#32
The two of you would have to be either living under a rock or completely ignoring the competitive scene to miss that Pichu is an obviously fiercely dominant force right now and serious contender for top tier.
I mentioned that people said he was top tier. I'm not that into the competitive scene, but I know who is low and high on the tier list.
 
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BahamurShin
#33
I would argue that Ganon's new Smash attacks are more useful than before. Heavy hitters normally have slow attacks, so to compensate they tend to have range. The sword gives Ganon that much needed range which makes him more dangerous than before.
I agree that his old Up Smash was better because of low lag on it, but the new one isn't that shabby at covering getup options from the ledge.
 
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#36
What’s the best tier list as of right now?
I don't know.

Ganondorf and Zelda are both better than they have been in past titles but still not amazing by any means.
I wish Ultimate's Ganondorf was as good as Melee's Ganondorf, but it still comes 2nd. But really though, Ganondorf should have had that sword in his moveset back in Melee because it was in his silhouette in the Challenger Approaching screen.
 
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#37
Actually, most people are pointing to Kirby as the game's worst character.
Yeah, I can definitely see this. Anyone who knows anything about how Kirby plays would see that he is easily one of the worst in Ultimate. His frame data is bad, his comboing is almost non-existent and he is way to easy to punish and abuse.

Hell, when I started WoL I replaced Kirby as soon as I got Mario because of how awful he feels to play.

His Side B is, easily, still one of the worst, if not THE worst, specials in the game in my opinion.
 

Quillion

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#38
I wish Ganondorf didn't have that lame sword. Now his Smashes are big and sweeping and it doesn't fit Smash Ganondorf's moveset at all.
 

popemanz

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#39
Since I've been wanting to see if these are any better than they were in Smash4, the reason is that these two were "low tier characters" and I wish to know if Ultimate has given them a fair chance in the competitive world of Smash Bros Ultimate
what people say when they don't know gannon isn't even near worst character in this game
 
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#40
Yeah, I can definitely see this. Anyone who knows anything about how Kirby plays would see that he is easily one of the worst in Ultimate. His frame data is bad, his comboing is almost non-existent and he is way to easy to punish and abuse.

Hell, when I started WoL I replaced Kirby as soon as I got Mario because of how awful he feels to play.

His Side B is, easily, still one of the worst, if not THE worst, specials in the game in my opinion.
Kirby actually has decent frame data and a very good combo game. The issues with him are that he lacks range, speed and that his specials are very situational for the most part. He has multiple jumps but his air speed is too low, and he gets easily outranged by characters with longer limbs and weapons while also getting camped by projectiles. It is very easy to force Kirby into a disadvantage state while he was to work too damn hard to get in. When gets into advantage, he can make great use of his combo game. Problem is getting in to begin with.
 
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