Is ganon a bad mu.

[bboss]

I was trying out Lucas recently and I played against a Ganon. The match was going fairly well, until he would back air me offstage twice and i was dead. Is this a bad mu? And if so how can I avoid getting baired so much offstage? Fair?

 

[D e l t a]

Used to think it was a bad MU until I started dash dancing instead of using PKF and playing at a closer range.

Ganon is easily outplayed in neutral by Lucas and our punish game on his recovery is just as good. Plus, Lucas has a way better gimp potential, combo starters, recovery, and mix-ups.

Ganon's hitboxes are similar in range to Ike's attacks, but they both share a weakness of high end lag that leads to being vulnerable on whiff. Watch top level Fox/Falco vs Ganon or the vod below and you'll get a better understanding of the range where you can dash dance to bait Ganon, safely throw out laser (PKF), or when you should use an aerial / shine (magnet) to approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF0vrsRE0Ik

^ Great example of heavy pressure on Ganon, controlling stage, tech chasing, whiff punishing into combo


Realize that Ganon doesn't have a great approach, his jumpsquat is 5 frames, and the startup / endlag on most attacks is fairly significant. Fair has 12 frames end lag (l-cancel) and the first active hitbox comes out on frame 14. If they use a lot of SHFFL Fair / Bair, wait for the moment just before they land with an attack, then dash in to punish.

Ganon's CC/ASDI game isn't that strong with every grounded attack being slow, except for Frame 3 jab, in which case you can't be holding down anymore.

• Frame 7 grab (tiny range)
• Frame 9 Ftilt
• Frame 10 Dtilt
• Frame 14 DownB.

 

[bboss]

Wow, hyper flame did a really good job of just carrying Red ranger Around the stage. I'll focus more on punishing fair /Blair next time I play this

 

[D e l t a]

My mindset I always carry into this matchup is that Ganon can't approach. All I need to do is play a very patient neutral, punish his slow movement & defensive options, then everything else will happen naturally (combos, ledge guards, etc).

 

[bboss]

That's true but lucas side-b is also basically useless against ganon. and he can mess up your recovery with cape, so there are some drawbacks.

 

[D e l t a]

Cape doesn't reverse Lucas upB and if anything, Ganon's Fair/Bair or reverse Uair are much safer & easier to punish with. You can also use different air dodge timings into tethering to the ledge if Ganon starts trying to ledge guard offstage.

PKF is good if you do retreating PKF (not DJC, just run back -> PKF) or if you throw out a PKF as Ganon is landing from the air. While Ganon's Fair hits thru PKF, you can PKF on reaction when you see Ganon jump and it should be able to safely punish his landing lag.

 

[bboss]

That's true... are you sure about it not reversing tho? I thought it reversed most projectiles..

 

[D e l t a]

I mean PKT2. It works against PKT1 and reflects projectiles yes, but being out that far as Ganon against Lucas you might as well hit him with another aerial