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Ryo has always used Corrin as a secondary and Ryuga has never dropped her. In fact, I think he would be pretty mad to hear that.
how did i not-
and yet, even as a mere secondary, Ryo's always done more with the character. I literally only heard about Ryuga once and how he beat a few people like ally, Dabu & inoto at a tournament and then proceeded to get downloaded by GFs. after that, I haven't heard of him at all. and it was sort of in the begginings, which only makes me think people just didn't know stuff about the character to counter it.
Cosmos is and pretty much has always been the best Corrin, based on results. It'd be pretty unfair not to give it to him, as consistent he has been. Everyone else either uses Corrin as a secondary for some matchup or stuff like that. Right after him, Ryo should be undisputable.
Never meant a thing.
The character's very good, he just isn't as obvious a he may seem (people think of Corrin a some sort of Brawl Marth). Our weaknesses are the kind of things you'd see getting the backhand at higher level play, like not taking good care of your spacing (plenty of blindspots as well as unsafe aerials if you're not perfect with them) and our approaching isn't super strong (not many safe on shield aerials other than B-air). Doesn't help that there aren't many high-level players using him, other than, like, Ryo. ESaM feels very green to the character and Earth just feels desperately thrown in there for the sake of adding a Top 5.
I agree with allot you say, but there are three big things I think we underestimate as Corrin mains atm ( I am guilty of not doing these when I should be doing them more). One, how good the positioning off grabs is for Corrin . We think no follow ups , and don't do many grabs. Also i've seen Cosmos is really starting to grab allot, and I can see why. One in respecting Corrin's tools the opponent MUST shield allot. Two, Corrin in our general game plan wants the opponent either above them or at the ledge while she boxes them out. When Corrin's opponent is in either of these two positions Corrin's weaknesses are nearly completely mitigated. For example if your opponent is standing just on top of the ledge and Corrin is at the roll position there is very few ways they can get past Corrin. While Corrin's opponent is here any advantages in mobility they would have are pretty much moot ( our burst mobility and range make this highly in our advantage), also the optimal grab at the ledge even if we had follow ups would still be to throw them off stage. The biggest reason that we should be grabbing more though is to throw our opponent into this position. If thrown up then there is no shield and we can punish their landing attempts, if thrown to the ledge then we gain the aforementioned advantage state. The second thing I feel we underestimate is how safe our n-air really is. The damn thing is only -7 on shield without shield drop (which is amazing for a swordy). As long as your not in shield grab range after the push back of it then it's completely safe on shield. To be put in perspective Marth f-air TIPPERED is -8 on shield, Ike n-air is -7 on shield, and cloud N-air is -9 on shield (using these because they are the common spacing tools for each). N-air is a very safe move unless you flub your spacing enough to get shield grabbed. Now for the 3rd thing Ik there are times when people shield into your spacing and you can't fade back away quickly enough to not get shield grabbed. Yet, for that we really need to realize how good Corrin is at crossing up. For example if they are really close to you don't try to fade away, but forward and cross them up with the N-air. There they have no way to shield grab you which is pretty much the only frame 7 or lower out of shield option that the majority of the cast has. Here when crossing up your opponent has to shield drop or do an OOS b-air or something. Either of which takes 7 frames or more and you are safe. Also if you RAR a N-air and cross up you will not only be safe, but be facing their back (which is an amazing positioning advantage).
I mean mostly this is things I see cosmos do allot that I don't see other corrins do allot ( Also I was a SF 4 player before this so I like dem cross ups... just kinda noticed cosmos did them too). This set of cosmos vs sethlon really extenuates it imho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j7NkJsY9aQ
I really feel as if it's only going to drop from here. Let's also not forget the amount of hate towards the character.
Corrin's not making a splash so she goes by kinda unnoticed by the angry mobs. There ARE people who dislike the character and think some of her moves are overtuned/busted (specially Dragon Lunge), but no one has been campaigning to get her nerfed as of yet. Some are even still salty about her inclusion in Smash, but in general the hate towards her is nowhere near what Diddy, Luigi, Sheik and Bayo have had historically. Even now, people are monitoring characters like Cloud, Ryu, Mewtwo, etc for a chance to cry foul, so I'd wager we have quite a bit of time before it's our turn, if ever.
as legit as Cosmos is and as awesome his plays were throughout the whole set (those Grabs were satisfying), I feel Sethlon was being Dumbass Mode and dropping Shield way too often or doing stuff like airdodging when he shouldn't have had. Doesn't help he kept allowing himself to get Grabbed all the time. again, I don't actually want to take it from Cosmos. I actually learned from all those Grabs, lol
Ignorant people everywhere.
The one's Ive seen has it as -7, and it does 7 dmg which should be 6 frames shield stun, and the landing lag is 13 frames, the one here you gave has it listed as -8 doe which is weird (-1 with shield drop). Here is the frame data sheet I used: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=943524191
Imho our lack of rep atm is the main cause of the percived corrin decline. Ryuga our only top ish lvl solo main has been on hiatus since landlocked (says hell be back post CEO), and cosmos while good is not on a national lvl like Ryuga (CEO will be his first national, probs wont top 32 his first). Ryo I never expected to leave Ike (the man is a god tier loyalist... wrote and sung an Ike rap man), and I honestly dont see corrin panning out as mid tier when, Ike a character she theorrtically plays similarly too, and outclasses in most ways is considered upper mid. It is really impossible to have top lvl solo resaults when we have NO top lvl solo reps not on hiatus. You can pretty much see the same thing with villager minus Ranai atm. Is villager less good? No, just no rep. Rep has allot to do with perception.
It's impossible for Corrin to be anything lower than high when we do pretty well against most high and top-tier characters. Not to mention the amount of good tools we have will never scream anything lower than that. Ike has a HOO Haa...and that's about it. Everything else he has, we pretty much have something of his' in our kit.
Which is why I wonder why people kept mentioning him ever that one single tournament, like, 3 months ago? This was pre-patch. He took out ally, inoto on Winners and I think Dabus. That's about it. Ryo did a lot more in terms of raw results ever since Corrin came out, even it's co-main status. Cosmos did the most on raw results, and he's a full main, despite not being high/top-level.
Kind of generic-sounding, but it does sound only reasonable that you'd suggest that. If anything, I'm inclined on it, this time. So be it.
Me too, and all the weeklies I went to, I averaged at about 42-43rd. Never changed my opinion because I was playing bad in tournament, lol. also, for some reason, I can't picture Upper Mid as a mere ''mid tier''. I don't know, there's a reason it's seperated from the rest of the Mid. If you started with that, I might've been sort of accepting of it.
oh gawd i'm still trying... still have some bracket daemons at my locals ( Fing ryoka...... aka IC junior... also happy I haven't had to face IC). Also on top of daemons I have just way better players like Ito, falln, and pretty much all the San Diego Pr under one roof (Jingen i'm just a boy). Safe to say even at my large rate of grind it's gonna be a while, regardless of character.
I mean for wining Mu's i'd say Ness, probs slight on mario, Ryu is very likely, and possibly rosa. I explain rosa and Ryu though. For ryu he can't force our approach, and he can't break our zone easily. If we watch for focus and don't overextend our juggles we do very good in this Mu. Also near kill percent Ryu recover is free for Corrin. Counter either of them and he's dead. Rosa we can pick luma off easily, cloud also has been shown to be able to do this, and Corrin's disjoints will probably do just as well. Also Cosmos Has a mu chart, It's not that over bias imho.... pre 1.16, post 1.15. I mean saying we have disadvantageous mu's vs 4 out of top 15, while having mostly even and possibly 4 good ones (if you think ness, also bayo is unknown mu atm). Anything close to that mu spread is not mid tier though. Diddy is the biggest hnnng though.
Nah, what you said definitely holds water. I play against a pretty good Link main, and the matchup definitely isn't free. Villager isn't even (and i'm sure Cosmos feels that way after his recent match with BC, haha). I don't think DDD's that easy either, and a few of the 6-4s could easily be 55-45s as well. Corrin imo, is a character that doesn't really lose to anyone, but she doesn't destroy characters either. Most of the characters in this game have a shot at beating her and vice versa.
I kinda second the notion personally, the only Mu I really find really annoying is diddy, but thinks like sonic sheik, and fox have been manageable. Vice versa she doesn't really crush anyone too much except certain low tier floaties... she is very good vs floaties. Also for good mu's I stand by Rosa probably being a good one just because luma doesn't pose much threat unless we are backed into a corner. Ryu is one I personally have allot of practice and we can zone him out as long as we are wary and don't overextend to get focused. Ness is probs a best relevant character mu and I view T-ink as even because if we get to him its hard for him to get away, but getting to him is the thing... god bless our dash to shield though. Also mario slight adv.
I find Diddy closer to even. I can even make a case that pre-patch Bayonetta is even, assuming you don't jump into aerial Side-B, B-air at the wrong moment and overextend your strings (hell, our N-air clanks with her Smash attacks, LOL). We punish her grounded Side B hard and she can't really do much when we Shield her BS accordingly. You can B-air her Side-B if she doesn't recover low for an early-ish kill (70-90% near the edge). Correct me if I'm wrong, but we might even be able to punish her low recoveries with Counter or D-air. Literally never tried that. and keep in mind, this is all assuming pre-patch Bayonetta. Sonic and Diddy Kong were arguably her worst MU's, but that didn't mean she couldn't 0-death them (assuming you make a case on that, as to why Corrin would lose). New Bayonetta sounds like an easy +1. also, FH F-air to stuff.I mean for wining Mu's i'd say Ness, probs slight on mario, Ryu is very likely, and possibly rosa. I explain rosa and Ryu though. For ryu he can't force our approach, and he can't break our zone easily. If we watch for focus and don't overextend our juggles we do very good in this Mu. Also near kill percent Ryu recover is free for Corrin. Counter either of them and he's dead. Rosa we can pick luma off easily, cloud also has been shown to be able to do this, and Corrin's disjoints will probably do just as well. Also Cosmos Has a mu chart, It's not that over bias imho.... pre 1.16, post 1.15. I mean saying we have disadvantageous mu's vs 4 out of top 15, while having mostly even and possibly 4 good ones (if you think ness, also bayo is unknown mu atm). Anything close to that mu spread is not mid tier though. Diddy is the biggest hnnng though.
Rosalina looks like a +1, without even giving much thought to it. Our moveset is pretty well built to deal with Luma. We TIPPER (Instant Pin, anyone?), F-air string her and I've even managed to spike Luma with D-air just the other day. We might come across as gimpable, but mixing our trajectory is a huuuuuuuge deal. Not to mention we can look to Counter D-air at some point. Rosalina's huge. and as such, she falls victim to stuff like FH F-air (which is lit in this specific MU) to U-air (kills at about 100 before rage) or even Side-B TIPPER. The hardest part in this MU was probably trying to land. I mixed it up by DI'ing away, B-air (extra push) and sometimes even D-air her between hitboxes. If you're ballsy, Counter. You can also aim to catch her recovery, either by Instant Pinning towards the edge, TIPPER 2-frames and maybe even D-air'ing her.
I was thinking about this the other day while watching Lordmix vs Vinnie. Counter is one obvious option but I dunno if it would send a jabbing Luma into knockback, and Corrin being entirely intangible throughout the animation leaves little room for punishment by Rosalina.
Lavani
likely knows how Luma's jab works so could shed more light on if what I suggested works or not.
oh damn we gotta celebrity in da house... keep up the good work man your frame data site is the best... also question while your here have you ever thought to add the base shield safety of moves to you frame data charts? Likely your probably have and if so what is your reason for omitting them? I think it would be useful to have them there with the rest of the frame data.Corrin is broken
I assumed
C0rvus
was referring to that one setup where Luma is spinning above the ledge, covering ledge getup, attack and jump while Rosa covers ledge roll. Lordmix was trapped on the ledge for a while and trying to swat Luma away with fair wasn't working. The above is also hella useful to know though so thanks! The sequence I mentioned would actually burn your double jump since you're dropping from the ledge and then doing rising DL, making it an even more risky option to get past the spinning Luma setup...so yeah
Oh, I read that as doing ledge drop>wall stick DL>jump for better position and to save double jump. Which I just tried in training, and it isn't as slow as I thought. Seems viable for getting over Luma if you're able to pin the wall on the stage.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I did at one point.
