Is bowser S tier?

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#1
At TAS levels, is bowser S tier?

He can edge guard any character from any % with his endless edgeguarding tools, and up B escapes pressure and with good careful neutral, you just have to push them to the ledge and then edge guard win them. Lets discuss this.
 

Shellfire

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#3
You're not gonna get much discussion with that b8 title. Most people are going to dismiss you as some troll or scrub asking if he's S tier in an actual game.

Anyway, at a TAS level the majority of the cast become a brick wall that blocks the ledge. It isn't anything unique to Bowser.
 
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#4
But with the use of armour, up B, and command grab, its just a matter of using the right move at the right time. I am not baiting anyone, i am being serious. Bowser has unique escape options and tools that over ride other character tools.
 

Salty Sam

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#5
Bowser is way to slow to actually be considered S tier. He might be good at ledge guards, but ledge guards don't matter if you can't get opponents off stage because you're combo food. Ultimately, I'd just have to say Boswer is to big and slow go be considered that high up in the tier list as anyone with projectiles can just camp him and get an easy kill after Boswer slips up. Even without projectiles, characters faster than him can get in between blows to punish him. I'm basing this off playing everyday with a decent Bowser main and she is by no means bad, I just feel most match ups are weighted against Bowser's favor so I usually win.
 
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shairn

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#7
TAS is basically chess. If both opponents are TAS, then the characters used become more or less irrelevant.
 

Shellfire

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#8
It's very much relevant. If everyone is perfect, then the character chosen is the only variable left to decide the match.
 
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shairn

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#9
When you're playing a human, yes, the character with the safest options and able to cover the most options in tech chase/ledge guard situations is objectively the better choice. But in a TAS, you don't have to cover options, because you can just pick the move to counter whatever's coming, so your character choice is irrelevant because there is no 100% guaranteed win sequence of button presses regardless of your character choice.

Assuming "perfect", in-person play, Bowser doesn't even get to hit the other character at all for the most part so whatever he can do off-stage or on the ledge is moot. UpB is awesome, but still can't escape the best pressure in the game. Bowser's neutral game is abysmal and crouch armor doesn't do enough to mitigate his size, speed and laughably slow aerials. A perfect Falcon will DD you for 8 mins and win because he'll late-knee your shield and jab you once.
 
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#10
When you're playing a human, yes, the character with the safest options and able to cover the most options in tech chase/ledge guard situations is objectively the better choice. But in a TAS, you don't have to cover options, because you can just pick the move to counter whatever's coming, so your character choice is irrelevant because there is no 100% guaranteed win sequence of button presses regardless of your character choice.

Assuming "perfect", in-person play, Bowser doesn't even get to hit the other character at all for the most part so whatever he can do off-stage or on the ledge is moot. UpB is awesome, but still can't escape the best pressure in the game. Bowser's neutral game is abysmal and crouch armor doesn't do enough to mitigate his size, speed and laughably slow aerials. A perfect Falcon will DD you for 8 mins and win because he'll late-knee your shield and jab you once.
Am i the only that fire breaths the hell out of DD happy *insert character here* and i honestly dont ever have problems with projectiles (even samus platform camping and diddy stuff). Up B really DOES escape most pressure right to the ledge, and then you just use your ledge options and get back on (bowsers style is respect it or get hit)
 

Shellfire

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#12
Throwing all of this out of the window, bowser just doesn't have anything in his kit that instantly beats any possible option. This is the reason Fox and Falco are by far the best characters in a Melee TAS scenario. Absolutely nothing beats shine because it both puts out a hitbox and gives intangibility on frame one.
 

shairn

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#14
What I'm getting at is Bowser can not approach and has a terrible neutral game. Any player that knows to simply wait and bait Bowser already puts the odds overwhelmingly in their favor. Bowser can hardly punish whiffed moves, and his best option is to simply hope you can call out someone's weak aerial or whatever with DA. Flame breath can't convert into anything. Unless you have really good positioning, upB OoS can only reset the situation. Maybe you can UpB OoS to 200% and close out the stock with that...

Like yeah you can crawl/crouch forward to negate the effect of weaker aerials up to a point, but the more damage you have the less this is effective. Plus it's super slow so it's not like your opponent doesn't have all the time in the world to react to it and adapt their strategy. At high percents, the crouch/crawl armor is completely useless.

Bowser wins when you come at him inefficiently, and he wins pretty hard in those cases which can lead to the misconception that Bowser is pretty good. Yeah his combo game is pretty good, although he doesn't necessarily string long combos but they do their job very well, his edgeguarding is stellar and his kill potential is off the charts. But he is held back by the simple fact that putting any of this into use requires either a strong prediction of your opponent or someone mistakenly rushing in or not playing the MU right. Without any of that, you're going to have the worse time of your life struggling to land anything on a competent Falcon/Fox/Falco/anybody with a strong neutral, no matter how many years you spend practicing the 108 guaranteed methods of edgeguarding them.

Which isn't to say you can't win against them, it's within the realm of possibility. But it's such a steep hill to climb and the challenge has nothing to do with what Bowser does to other characters, but how he can get them to let him do it to them.
 

tasteless gentleman

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#15
What I'm getting at is Bowser can not approach and has a terrible neutral game. Any player that knows to simply wait and bait Bowser already puts the odds overwhelmingly in their favor. Bowser can hardly punish whiffed moves, and his best option is to simply hope you can call out someone's weak aerial or whatever with DA. Flame breath can't convert into anything. Unless you have really good positioning, upB OoS can only reset the situation. Maybe you can UpB OoS to 200% and close out the stock with that...

Like yeah you can crawl/crouch forward to negate the effect of weaker aerials up to a point, but the more damage you have the less this is effective. Plus it's super slow so it's not like your opponent doesn't have all the time in the world to react to it and adapt their strategy. At high percents, the crouch/crawl armor is completely useless.

Bowser wins when you come at him inefficiently, and he wins pretty hard in those cases which can lead to the misconception that Bowser is pretty good. Yeah his combo game is pretty good, although he doesn't necessarily string long combos but they do their job very well, his edgeguarding is stellar and his kill potential is off the charts. But he is held back by the simple fact that putting any of this into use requires either a strong prediction of your opponent or someone mistakenly rushing in or not playing the MU right. Without any of that, you're going to have the worse time of your life struggling to land anything on a competent Falcon/Fox/Falco/anybody with a strong neutral, no matter how many years you spend practicing the 108 guaranteed methods of edgeguarding them.

Which isn't to say you can't win against them, it's within the realm of possibility. But it's such a steep hill to climb and the challenge has nothing to do with what Bowser does to other characters, but how he can get them to let him do it to them.
I have not checked this thread in forever, but im currently on a 3 tourny win streak, so ill just have to take your word on it. You approach with fire breath and proper shielding. I dont really care about arguing how bowser is good, i show it now.
 

shairn

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#16
Where do you play? Are these recorded anywhere? I'd be interested in looking at footage of your Bowser.
 

tasteless gentleman

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#17
Not recorded, Pm is too dead to get any hype over melee, but the NKY/Cincy scene is where i play. Honestly all it is according to anyone i won against is "schticky ledge abuse and flame baiting".
 

Keman

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#18
I had always wondered about good tourney players in the KY area. Now I find out its Tasteless Gentlemen and flash backs of the tier list thread go rolling through my mind...

Anyway wouldn't at the TAS level a character with better Frame data for the most part be better? Couldn't shine or Luigi nair or whatever react to a slower characters Start up frames?
 

tasteless gentleman

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#19
I had always wondered about good tourney players in the KY area. Now I find out its Tasteless Gentlemen and flash backs of the tier list thread go rolling through my mind...

Anyway wouldn't at the TAS level a character with better Frame data for the most part be better? Couldn't shine or Luigi nair or whatever react to a slower characters Start up frames?
Armour beats out the shines and nairs in question and once bowser bops anyone to the ledge (hes basically fox, the only way you are coming back is if bowser messed up). And I am not super amazing, i just abuse a neutral game of approaching flames and shielding while always pushing forward, but ill take sets from matches i "shouldn't have won against".
 
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