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Is Bayonetta still broken?

Does Bayonetta need another nerf?


  • Total voters
    77

Bowserboy3

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Being bull crap is not a good thing.
There's a difference though in being "bullcrap" and "broken".

Broken is more along the lines of Meta Knight, where the character had tools and options that beat literally every character in the game. No other character could outright contest him correctly. This was only backed up by the fact he dominated tournament top spots at every event.

Bayonetta may have some "bullcrap" things in her toolkit, but nothing in her kit outright nullifies every character in the game; there are more than enough characters in the game that can deal with her effectively. This point is also backed up by her lack of ability to populate the top spots of every tournament. IIRC, for the sake of argument, Smash Con had 2 Bayo's in top 16, 4 in top 32. Diddy, by comparison, had 6 in top 16, and 10 in top 32. See what I mean? It's a far cry from Apex 2013 Brawl for example; Meta Knight in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th (twice) etc, etc. In short, bullcrap is not fun to play against, but it's okay in a sense because it's more than beatable.

Perhaps it's because I come from a different era of Smash first and foremost, perhaps it's because I grew up with Brawl and played game with a REAL broken character that I see things differently in Smash 4.
 

Hydgen

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I could write a 20 page essay about why Bayonetta is bull crap still after 1.1.6...But in short, she is like a Marvel vs Capcom character, in smash.

That's not a good thing
Try rejoining this discussion after the salt clears from your head.

:?:

:4bayonetta2: is not bullcrap, she has lots of weaknesses that can be exploited. We talked about said weaknesses earlier in the thread.

That sometimes can be a good thing, but it depends how much you know the matchup and if you know how to DI and SDI her moves correctly.

The only thing that's bullcrap is my jokes.

Cya :starman:
 
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MERPIS

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Try rejoining this discussion after the salt clears from your head.

:?:

:4bayonetta2: is not bullcrap, she has lots of weaknesses that can be exploited. We talked about said weaknesses earlier in the thread.

That sometimes can be a good thing, but it depends how much you know the matchup and if you know how to DI and SDI her moves correctly.

The only thing that's bullcrap is my jokes.

Cya :starman:
how to tell a bayo main from a smash player.
Found one.
 

Bowserboy3

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then why are you defending the bull crap?
Because people can turn the blinkers off and see things as a whole rather than in a vaccum.

Why do you think Bayonetta isn't winning every single tournament, give or take the occasional one or two?

Why do you think Bayonetta isn't overly populating the top spots in tournament (you could even ask yourself why there are more of other characters like Cloud and Diddy)?

Why haven't all top players switched to Bayonetta, or all have a secondary Bayonetta, like again, Meta Knight in Brawl?

Nobody is defending the fact that Bayonetta has absolute bonkers things in her kit, we all know that. What people are saying though, is that SHE DOES INDEED HAVE WEAKNESSES THAT CAN BE EASILY EXPLOITED. Yes. she's amazing, very likely the best in the game, but amongst all that craziness lies the ability to be more than feasibly beaten. And this point is only backed up by all the questions I posed above.

Bayonetta forces players to learn to actually play the game more than any other character. Just because she does this it doesn't mean that she is broken, especially when "playing the game" against her works more than against traditional characters like ZSS for example. Correct SDI and DI will outright save you from Bayonetta combos for example; you can prevent her from doing what she wants. In comparison, vs ZSS, you just have to mix up some DI and hope that the ZSS screws up. In short, you can't outright prevent things happening by your own hands.

That's real bullcrap.
 
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Hydgen

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then why are you defending the bull crap?
I believe that people just like to complain about :4bayonetta2:, instead of learning the matchup.

:?:
She isn't that good, you have a few good players like Salem and CaptainZack, but she has lots of flaws which can be taken advantage of. Although I don't main the character, I now alot about the her. I have fought a ton of :4bayonetta2:s on For Glory, and watched some matches with her in. She isn't bullcrap, learn the matchup.

Cya :starman:
 

MercuryPenny

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Why do you think Bayonetta isn't winning every single tournament, give or take the occasional one or two?

Why do you think Bayonetta isn't overly populating the top spots in tournament (you could even ask yourself why there are more of other characters like Cloud and Diddy)?

Why haven't all top players switched to Bayonetta, or all have a secondary Bayonetta, like again, Meta Knight in Brawl?
bayonetta is in a somewhat similar position to jigglypuff in melee - most people simply don't enjoy playing as her, and don't want to be associated with the stigma that comes with playing her. she's an amazing character, easily the best in the game, and is the hardest to counterplay, but the fact is that not that many people WANT to play her because she doesn't meld well with their respective playstyles and there's a lot of negative connotations with being a "bayonetta player" that few want to deal with.

meanwhile, cloud's a bit of a blank slate who can be played pretty much however you want as long as you don't end up offstage, and diddy kong being erratic and aggressive is reminiscent of melee fox (who is the most popular character in that game for reasons alongside being the best in the game). bayonetta is in kind of an awkward position of being straight-up the best character but having attributes that make her unpopular to play as well as fight and to some people, watch. will that change in the future? could be, but that depends on an influx of players who not only enjoy playing her but don't mind getting insults thrown at them everywhere they go.
 

Dawn111

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I don't play Bayonetta, and I know that it's a cliche to say this, but to be honest, it's always better to learn how to play the matchup against her rather than keep asking for nerfs of her, and she already got nerfed after the patch 1.1.6. She still has some of the best combos in the game, but they are escapable using DI correctly. Her neutrals aren't that amazing, and characters like Corrin have neutrals that outranges Bayonetta if Corrin gets to space properly. I think Bayonetta is still the best character in the game, but like every character, she does have weaknesses, and you still need to master her in order to do well with her. It's not like there's that many Bayonetta players who get top places in the tournaments. Salem had gotten 1st place at EVO, because he's just THAT good.
 
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MERPIS

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I believe that people just like to complain about :4bayonetta2:, instead of learning the matchup.

:?:
She isn't that good, you have a few good players like Salem and CaptainZack, but she has lots of flaws which can be taken advantage of. Although I don't main the character, I now alot about the her. I have fought a ton of :4bayonetta2:s on For Glory, and watched some matches with her in. She isn't bullcrap, learn the matchup.

Cya :starman:
I didn't want to turn things toxic, but your little remarks and emoji things here are really pushing me.

As for the "bayo aint that bad guise" crap, more and more top players are turning to bayo now. Leo wants to main her ever since he got beat by a DK main, Zero wanted to main her back in june since his diddy got beat. Abadango usually uses bayo now since, from what I read and heard, he doesnt have faith in mewtwo, which makes me laugh since Wadi is so much better in a lot of MUs than abadango is. I wouldnt be surprised if most or all of the top 10 players use bayonetta in the future. She is like a disease who is spreading from top player to top player. Ally is salty over bayo, his twitter shows him cheering for esam to knock mistake out of a tournament.

And larry even posted this
 
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Bowserboy3

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I didn't want to turn things toxic, but your little remarks and emoji things here are really pushing me.

As for the "bayo aint that bad guise" crap, more and more top players are turning to bayo now. Leo wants to main her ever since he got beat by a DK main, Zero wanted to main her back in june since his diddy got beat. Abadango usually uses bayo now since, from what I read and heard, he doesnt have faith in mewtwo, which makes me laugh since Wadi is so much better in a lot of MUs than abadango is. I wouldnt be surprised if most or all of the top 10 players use bayonetta in the future. She is like a disease who is spreading from top player to top player. Ally is salty over bayo, his twitter shows him cheering for esam to knock mistake out of a tournament.

And larry even posted this
If you really believe Leo saying he wanted to main Bayonetta then there's no reasoning with you. It was salt, the same salt that got to ZeRo when he said he was picking up Bayonetta.

Guess what? It never happened.

Abadango uses Bayonetta more now, but also guess what? Strangely, his results are worse! Possibly because he is better with other characters and that Bayonetta isn't so broken that she doesn't carry players 100%?

Stop theorycrafting with "I wouldn't be suprised if all of the top 10 players used Bayonetta in the future" and face the facts in your face right now; Bayonetta isn't winning everything, she isn't overly dominating in the meta, and there's very noticeable counterplay to her.
 

NeverKillAgain

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I believe that people just like to complain about :4bayonetta2:, instead of learning the matchup.

:?:
She isn't that good, you have a few good players like Salem and CaptainZack, but she has lots of flaws which can be taken advantage of. Although I don't main the character, I now alot about the her. I have fought a ton of :4bayonetta2:s on For Glory, and watched some matches with her in. She isn't bullcrap, learn the matchup.

Cya :starman:
>Best character in Sm4sh
>Not that good. LMAO.
EVERY character has weaknesses. Cloud's recovery is trash, but he's still high tier. Quit making invalid points. I could provide weaknesses for the top 20 characters, hell, the whole cast if I wanted to.
 

MERPIS

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If you really believe Leo saying he wanted to main Bayonetta then there's no reasoning with you. It was salt, the same salt that got to ZeRo when he said he was picking up Bayonetta.

Guess what? It never happened.

Abadango uses Bayonetta more now, but also guess what? Strangely, his results are worse! Possibly because he is better with other characters and that Bayonetta isn't so broken that she doesn't carry players 100%?

Stop theorycrafting with "I wouldn't be suprised if all of the top 10 players used Bayonetta in the future" and face the facts in your face right now; Bayonetta isn't winning everything, she isn't overly dominating in the meta, and there's very noticeable counterplay to her.
Jesus h and I thought I was toxic.
So do you think every body's main change after they got beat was just salt and purely salt alone? You can be as delusional as you please, first with your Marth biz and now with your Bayonetta biz
 
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DMan64

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To be the middle man here, yeah she's bull crap, but so are other characters in the game(Cloud, Diddy, Rosa, etc.), it's just that Bayonetta's the most apparent and easiest to point to given her stigma. But that said, bull crap in this game, doesn't mean unbeatable. If that were the case, then this conversation would be completely different and there wouldn't be a split. People usually say, "Smash 4 is Jank." And there not wrong. Going from one janky character to another, look at Cloud. He is undoubtedly the simplest, yet one of the most effective, character in the game, with elements that a character of his type probably shouldn't have. That said, he's still beatable and has his key weaknesses.

Do some of these "bull crap characters" deserve to have some elements toned down, or some weaknesses more exploitable, probably, but at the end of the day, your still going to have that one good character that everyone complains about, it happened with Diddy(though that was deserved), it happened with Sheik, it was Cloud for a good bit, but now it's Bayonetta. Ultimately you can't stop a character/characters from standing above the rest, that's how competitive games work.

On the subject of comparing her to Melee Fox or Brawl Meta Knight, I see Bayonetta in a middle ground between the two. Like Brawl Meta Knight, Bayonetta has tons of ridiculous options that are either
A)incapable of performing among the large majority of the cast.
B)incredibly difficult to counter-act and are arguably completely bull-crap.
Thus, for many lower tiered characters, even as high as high tier even, Bayonetta has a relatively insane match-up spread.

However, unlike Brawl Meta Knight where he had almost no bad options and VERY FEW weakness to exploit, Bayo still has weakness to exploit and does require effort at top level play. In that regard she's comparable to Melee Fox, who despite being the best character in the game, was also the most technical and demanded that you know not only the fundamentals of the game, but the technicalities of the character.

Not to mention, even if she isn't considered the best edge guarder or have the best recovery, there still among the best in the game and similar to Melee Fox, she combines all of these aspects the best out of all the characters in the game.
Fox may not have been the fastest ground character, or have the longest wavedash, but they were both still great and they worked better in tandem when compared to other characters, and when combined the the utility of his moveset, made him the best character in the game. Just like Fox as well, Bayonetta's match-up spread, while amazing for her, isn't total wins, despite being filled with many winning matchups, she does have a few fifty-fifty match-ups(Personally I think she has more 50/50s than people give her credit for.)

In short, she's bull crap, but in a game with a lot of bull crap characters and elements, she's just the best.
 

ぱみゅ

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Jesus h and I thought I was toxic.
So do you think every body's main change after they got beat was just salt and purely salt alone? You can be as delusional as you please, first with your Marth biz and now with your Bayonetta biz
Bottom line is that neither Leo nor ZeRo ended up actually changing characters. They might have tried Bayo themselves but currently they do not use her for any serious set.

Also, I highly recommend you to watch Larry's video to the end and paying attention to everything he said.
:196:
 

Hydgen

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I didn't want to turn things toxic, but your little remarks and emoji things here are really pushing me.

As for the "bayo aint that bad guise" crap, more and more top players are turning to bayo now. Leo wants to main her ever since he got beat by a DK main, Zero wanted to main her back in june since his diddy got beat. Abadango usually uses bayo now since, from what I read and heard, he doesnt have faith in mewtwo, which makes me laugh since Wadi is so much better in a lot of MUs than abadango is. I wouldnt be surprised if most or all of the top 10 players use bayonetta in the future. She is like a disease who is spreading from top player to top player. Ally is salty over bayo, his twitter shows him cheering for esam to knock mistake out of a tournament.

And larry even posted this
I like the little emoji things. :happysheep:

:?:
It would be nice if you could calm down, and refraim from comparing :4bayonetta2: to a "disease," (you might offend some smashers.)

Even Larry Lurr:4fox: said in his video that only a few players are getting good placings in tournaments with :4bayonetta2:. We wrote a lot more about her weaknesses and other stuff earlier in the thread, I could put that stuff here, but I am too lazy:tired: to do it.


MERPIS MERPIS you seem like a cool guy. :ness:

Cya :starman:
 
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NeverKillAgain

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I like the little emoji things. :happysheep:

:?:
It would be nice if you could calm down, and refraim from comparing :4bayonetta2: to a "disease," (you might offend some smashers.)

Even Larry Lurr:4fox: said in his video that only a few players are getting good placings in tournaments with :4bayonetta2:. We wrote a lot more about her weaknesses and other stuff earlier in the thread, I could put that stuff here, but I am too lazy:tired: to do it.


MERPIS MERPIS you seem like a cool guy. :ness:

Cya :starman:
As I said before, every character has weaknesses. Some have more than others, while also have less advantages, which makes them low tier. Take Jigglypuff for example. She hasn't gotten A SINGLE patch change, nerf or buff, besides the removal of one of her only advanced techs.

i cri:sadsheep:

P.S. Bet you had never heard of CaptainZack before he started playing Bayo
 
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DMan64

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I can understand comparing Bayonetta to a disease, frankly just because of how much hate she can generate.

Let's put it bluntly; she is the most HATED character in the game for a multitude of reasons, with Cloud and Sonic not to far behind. As for the argument that she "isn't that good", well that's just frankly wrong, despite her in my opinion being somewhat overrated and she has more 50/50s, though that's not saying to much in a game with such a large cast. The fact that you have to fight her in a specific way compared to other characters, and that fact that she is ironically hard to punish, despite that being a key weakness the developers put in, given that players have ways around said weakness, makes her genuinely infuriating to fight against, since you can't do things that work on literally every other character in the game, for risk of over extending, it's only guaranteed things that work pretty much, and very careful reads. Many people I'm pretty sure want her nowhere close to the next game, and in many regards, she really does feel like a Marvel character in Smash.

Even Cloud, as basic and ridiculous as he is, is still pretty much fought like other swordsman, and he has more key weaknesses that, while they can be worked around, are still heavily exploitable.
It doesn't help that Bayo's also pretty much the only character in the game where SDI is practically REQUIRED if you want to have a decent chance, and even then if the player reads that, Bayo can continue to rack up damage if she get's a good read. Bayo's weaknesses, while exploitable, are still easily able to be worked around, and even then she is such a hard character to fight against that more often than not, it doesn't feel worth it.

Plus we should also consider the possible psychology to it.
1)She Won the Smash Ballot: Like it or not, she won the Smash Ballot, but even then, her inclusion was just as divided as Corrin's at her release. Corrin at least made more sense, given she/he was a Nintendo character and a character used to promote a new entree in a long running series that had started to gain way more attention(You could argue, why not Inkling then, remember, Splatoon at that point in time was brand new and hadn't really been established by the time Corrin began development). Plus we can assume that the ballot likely only had one winner, that said, for that winner to be a character that frankly, not many people thought it could be/ who it should've been, may have something to do with it, not the main cause, but something to consider that generally, there were many people that didn't want/care for these characters.

2)People Hate Feeling Helpless: This is something quite a few characters in this game are good at, but Bayo not only does that, but she makes you feel like crap, simply because a character with a built in weakness, is ironically hard to punish and has a few ways around her key weakness. As such she does such a good job at not only getting her way a lot, but she's also the best character at making sure you can't get your way.

3)People Hate when Other's "Get it Easy": This ones a bit odd, but it has some merit. Compare Bayo to Sheik, both are clearly Top Tiers, but Sheik is one of the most technical characters in the game and requires MUCH MORE effort to play effectively than many of the other top tiers. Now compare this to Bayo, who is able to perform these deadly combos with relative ease, and only has to worry about DI and SDI, as apposed to messing up timing,spacing,pivoting, inputs, etc. Cloud is definitely the worst offender, given that he's one of the best characters in the game, and he require's little effort to pick up and do well with. One of the reasons why people don't mind Fox being the best in Melee, may be due to the fact that he is an extremely technical character, and one miss input can severely screw you over. With Bayo, while she is harder to play than some of the other top tiers, comparatively speaking, there are many other characters in the game that require more effort than her.

Comparing Bayo to a disease, well, I can understand the justification, but I also don't think that it's healthy for this community as it can become something far worse. All we can do is offer our own point of view, and hope that one day, we can move past this. As it stands though, if she does make it into the next iteration of Smash(which if I'm being honest, I really hope she doesn't), or we somehow get a new patch, she will most likely be drastically toned down due to the hate that surrounds her.
 

SN Kurse

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Is the character good? Absolutely. You can't deny that. Broken? Absolutely not.


I feel a large chunk of the issue here is people aren't stopping to actually consider what has been happening with the top level:4bayonetta2:s - they actually work together and help each other to get better. All of the top level Bayos are insanely good about helping and working with the others to better themselves. Honestly, it's refreshing to see. There's no hatred or animosity between them and they've all clearly made significant leaps in skill to get to where they are now.

Now I'm not going to say that this alone is why they're at the top. The character herself is clearly very good which certainly helps. At times it seems to me like some people go about the matchups horribly wrong. But being IN the match and viewing the match are two completely different experiences.

End of the day, she's still one of, if not the best in the game. But she's not a completely unbeatable force like some people like to complain about. Just learn the match up and get better instead of complaining about uncontrollable factors being the reason you lost. Just look at Tweek and how efficiently he's able to beat Bayonetta. Yes, he is also playing a high tier character, but he clearly has sat down and figured out the matchup.
 

BarSoapSoup

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NeverKillAgain

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I can understand comparing Bayonetta to a disease, frankly just because of how much hate she can generate.

Let's put it bluntly; she is the most HATED character in the game for a multitude of reasons, with Cloud and Sonic not to far behind. As for the argument that she "isn't that good", well that's just frankly wrong, despite her in my opinion being somewhat overrated and she has more 50/50s, though that's not saying to much in a game with such a large cast. The fact that you have to fight her in a specific way compared to other characters, and that fact that she is ironically hard to punish, despite that being a key weakness the developers put in, given that players have ways around said weakness, makes her genuinely infuriating to fight against, since you can't do things that work on literally every other character in the game, for risk of over extending, it's only guaranteed things that work pretty much, and very careful reads. Many people I'm pretty sure want her nowhere close to the next game, and in many regards, she really does feel like a Marvel character in Smash.

Even Cloud, as basic and ridiculous as he is, is still pretty much fought like other swordsman, and he has more key weaknesses that, while they can be worked around, are still heavily exploitable.
It doesn't help that Bayo's also pretty much the only character in the game where SDI is practically REQUIRED if you want to have a decent chance, and even then if the player reads that, Bayo can continue to rack up damage if she get's a good read. Bayo's weaknesses, while exploitable, are still easily able to be worked around, and even then she is such a hard character to fight against that more often than not, it doesn't feel worth it.

Plus we should also consider the possible psychology to it.
1)She Won the Smash Ballot: Like it or not, she won the Smash Ballot, but even then, her inclusion was just as divided as Corrin's at her release. Corrin at least made more sense, given she/he was a Nintendo character and a character used to promote a new entree in a long running series that had started to gain way more attention(You could argue, why not Inkling then, remember, Splatoon at that point in time was brand new and hadn't really been established by the time Corrin began development). Plus we can assume that the ballot likely only had one winner, that said, for that winner to be a character that frankly, not many people thought it could be/ who it should've been, may have something to do with it, not the main cause, but something to consider that generally, there were many people that didn't want/care for these characters.

2)People Hate Feeling Helpless: This is something quite a few characters in this game are good at, but Bayo not only does that, but she makes you feel like crap, simply because a character with a built in weakness, is ironically hard to punish and has a few ways around her key weakness. As such she does such a good job at not only getting her way a lot, but she's also the best character at making sure you can't get your way.

3)People Hate when Other's "Get it Easy": This ones a bit odd, but it has some merit. Compare Bayo to Sheik, both are clearly Top Tiers, but Sheik is one of the most technical characters in the game and requires MUCH MORE effort to play effectively than many of the other top tiers. Now compare this to Bayo, who is able to perform these deadly combos with relative ease, and only has to worry about DI and SDI, as apposed to messing up timing,spacing,pivoting, inputs, etc. Cloud is definitely the worst offender, given that he's one of the best characters in the game, and he require's little effort to pick up and do well with. One of the reasons why people don't mind Fox being the best in Melee, may be due to the fact that he is an extremely technical character, and one miss input can severely screw you over. With Bayo, while she is harder to play than some of the other top tiers, comparatively speaking, there are many other characters in the game that require more effort than her.

Comparing Bayo to a disease, well, I can understand the justification, but I also don't think that it's healthy for this community as it can become something far worse. All we can do is offer our own point of view, and hope that one day, we can move past this. As it stands though, if she does make it into the next iteration of Smash(which if I'm being honest, I really hope she doesn't), or we somehow get a new patch, she will most likely be drastically toned down due to the hate that surrounds her.
Akchually...

Bayo did not win the U.S. ballot. She won the Euro ballot. I think Goku won the U.S. ballot. As a DBZ fan myself, I would've loved that. Of course, he's not a "realizable character". This is why I'm not a big fan of Sakurai. He doesn't care about what the fans want, ESPECIALLY not competitively. He puts Lucina in because "Chrom would be too similar to Marth". Absolute f***ing bull.

Sm4sh isn't even a good game casually. SSB64 is the best casually because it was the simplest, most basic, and most fun. It had jazzy music and so much jank that having fun doing BS just came naturally. We need SSB64 HD.

Dammit Sakurai.

(P.S. How do you make your own threads?)
 
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MERPIS

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Akchually...

Bayo did not win the U.S. ballot. She won the Euro ballot. I think Goku won the U.S. ballot. As a DBZ fan myself, I would've loved that. Of course, he's not a "realizable character". This is why I'm not a big fan of Sakurai. He doesn't care about what the fans want, ESPECIALLY not competitively. He puts Lucina in because "Chrom would be too similar to Marth". Absolute f***ing bull.

Sm4sh isn't even a good game casually. SSB64 is the best casually because it was the simplest, most basic, and most fun. It had jazzy music and so much jank that having fun doing BS just came naturally. We need SSB64 HD.

Dammit Sakurai.

(P.S. How do you make your own threads?)
Goku belongs in smash about as much as Shrek or Call of Duty guy.

Not at all.
 
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Metallinatus

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Bayo did not win the U.S. ballot. She won the Euro ballot. I think Goku won the U.S. ballot. As a DBZ fan myself, I would've loved that. Of course, he's not a "realizable character". This is why I'm not a big fan of Sakurai. He doesn't care about what the fans want, ESPECIALLY not competitively. He puts Lucina in because "Chrom would be too similar to Marth". Absolute f***ing bull.

Sm4sh isn't even a good game casually. SSB64 is the best casually because it was the simplest, most basic, and most fun. It had jazzy music and so much jank that having fun doing BS just came naturally. We need SSB64 HD.
Bayo won in Europe and in the total worldwide data too.
You shouldn't even be having third party characters, you speak greatly of Smash 64, but that game set the tone very well as the NINTENDO FIGHTER for NINTENDO characters ONLY, but Brawl screwed this all up with one of the most annoying characters ever and one that belongs in Smash as much as Call of Duty guy, and you say Sakurai doesn't care about fans? This should be a N I N T E N D O F I G H T E R, putting Sonic in was more fan service than Sakurai should have ever done.
The inclusion of Lucina has nothing to do with the inclusion or exclusion of Chrom. Sakurai said he didn't include Chrom because he would be too similar to IKE, not Marth, and Lucina was going to be an alt for Marth at first, but there is no "We put Lucina in because Chrom would be just a clone" in that story.
Also, your problem is not even "Sakurai doesn't listen to fans", your problem is "I am the most self centered person in the world and he is a terrible person because he doesn't comply to MY wants and needs".
Have a good night....
 
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Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
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*** TIME FOR A PSA ON HOW LUCINA GOT INTO SMASH 4 (HINT: It's nothing to do with Chrom!) ***

Sakurai wanted a real FE newcomer for Smash 4. Chrom was omitted, yes, for the reason he'd be too similar to Marth.

However, because of this, we got Robin, not Lucina. Robin was confirmed in the early stages of development after he decided against Chrom ; he is the true FE newcomer for Smash 4.

Then, during development, it was decided that Lucina would be put in the game, not as a newcomer, but as a costume swap for Marth.

But at a further stage in development, somebody suggested that they separate them and make Lucina a clone of Marth, due to her minor height difference. It was this that spawned the concept of her blade being consistent.

Essentially, Lucina is a bonus character; she has no effect on, nor is tied to Chrom being in the game or not.

Yes, some may see it ironic perhaps that she's in the game as a clone, despite Sakurai saying he didn't want another generic swordfighter like Marth in the game. However, you have to understand that all this happened after Sakurai's desire for a unique FE character was fulfilled with Robin. Lucina is literally a bonus. The same story can be said for Dr Mario, who was initially just a costume swap, but was separated so that "fans of him in Melee wouldn't be disappointed", and for Dark Pit.

Infact, Sakurai once commented on this situation. I quote:

Sakurai: "This [the clones being separate] is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared, free of charge".

Essentially he's saying that the clones were separated from being costume swaps after the roster was finalised. They are literally bonuses. It's like Nintendo putting Dry Bowser as a costume swap for Bowser in a sports title, then just separating him into his own character with unique stats later down the line. Literally an unplanned bonus.

You really can't please some fans...

-----

Anyway, Bayonetta thread...

Even if Bayonetta only truly won in Europe, I remind you that the Ballot was a worldwide thing. If her, winning in Europe meant she averaged out near/at the top worldwide, you cannot complain.

There is life outside of the US y'know?

Also, there's no way of knowing who won the ballot in other areas, so saying it was Goku is a lie.
 
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Metallinatus

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 20, 2015
Messages
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He was scrapped for being to similar to Ike, he hints on that in his conversation on the Palutena Guidance thing.
But another thing is, when Sakurai finished Robin; which was probably before making Lucina, it was pretty much set on the stone that there would be no Chrom anymore, as he was used on Robin's Final Smash already by that point.
And if I can recall, it was revealed that Bayo won worldwide, being #1 in Europe and top 5 in each of the other regions.
I also like a "theory" I read some day, which said Sakurai chose Cloud to please the American fans, Kamui to please the Asian fans and Bayonetta to please the European fans....
 

NeverKillAgain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
43
*** TIME FOR A PSA ON HOW LUCINA GOT INTO SMASH 4 (HINT: It's nothing to do with Chrom!) ***

Sakurai wanted a real FE newcomer for Smash 4. Chrom was omitted, yes, for the reason he'd be too similar to Marth.

However, because of this, we got Robin, not Lucina. Robin was confirmed in the early stages of development after he decided against Chrom ; he is the true FE newcomer for Smash 4.

Then, during development, it was decided that Lucina would be put in the game, not as a newcomer, but as a costume swap for Marth.

But at a further stage in development, somebody suggested that they separate them and make Lucina a clone of Marth, due to her minor height difference. It was this that spawned the concept of her blade being consistent.

Essentially, Lucina is a bonus character; she has no effect on, nor is tied to Chrom being in the game or not.

Yes, some may see it ironic perhaps that she's in the game as a clone, despite Sakurai saying he didn't want another generic swordfighter like Marth in the game. However, you have to understand that all this happened after Sakurai's desire for a unique FE character was fulfilled with Robin. Lucina is literally a bonus. The same story can be said for Dr Mario, who was initially just a costume swap, but was separated so that "fans of him in Melee wouldn't be disappointed", and for Dark Pit.

Infact, Sakurai once commented on this situation. I quote:

Sakurai: "This [the clones being separate] is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared, free of charge".

Essentially he's saying that the clones were separated from being costume swaps after the roster was finalised. They are literally bonuses. It's like Nintendo putting Dry Bowser as a costume swap for Bowser in a sports title, then just separating him into his own character with unique stats later down the line. Literally an unplanned bonus.

You really can't please some fans...

-----

Anyway, Bayonetta thread...

Even if Bayonetta only truly won in Europe, I remind you that the Ballot was a worldwide thing. If her, winning in Europe meant she averaged out near/at the top worldwide, you cannot complain.

There is life outside of the US y'know?

Also, there's no way of knowing who won the ballot in other areas, so saying it was Goku is a lie.
I know, but still... Doc is not only a veteran, but has many changes which make him VERY different from Mario. It's not just 1 little tweak.

And yes, I can be pleased. I would be ecstatic if Fox didn't sound so bad... I know it sounds petty, but it's one of the resons why I don't main him. I just can't get past it. Also, his feet are huge.xD

P.S. The Goku thing was a rumor from IntroSpektive. Why couldn't Nintebdo just publish the results? =/
 

Reila

the true enemy of humanity is anime
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As someone who only watches Smash (other than playing casually with a friend), my thoughts on Bayonetta is that her design is "feast or famine". She will either be really good or really bad. There is no middle term. Asking for further nerfs is asking for the character to possible become garbage.

But again, I don't play the game competitively, so feel free to ignore this post.
 

BarSoapSoup

Smash Journeyman
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And yes, I can be pleased. I would be ecstatic if Fox didn't sound so bad... I know it sounds petty, but it's one of the resons why I don't main him. I just can't get past it. Also, his feet are huge.xD
I mean, to be fair, your whole time on here has only been bashing Bayonetta. Then you go and follow up 'I can be pleased' with nitpicking Fox's aesthetics to justify your reason for not maining him. I'm sure there's plenty about the game you're satisfied with, but from what we've seen so far, you aren't the kind of person that seems like they can be wholly satisfied with anything in Smash 4.
 

NeverKillAgain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
43
I mean, to be fair, your whole time on here has only been bashing Bayonetta. Then you go and follow up 'I can be pleased' with nitpicking Fox's aesthetics to justify your reason for not maining him. I'm sure there's plenty about the game you're satisfied with, but from what we've seen so far, you aren't the kind of person that seems like they can be wholly satisfied with anything in Smash 4.
Because I don't like a few things I can't be satisfied? I am wholly satisfied with Greninja and hus design, same for Marth, Ike, Roy, etc. My only TRUE dislikes: Bayo, roll spammers, and Falco's horrible nerfs. i cri

All of these can be EASILY solved: tone down Bayo, give roll less invincibility frames the more you spam it(like move staling), and buff Falco. And Puff, Rest in Peace.... not a single buff since day 1...
 

BarSoapSoup

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Because I don't like a few things I can't be satisfied?
My statement didn't even imply that. I felt I was pretty straightforward in saying that in the little time you have been here it has been doing a limited amount of things which would be more likely to give us the impression that you are generally displeased with most of the things about the game rather than just a few things.
 

NeverKillAgain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
43
My statement didn't even imply that. I felt I was pretty straightforward in saying that in the little time you have been here it has been doing a limited amount of things which would be more likely to give us the impression that you are generally displeased with most of the things about the game rather than just a few things.
Ok. Random words so i don't get banned for micro posting.
 

MERPIS

Smash Lord
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All this talk about her being the true ballot winner is sorta stupid, she is in the game whether you voted for her or not. The problem here is her design is being way too faithful to the original games, to the point of being mostly pure bullcrap that can kill you off of even the simplest mess up and what is required to fight her unless you want to lose horribly.
 

Heart of Ice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
49
She's not broken but I can agree that she might need toned down a bit but only a few things that come to mind. Witch time should have super armor instead of intangibility because all other counters can be punished with grabs. This one shouldn't be different.

Witch time should also be changed so that projectiles cannot be witch timed even if she's close to her opponent.

Getting rid of exploits that allow her to avoid landing lag like using her Nair after a sick combo would also be a good idea as there should be some risk involved with her combos.

You could in theory reduce the distance of her abk, but that might make some combos easier in practice at the cost of her recovery and backfire.

You could also mess with bat within but bat within has some lag at the end so that could also backfire.

Bayonetta is a fun character for me to watch and brings a lot of hype for me. Other than those few suggestions I dunno what you could do that hasn't already been done.
 
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SpeedChamp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
4
As you all know, Bayonetta got a nerf in patch 1.1.6 allowing her insane combos to be escaped using DI. But many people still believe that Bayonetta is OP and that she needs another nerf. I wanted to ask you guys for you thoughts on this subject.
so you are just one of those whiny defenders who complain about other characters but when you are put on the ropes you defend in anyway you can huh
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
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Whilst not being Brawl MK or Melee IC's or Fox, she still has enough unfair advantages over the rest of the cast that I can say she's still broken.

But she shouldn't be banned. As long as she's not vanilla Bayo.
 
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