Is Bayonetta still broken?

[Hydgen]

As you all know, Bayonetta got a nerf in patch 1.1.6 allowing her insane combos to be escaped using DI. But many people still believe that Bayonetta is OP and that she needs another nerf. I wanted to ask you guys for you thoughts on this subject.

 

[Deleted member]

I can understand how my girl is still making players salty but she needs no more nerfs. She is no Brawl and is certainly no Tekken 4 Jin Kazama either. The 1.1.6 patch was adequate enough to put her on a more even playing field. It is not like she has to zero-death players all the time anyway. She could wisely employ Witch Time to set up combos or finishers, or to throw an extra layer of chocolate icing on the cupcake, press her strong edge-guarding game into service to garner her fair share of kills.

Have y'all forgotten Bayo is relatively light with bad frame data on the ground compared to or ? And doesn't she struggle a bit in the neutral like I keep hearing? As with any character, Bayo has her flaws and they're significant enough to render her far from unbeatable.

 

[★ARKZ AGES★]

No. She's not broken. Many have proved time and time again that she can be beaten. EVO and GOML were the first S tier tournaments she ever won as far as I know, and those were mostly because Salem's play is truly insane. More people need to take advantage of her subpar neutral to be honest; everytime I fight a Bayo the neutral becomes predictable, a great deal of the time it degrades into me seeing the flowchart in their head. Another thing I noticed is that shooting nair seems to be like one of her only moves that's SoS. She has to rely on chicken with Witch Time.

Is she the best character in the game? Absolutely.
Is she Brawl MK? Not very close at all.
I'd say Bayonetta is more Melee Fox in a way.

 

[Zerp]

isn't at the level of, or even and , (I don't think she's even the best character in Smash 4) and absolutely should NOT be banned... However, I do think she and certain other characters in this game can go for some more nerfs, she and characters like Cloud and Diddy Kong are simply far too good for us to expect most of the cast to handle them, she has one of the best recoveries in game, easily one of the best edgeguarding games if not THE best, pretty much the best punish game capable of punishing mere pokes in neutral with Witch Time and getting 20% to 40%ish off that , with her only real weaknesses being her landing lag after aerial combos and having a merely above average neutral. If we actually had the power to change the game, I'd say yes, she should be nerfed, although, she shouldn't be the only character nerfed.

 

[HerbsnSpices910]

I'd say Bayonetta is more Melee Fox in a way.

I'd say Cloud is more like Melee Fox, at least in the way he functions as a character.

To answer the question - yes, she should be nerfed. There are other characters that need nerfing as well, but Bayonetta is at the top of the list. Witch Time is just too cruel.

 

[MercuryPenny]

not broken - that implies she doesn't function how she's supposed to.

she IS overpowered, and a nerf to stuff like zss up b kill confirms, rosaluma up air, cloud autocancel windows and such would definitely be appreciated too.

 

[Metallinatus]

not broken - that implies she doesn't function how she's supposed to.

she IS overpowered, and a nerf to stuff like zss up b kill confirms, rosaluma up air, cloud autocancel windows and such would definitely be appreciated too.

....and to Mario's Up B kill confirms.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'll keep an eye in this thread so it remains civil, and will provide a proper comment when I get home later tonight.

 

[MercuryPenny]

....and to Mario's Up B kill confirms.

mario's up b can't kill from center stage at reasonable percents, nor can he paralyze people for half a second to confirm it lol

 

[Metallinatus]

 

[Hydgen]

Witch time can be a pain to deal with, but if you read her counter, is left open for a hard punish.

She also has lots of landing lag after using her specials, allowing her opponent to play more aggressive and land a smash attack or a powerful combo like one of 's saw blade combos, (Which can confirm into a Up-Tilt.)

is still very good and high-level players have found out that she can avoid landing lag by grabbing the ledge, or landing with her neutral special, (which gets rid of all landing lag.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bullet Climax overrides her Special Lag, but it isn't exactly the safest move she has (and she's forced to shoot as soon as she hits the ground).

 

[★ARKZ AGES★]

If you are at max height of Bayo's recovery/combo, you can start shooting immediately and it will completely cancel your lag and Bullet Climax will finish as soon as you hit the ground, giving her a free landing. At least that's what I heard.

The same can be done with dair.

 

[KirbCider]

No, Bayonetta is not broken. She's definitely no where near Brawl Metaknight when it comes to being "OP".

While she may have a ton of pros she still has plenty of weaknesses of her own. The most notable complaints people have about her are usually that her combos are low risk high reward, she's impossible to edge guard, and it feels like a lot of her attacks seem safe. People also seem to claim that her pros highly out weigh her cons as well. Meanwhile others are just salty with her.

I really don't feel like she needs a nerf, and in fact I wouldn't even know where to nerf her if another one happens. She honestly seems fine to me, but people will just tell me I'm biased cause I main her and wouldn't care what I have to say anyways.

The hate that surrounds her honestly gets pretty ridiculous sometimes, but what can you do?

In short, I personally think she's fine as she is and people should focus a lot less on complaining and trying to ban her because they think shes broken when she's far from it. Shes tough, but shes not impossible and does require a bit of skill to use correctly despite what people think about her. I just wish people would get their heads out of that salt pile they made about her already.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

I can understand how my girl is still making players salty but she needs no more nerfs. She is no Brawl and is certainly no Tekken 4 Jin Kazama either. The 1.1.6 patch was adequate enough to put her on a more even playing field. It is not like she has to zero-death players all the time anyway. She could wisely employ Witch Time to set up combos or finishers, or to throw an extra layer of chocolate icing on the cupcake, press her strong edge-guarding game into service to garner her fair share of kills.

Have y'all forgotten Bayo is relatively light with bad frame data on the ground compared to or ? And doesn't she struggle a bit in the neutral like I keep hearing? As with any character, Bayo has her flaws and they're significant enough to render her far from unbeatable.

LOL. If frame data was all that mattered, Yoshi would be Top 10. And don't get me started on Witch Time. Easy 0 - deaths, invincibility, unpredictable. How is that not broken? And of course she's not unbeatable. Brawl Metakight can be beaten, although very rarely. Also, the Top 10 characters in this game are light, besides Mario and maybe Rosalina.

TDLR - Nerf Bayo, Buff the Puff(and Falco, R.I.P. lasers and dair)

 

[NeverKillAgain]

No, Bayonetta is not broken. She's definitely no where near Brawl Metaknight when it comes to being "OP".

While she may have a ton of pros she still has plenty of weaknesses of her own. The most notable complaints people have about her are usually that her combos are low risk high reward, she's impossible to edge guard, and it feels like a lot of her attacks seem safe. People also seem to claim that her pros highly out weigh her cons as well. Meanwhile others are just salty with her.

I really don't feel like she needs a nerf, and in fact I wouldn't even know where to nerf her if another one happens. She honestly seems fine to me, but people will just tell me I'm biased cause I main her and wouldn't care what I have to say anyways.

The hate that surrounds her honestly gets pretty ridiculous sometimes, but what can you do?

In short, I personally think she's fine as she is and people should focus a lot less on complaining and trying to ban her because they think shes broken when she's far from it. Shes tough, but shes not impossible and does require a bit of skill to use correctly despite what people think about her. I just wish people would get their heads out of that salt pile they made about her already.

Please explain "skill". You mean QCF +B > QCF + B > Up + B > Jump > Up+B > Uair?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Please refrain from Double Posting in the future, it's against the rules. You can use the multiquote function (the +Quote button) or Edit the post to add any missing info to it.



Now, Bayonetta has a lot of good moves, but keep in mind that her combos depend not only on her own execution, but also the opponents' actions. There's a lot you, as the one receiving a combo, can do to avoid maximum damage, a strong finisher, or being carried to the blastzone. That combo you described above for example, shouldn't work against proper DI.

Also, yes, most of the top tier are pretty light, and Rosalina is actually one of the lightest characters in the game: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

 

[Hydgen]

For those people who think that is still broken, please learn the proper DI for her moves.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../4futcn/chart_on_how_to_di_bayonettas_combos/

If for some reason you still think is OP, please explain. I would love to hear all your different opinions on this subject.

Cya

 

[NeverKillAgain]

Please refrain from Double Posting in the future, it's against the rules. You can use the multiquote function (the +Quote button) or Edit the post to add any missing info to it.



Now, Bayonetta has a lot of good moves, but keep in mind that her combos depend not only on her own execution, but also the opponents' actions. There's a lot you, as the one receiving a combo, can do to avoid maximum damage, a strong finisher, or being carried to the blastzone. That combo you described above for example, shouldn't work against proper DI.

Also, yes, most of the top tier are pretty light, and Rosalina is actually one of the lightest characters in the game: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

Sorry, didn't know that. Anyways, to add on to what you and Hydgen are saying, it doesn't help that SDI has almost no presence in this game.

For those people who think that is still broken, please learn the proper DI for her moves.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../4futcn/chart_on_how_to_di_bayonettas_combos/

If for some reason you still think is OP, please explain. I would love to hear all your different opinions on this subject.

Cya

What I think is OP about her is that she breaks the pre-established rules of the game. For example, recovery. Every other character in the game only has a jump and and Up + B to recover. But for Bayo, she does Up + B first, and then can jump, Up + B, and then use Side + B. She ALSO has a wall "cling" , which she can use to get a wall jump, and Up + B again, IIRC. Then there's her Bat Within. Players are supposed to carefully time their dodges, but Bayo is rewarded for mistiming them. She can actually get out of most combos because her Bat Within air dodge(and spotdodge) come out frame 1. Why should a player NOT get hit by reacting LATE? And then there's her stupid Witch Time. It is active frames 5 - 21, and has intangibility up to frame 16. That leaves only 5 frames to punish. But wait, there's more! She has Bat Within active from frames 17 - 29! Yay! It also has a FAF of 50. This is honestly the most broken counter in the game, not only in how it works, but also in frame data. Let's compare it to Marth's counter, one of the faster ones in the game. It is active frames 6 - 27, is only intangible on frame 5 - 6, and has an FAF of 60. It's obvious which one is better.

TLDR - Bayo breaks basic Smash Bros. rules.

Frame data is from Kurogane Hammer.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL. If frame data was all that mattered, Yoshi would be Top 10. And don't get me started on Witch Time. Easy 0 - deaths, invincibility, unpredictable. How is that not broken? And of course she's not unbeatable. Brawl Metakight can be beaten, although very rarely. Also, the Top 10 characters in this game are light, besides Mario and maybe Rosalina.

TDLR - Nerf Bayo, Buff the Puff(and Falco, R.I.P. lasers and dair)

Whatever you say, sweetie. But since you've brought up Witch Time let me clarify: this counter is powerful in its own right but it is not perfect. Now, not only does its effectiveness get reduced with overuse but Bayo is not always going to be in a position to capitalize on the foe's slowed-down status depending on the situation.

Please explain "skill". You mean QCF +B > QCF + B > Up + B > Jump > Up+B > Uair?

You've got to be kidding me now...that ain't even a true combo particularly when your foes can easily SDI it. Let's keep in mind the downward Afterburner Kick had its angle changed with a higher SDI multiplier, making it far less useful for combos regardless of whether or not the opponent applies DI. Anyways, there's more to her than just combos. Y'all have to play patiently and wait for a chance to punish since she doesn't do that well in neutral. This is part of what makes her a pretty difficult character to learn.

 

[KirbCider]

Please explain "skill". You mean QCF +B > QCF + B > Up + B > Jump > Up+B > Uair?

Like the others have already stated that combo shouldn't even be effective at this point unless you're missing a brain.

You also have to consider mixing up your escape options when caught in her combos. For example if you're going to SDI and use dodge the entire time she'll read that. If you SDI in one direction the entire time, she'll read that. Her combos will rely on reads.

The same can be said for her too. If she doesn't use mix ups in her combos or uses the same one constantly she can be read.

Plus there's the fact if you screw up a combo and the opponent easily escapes they'll be waiting for you and your now laggy landing. While she may have a few easy combos she has more advanced ones as well which you really want to shoot after more and also require more skill and the ability to read quite well in order to pull them off correctly. The harder ones are tougher (obviously).

Sorry, didn't know that. Anyways, to add on to what you and Hydgen are saying, it doesn't help that SDI has almost no presence in this game.

What I think is OP about her is that she breaks the pre-established rules of the game. For example, recovery. Every other character in the game only has a jump and and Up + B to recover. But for Bayo, she does Up + B first, and then can jump, Up + B, and then use Side + B. She ALSO has a wall "cling" , which she can use to get a wall jump, and Up + B again, IIRC. Then there's her Bat Within. Players are supposed to carefully time their dodges, but Bayo is rewarded for mistiming them. She can actually get out of most combos because her Bat Within air dodge(and spotdodge) come out frame 1. Why should a player NOT get hit by reacting LATE? And then there's her stupid Witch Time. It is active frames 5 - 21, and has intangibility up to frame 16. That leaves only 5 frames to punish. But wait, there's more! She has Bat Within active from frames 17 - 29! Yay! It also has a FAF of 50. This is honestly the most broken counter in the game, not only in how it works, but also in frame data. Let's compare it to Marth's counter, one of the faster ones in the game. It is active frames 6 - 27, is only intangible on frame 5 - 6, and has an FAF of 60. It's obvious which one is better.

TLDR - Bayo breaks basic Smash Bros. rules.

Frame data is from Kurogane Hammer.

There's a lot of characters with extra recovery options. Also, ROB can technically do UP B, Jump, and UP B again. So can Yoshi.

Are you going to say they break the rules, too?

Bat Within is only useful in certain situations as well and depends on what you intend to do with it. While it can put her in a better position you can always do something stupid to bat within an attack and still get hit or even grabbed or whatever as well. You can't just attempt a bat within and expect it to keep you 100% safe. It's only as useful as the user makes it. Besides Bayonettas dodges are actually pretty terrible to begin with. Along with that you still have to time it to get bat within too, as that can also be mistimed.

And her dodges are really no different from others read wise. Read her dodges and take into account bat within.

Aside from the fact her counter is no doubt the best in the game, by the end of the day it is still just a counter. Her Witch Time can be read like any other counter, plus if used incorrectly it actually leaves her open to a counter attack. It also hates multi-attacks. If the Bayonetta doesn't think properly after a Witch Time the multi-attack can hit her and bring the opponent out of it, or clang with her Smash Attack if she wants to do that for some odd reason which would sort of waste the Witch Times potential really.

And lets not forget you can't Witch Time a grab. If you have a character with a super good grab Bayonetta will hate you. And don't forget you can't counter a projectile either unless you are close enough to them. The only exception would be Bayonettas Bullet Arts if not one or two others I think. So yeah, it might be the absolute best there is but it's still just a counter that suffers from misuse.

And how useful it is depends on the opponents placement and the situation.

Also, at the end of the day she is still a Bait & Punish character who has a not so decent neutral and lacks a few approach options. She can be easy to pick up due to her pros; however in order to make her shine you have to dedicate yourself to her and actually get good with what she has to offer. She also requires you to actually read quite well in order to get her punishes in properly.

Don't forget she is also light weight herself. Also, there's also this:

Her recovery only ranks 4th best in the game despite everything she has recovery wise.

 

[Metallinatus]

Like the others have already stated that combo shouldn't even be effective at this point unless you're missing a brain.

So, the EVO champion, who happens to main Bayonetta, misses a brain? He got owned so hard at Smashcon....

 

[NeverKillAgain]

Whatever you say, sweetie. But since you've brought up Witch Time let me clarify: this counter is powerful in its own right but it is not perfect. Now, not only does its effectiveness get reduced with overuse but Bayo is not always going to be in a position to capitalize on the foe's slowed-down status depending on the situation.


You've got to be kidding me now...that ain't even a true combo particularly when your foes can easily SDI it. Let's keep in mind the downward Afterburner Kick had its angle changed with a higher SDI multiplier, making it far less useful for combos regardless of whether or not the opponent applies DI. Anyways, there's more to her than just combos. Y'all have to play patiently and wait for a chance to punish since she doesn't do that well in neutral. This is part of what makes her a pretty difficult character to learn.

LOL "sweetie". Why are you so pretentious?. Also other counters do that too, like Shulk's.

Like the others have already stated that combo shouldn't even be effective at this point unless you're missing a brain.

You also have to consider mixing up your escape options when caught in her combos. For example if you're going to SDI and use dodge the entire time she'll read that. If you SDI in one direction the entire time, she'll read that. Her combos will rely on reads.

The same can be said for her too. If she doesn't use mix ups in her combos or uses the same one constantly she can be read.

Plus there's the fact if you screw up a combo and the opponent easily escapes they'll be waiting for you and your now laggy landing. While she may have a few easy combos she has more advanced ones as well which you really want to shoot after more and also require more skill and the ability to read quite well in order to pull them off correctly. The harder ones are tougher (obviously).



There's a lot of characters with extra recovery options. Also, ROB can technically do UP B, Jump, and UP B again. So can Yoshi.

Are you going to say they break the rules, too?

Bat Within is only useful in certain situations as well and depends on what you intend to do with it. While it can put her in a better position you can always do something stupid to bat within an attack and still get hit or even grabbed or whatever as well. You can't just attempt a bat within and expect it to keep you 100% safe. It's only as useful as the user makes it. Besides Bayonettas dodges are actually pretty terrible to begin with. Along with that you still have to time it to get bat within too, as that can also be mistimed.

And her dodges are really no different from others read wise. Read her dodges and take into account bat within.

Aside from the fact her counter is no doubt the best in the game, by the end of the day it is still just a counter. Her Witch Time can be read like any other counter, plus if used incorrectly it actually leaves her open to a counter attack. It also hates multi-attacks. If the Bayonetta doesn't think properly after a Witch Time the multi-attack can hit her and bring the opponent out of it, or clang with her Smash Attack if she wants to do that for some odd reason which would sort of waste the Witch Times potential really.

And lets not forget you can't Witch Time a grab. If you have a character with a super good grab Bayonetta will hate you. And don't forget you can't counter a projectile either unless you are close enough to them. The only exception would be Bayonettas Bullet Arts if not one or two others I think. So yeah, it might be the absolute best there is but it's still just a counter that suffers from misuse.

And how useful it is depends on the opponents placement and the situation.

Also, at the end of the day she is still a Bait & Punish character who has a not so decent neutral and lacks a few approach options. She can be easy to pick up due to her pros; however in order to make her shine you have to dedicate yourself to her and actually get good with what she has to offer. She also requires you to actually read quite well in order to get her punishes in properly.

Don't forget she is also light weight herself. Also, there's also this:

Her recovery only ranks 4th best in the game despite everything she has recovery wise.

1. Barely any SDI presence in this game.
2. As I already said, the best characters in this game are light (Top 5)
3."Only" 4th best recovery lol. Out of 58(I think) characters, 4th best recovery is amazing. What are you even talking about?
4. Yoshi's midair Up-B decreases in height. And ROB runs out of fuel.
5. For dodges, I'm talking about combo wise, not read wise.
6. And finally, please list "advanced combos"

 

[Deleted member]

LOL "sweetie". Why are you so pretentious?. Also other counters do that too, like Shulk's.



1. Barely any SDI presence in this game.
2. As I already said, the best characters in this game are light (Top 5)
3."Only" 4th best recovery lol. Out of 58(I think) characters, 4th best recovery is amazing. What are you even talking about?
4. Yoshi's midair Up-B decreases in height. And ROB runs out of fuel.
5. For dodges, I'm talking about combo wise, not read wise.
6. And finally, please list "advanced combos"

I'm just a friendly, adventurous 55-year-old lady that doesn't play competitively but I am pretty knowledgeable. So, allow me to briefly clarify your points:

1. SDI is still here in Sm4sh but has been reduced on the whole.
2. is top 5 but he is not light.
3. I've seen that video just now and was impressed how or have the best recoveries around. Now, my girl doesn't have to be top-ranked at everything.
4. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the man knows that already.
5. Doesn't matter if it is combos or reads, she does have bad dodges requiring good timing and wise usage.
6. Please check out the Bayo guides for advanced combos.

Now, please stop disregarding the facts everyone here is stating to you. This information really can save you from being comboed to death every chance she gets.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I don't think Bayonetta needs to be nerfed. She's just another character everyone must learn about and adapt to.

I've been able to escape several of her basic strings as Bowser, someone who obviously isn't adept at dealing with combo intensive characters. It doesn't really matter if there's not a lot of SDI potential if the little SDI there is is enough to save the biggest hitbox in the game from a zero to death.

Admittedly, as a Bowser main, I've never had much problem from Bat Within because I see a Bayo trying to Witch Time me often as fair opportunity for a grab.

But overall I feel that while Bayonetta is the best character in Smash, she isn't broken or overpowered. The techniques to deal with her exist - it's up to us, the players, to learn how to adapt to and beat her. We had to do it with Bowser, Luigi, Sheik, Diddy and Cloud. We'll find a way to beat Bayonetta, too.

 

[KirbCider]

LOL "sweetie". Why are you so pretentious?. Also other counters do that too, like Shulk's.

I don't think they were being pretentious at all; however your posts do sound a bit aggressive.

1. Barely any SDI presence in this game.
2. As I already said, the best characters in this game are light (Top 5)
3."Only" 4th best recovery lol. Out of 58(I think) characters, 4th best recovery is amazing. What are you even talking about?
4. Yoshi's midair Up-B decreases in height. And ROB runs out of fuel.
5. For dodges, I'm talking about combo wise, not read wise.
6. And finally, please list "advanced combos"

1. As @Shizuka Kawai stated it still exists in the game regardless despite being reduced. And if BarSoapSoup , a Bowser main, can SDI out of Bayonettas combos just fine then other characters should be able to do the same without question.

It just takes a bit of practice.

2. Yes, you did.

3. The point I was trying to bring up there is why complain about her recovery in the first place when there's other characters who apparently have better recovery options than she does? I'm not denying her recovery is awesome, but why list it off as one of the things that make her OP when there's three other characters who out rank her in that category? It's the 4th best, but not THE best.

If you watch the video it looks like Zero Suit Samus's is actually crazier than Bayonettas due to what she can be capable of.

4. Yes, I'm aware of that but my point still stands. Don't bring up how she "Breaks the rules" by being able to UP B > Jump > UP B when those two examples that I've listed can do the same exact thing. She may have more recovery tools, but don't get onto her for that one specific thing about her recovery that other characters have been doing since day 1 regardless of how their own works.

5. You can still read someones dodge in a combo. If you don't want to activate bat within read the dodge. Her dodge is terrible and leaves her open without bat within. I believe you're supposed to go for true follow ups and mix ups anyways when dealing with her.

6. As @Shizuka Kawai stated yet again, there is a very good Guide on Bayonetta located right here on SmashBoards that lists (quite thoroughly might I add) every type of combo and mix up she can do other than the basic ones you see on For Glory all day. It also lists her advanced techniques as well. Some are listed as easy, some moderate, and some difficult. It's a very excellent Guide.

 

[DMan64]

I feel like recent events have given me the light I need to give a solid opinion on this subject.

I'll be honest, I whole heartedly despise Bayonetta's presence in this game, and I do think she deserves to be toned down, similar to other top tiers, that being said, she isn't unbeatable and there are various characters and players out there that can hold their own and beat Bayonetta. Cloud is considered to have a 50/50 matchup. MK Leo has been opting for Corrin more often against her(not to mention Cosmos and Ryuga have also beaten players like CaptainZack and Salem), suggesting she has a solid matchup against her, and Diddy Kong can easily out-neutral Bayonetta, and we have the "witch hunters" such as Esam and Fatality, showing that if you know the matchup, you can win against her.

Is she a pain to deal with, of course, does she bend the rules of Smash in her favor, yes, can it feel unfair when she gets 40-50% or death because you jabbed, absolutely, does she derserved to be toned down with other characters(such as maybe shrinking hitbox sizes and reduce the distance ABK and Witch Twist can go) probably.

Unbeatable and flawless, definitely not.

I don't think she should be banned, and I think more people need to understand that there are characters out there, such as Cloud, Corrin, and Diddy, who can hold their own at top level play against her, and learning the fundamentals of the matchup is really important.

And as for the argument that she carries players, isn't that the point of a character to begin with. I play Corrin, a character people are divided on in terms of tier placement, yet I personally experience more success and fun with her.

 

[Dr BurnS]

If a character is nerved in one patch, than have an entire patch dedicated to nerving them hard, and they're still the best character in the game, than yes, they need to be nerved again. Bayonetta is an annoying character to fight, and that's coming from someone who is hated in his local scene because of his use of Corrin. The best player in my area plays Bayonetta, and I just cannot beat him for the life of me. Do I hate Bayonetta for being in the game? No. Do I hate how you can't gimp her recovery now matter how hard you try? Yup. Bayonetta needs to be nerved again, and this time, hard. She can still be the best character in the game, but she needs to be less obnoxious to deal with. Those are just my opinions though.

 

[DMan64]

If a character is nerved in one patch, than have an entire patch dedicated to nerving them hard, and they're still the best character in the game, than yes, they need to be nerved again. Bayonetta is an annoying character to fight, and that's coming from someone who is hated in his local scene because of his use of Corrin. The best player in my area plays Bayonetta, and I just cannot beat him for the life of me. Do I hate Bayonetta for being in the game? No. Do I hate how you can't gimp her recovery now matter how hard you try? Yup. Bayonetta needs to be nerved again, and this time, hard. She can still be the best character in the game, but she needs to be less obnoxious to deal with. Those are just my opinions though.

While I would agree a nerf would be fine, it also needs to not take away what makes her Bayonetta. The only thing that would make sense to me is shrinking hitbox sizes, adjust the distance Witch Twist and D/ABK goes and adjusting the knock back accordingly, and removing what's essentially a frame 1 air dodge. Perhaps they could find a way to remove the exploits used to negate all landing lag, but that's quite a stretch too.

Simply put tone her down, yes, completely nerf hard, no, other wise you'd start hearing more complaints about other characters, that's just how people work. Not to mention it completely screws over the people who play as her.

And while some may argue she's a "brainless" character, well then let me put it this way.

You use the best character in the game, as well as arguably the most hated character in the game. That said people do whatever they can, and stop at nothing to take you down simply because of the character you use. The majority of people who cheer during a match, usually cheer for the one who isn't using Bayo, want proof, look at top 8 2GGC SCR Saga. That puts a ton of pressure on them not just as a player, but as a person. When a huge threat comes about, the "relative good" comes to together to figure out ways to beat said threat. And if your someone who uses Bayonetta, instantly you have a stigma. You become that threat for the character you use, and as such, even with that good of a character, you must always know what your doing, since people will take every opportunity they see not just to take you down not just because your their opponent, but because you use Bayonetta.

As I said before, she carries players, but that's the point of a character, to carry you to victory. If your using a character that can't stand on their own and benefit you, why bother. If that's the case, why don't people complain about Cloud, Diddy, and Mario more often, when they are more simple to use, yet more often than not, perform better?

Dr BurnS , people likely complain about you using Corrin because they themselves don't know what to do against her, and thus will do what they can to try and beat you. Trust me, my local scene has a few Corrins (including myself) so they get plenty of practice. All I can say is keep player Corrin if that's what works best for you, and don't be afraid to go at your best, so others can reach their best.

Earlier I also mentioned I hate Bayonetta's very presence in Smash, but that doesn't mean I hate Bayonetta players, especially the top players who earned their victories and put up with crap on a daily basis simply because they use her, I respect them highly, but I hate her because of what she's doing to the community and frankly how, well, toxic she's been. I'm sick of seeing her brought up and I'm sick of watching her because I know what'll follow. That's part of why I think toning her down a bit would be a wise idea, though not the main reason.

 

[Metallinatus]

While I would agree a nerf would be fine, it also needs to not take away what makes her Bayonetta.

Make her specials be completely unable to kill (it can still rack up a lot of damage) and make Witch Time require some sort fo charge similar to KO Punch and Limit Break (Down B always does Bat Within when not charged).
Done, you have a more fair Bayonetta.

 

[ぱみゅ]

But what if the dev team is 100% done with patches and we won't get them anymore? What will you do if that's the case? What is your opinion under that context?

Make her specials be completely unable to kill (it can still rack up a lot of damage) and make Witch Time require some sort fo charge similar to KO Punch and Limit Break (Down B always does Bat Within when not charged).
Done, you have a more fair Bayonetta.

Bruh, Witch Time is very prone to getting stale, if Bayo uses it too often you can start being more aggressive and be fine even if WT activates.

 

[DMan64]

But what if the dev team is 100% done with patches and we won't get them anymore? What will you do if that's the case? What is your opinion under that context?


Bruh, Witch Time is very prone to getting stale, if Bayo uses it too often you can start being more aggressive and be fine even if WT activates.

Couldn't have put it better, if Bayo doesn't get nerfed then oh well, she's shown to be beatable, so I'll just continue on, she's a pain without a doubt, but as I said, she's not flawless.

As you mentioned witch time can get stale, and not to mention at top level play, you usually don't see it happen too often. Plus, given how certain characters are showing they can go toe to toe with her, such as Corrin in recent times. I'll learn more as time goes and I'll just learn to use the tools at my disposal better.

I should stress I want nothing more than to not have another Brawl Meta Knight situation where we see almost nothing but Bayo's in tournament, but if that's starts to be the case, then, well, in that situation I'm honestly not sure.

 

[Metallinatus]

As you mentioned witch time can get stale, and not to mention at top level play, you usually don't see it happen too often.

Exactly, we rarely see it getting stale at right level, and yet the move is used a lot.... much more than any other counter. All this shows is that it's just not enough and introducing a charge mechanism for the move would change that. Plus, Bat Within would start to make sense to exist.

 

[DMan64]

Exactly, we rarely see it getting stale at right level, and yet the move is used a lot.... much more than any other counter. All this shows is that it's just not enough and introducing a charge mechanism for the move would change that. Plus, Bat Within would start to make sense to exist.

Not what I meant, what I meant was relatively speaking, it can happen more than other counters, but in the grand scheme of things, at top level play you don't see witch time landed all too often simply because of people who are familiar with both the matchup and player habits.

Does it make witch time any less a stupid move, no, but even after one use it can get way less time, and while it happens more at tournaments, it could also be due to the fact that there are generally more Bayo players than players of other characters that have counters, such as Corrin and Marth.

Plus in the context of the character, that's not how witch time/bat within works in her home games. In my opinion, the better way to handle this is more so to nerf air dodge Bat Within, and have the frames it activates during an air dodge moved from frame 1 to say, frame 4, that way other other characters can have an easier time dealing with it, and get more in terms of damage, but make it more rewarding if you get it. Either way you look at it, if your getting hit by it often, then back up a bit, be more patient, and bait it out, and punish accordingly, it's not that different from a normal counter in that regard. Also just go for garunteed stuff as well, then bait something out.

 

[Hydgen]

When ever I fight , I use a ranged character like or . I then stay out or the range of her and use projectiles to limit her options before rushing in for a melee attack.
(Play defensively but don't spam.)

Dr BurnS : I dislike , but that is probably because I meet tons of really spammy ones on For Glory who keep using and .

Cya

 

[NeverKillAgain]

KirbCider , yes, I know I said the top chars in this game are light. I'm saying it's an advantage to be lighter in this game.

Also, recovery is important, but not everything. Take Villager, for example.

Furthermore, BarSoapSoup said he can SDI BASIC Bayo combos.

Lastly, I main Falco and Luigi. The only true death combo I know is Luigi's infamous "Poke combo". Falco is almost entirely mixups, since after ~40%, D-throw FC Nair strings aren't true. All I have left is D-throw Bair, RAR U-air, and U-throw RAR U-air > Bair. Doesn't help I suck at RAR U-air.

@Shizuka Kawai

I know SDI is is this game. I said barely, not none. "Little" would've been more accurate tho.

You're right about Cloud, but the point still stands that 8 of the top 10 characters are light.

 

[Bowserboy3]

The title of this thread and the title of the poll are two very different things. Being broken and needing a nerf are not necessarily linked.

Is Bayonetta broken? Absolutely not; just because she's the best in the game, it does not make her broken, it just means she's better than the other characters.

However, does she need a nerf? I'd wager that a few of her options could be toned down a bit.

So in short, for me, she isn't broken (she has MU's where she can legitimately struggle and also isn't doing a Brawl Meta Knight and having 5 solo mains of her populate the top 5 spots of top 8), but nerfs would be warranted.

Just as a disclaimer, I use Bayonetta as one of my three tournament characters (along with Marth and Rosalina), so my opinions may not be what you expect from somebody who uses her.

 

[MERPIS]

I could write a 20 page essay about why Bayonetta is bull crap still after 1.1.6...But in short, she is like a Marvel vs Capcom character, in smash.

That's not a good thing

 

[Bowserboy3]

I could write a 20 page essay about why Bayonetta is bull crap still after 1.1.6...But in short, she is like a Marvel vs Capcom character, in smash.

That's not a good thing

She's bullcrap, but totally beatable, only proven by her results and inability to populate top 8 or top 16 of tournaments by at least 80%, like Meta Knight did in Brawl for example.

That's a good thing.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

She's bullcrap, but totally beatable, only proven by her results and inability to populate top 8 or top 16 of tournaments by at least 80%, like Meta Knight did in Brawl for example.

That's a good thing.

Being bull crap is not a good thing.