Is Bayo still busted?

Nerscylla

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#1
She still has ladder combos.
She still has bats within.
Her recovery is still near impossible to challenge.
Those ladder combos MkLeo pulled off during a invitational gave me PTSD.
 

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#2
I think it was confirmed through a tweet that Sakurai had looked already on Bayo's insane performance already at the invitational and was claimed to be "shaking his head" - so I guess Bayo will be receiving some nasty nerfs in the future.
 

edde

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#4
looks like it... then again ridley is huge... maybe its easier to dodge with smaller chars
DW, a lot of things look like will be nerfed like:
Bayo's combos if inescapable
Ridley's 59 dmg downb
Mario and Sonic's overall strength
 
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#5
i'd wait to say shes still amazingly storng Leo styled on a melee player that had no idea what to do.

zero had no problem avoiding it. also with directional airdodge you can get out of it.
 

KatKit

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#6
The game has a lot of time before release. Aside from that, there's going to be balance patches afterwards. It's too early to assume that anything is busted before the final product. I think Bayo will be decent, but far from broken.
 
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Zero Soul

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#7
It completely relies on how the rest of the cast is balanced and we simply don't know that yet, but yeah, if (big if) it turns out that Bayonetta got small nerfs like it looks like she got and the rest of the Smash 4 cast got only small buffs/nerfs and all of them (including Bayonetta) got the same universal movement buff, she'd likely still be OP in comparison to the majority of the cast. We still have nowhere near enough information to judge whether that's true or not though.
 
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Ultra*HappyCharge

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#8
I haven't watched this said fight where everyone booed the player who played Bayo. I've also heard that Sakurai shook his head at what he had seen. Essentially, what happened during the fight? I'm sorry if this might sound dumb since I'm a bit indifferent towards the competitive scene but I'm deeply concerned at everyone saying Bayonetta should be nerfed again.
 
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#9
I haven't watched this said fight where everyone booed the player who played Bayo. I've also heard that Sakurai shook his head at what he had seen. Essentially, what happened during the fight? I'm sorry if this might sound dumb since I'm a bit indifferent towards the competitive scene but I'm deeply concerned at everyone saying Bayonetta should be nerfed again.
Mkleo killed the player using ridley 2 or 3 times using the good old BnB combo during the tournament.Killed at what, 20 or 30% ? But as the others have said already, Mario kept falling out of it.

Also after the torunement Sakurai said he spotted 3 bugs, so my guess is he did nerf it to hell for smaller characters (and possibly made it worse for big, heavy chars), but overlooked Ridley.
 

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#10
I definitely don't believe she is, there are a lot of variables on how Leo roofed Plup (Green Greens' ceiling, Ridley's size, Plup's DI, and so on) to properly determine the character's strength.
But what I saw was a character that's already weaker than their previous iteration.
:196:
 

MysticKnives

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#11
Too early to tell. MKLeo managed that on Ridley, but that was on a big character who nobody has an experience playing at all. ZeRo's Mario managed to get out of the combo a few times.
 

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#12
I feel like Green greens, as well as inexperience with Ridley made it look way worse than it is when compared to when it was tried later in the tourney
 

Ordeaux26

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#13
one thing I've seen no one bring up is that Sakurai may have shook his head in disappointment because of the crowds booing at the character despite all the nerfs he gave to her

I swear the smash community will take everything out of context and twist arguments so that people cant start a flame war without considering other possibilities
 

Flon

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#14
I definitely don't believe she is, there are a lot of variables on how Leo roofed Plup (Green Greens' ceiling, Ridley's size, Plup's DI, and so on) to properly determine the character's strength.
But what I saw was a character that's already weaker than their previous iteration.
:196:
one thing I've seen no one bring up is that Sakurai may have shook his head in disappointment because of the crowds booing at the character despite all the nerfs he gave to her

I swear the smash community will take everything out of context and twist arguments so that people cant start a flame war without considering other possibilities
Bayonetta is bugged in the E3 build. MKLeo used 4 double jumps to combo Plup into the blastzone.

ZeRo slows down the footage and shows each jump

The other stock taken was, again, 4 double jumps. The fact that this combo was done after Plup hit Bayonetta offstage (in a naturally disadvantageous position) means it's understandable people would be upset. Bayonetta is technically broken in the build, so I don't blame anybody for thinking that she needs fixing.
 
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Ordeaux26

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#15
Bayonetta is bugged in the E3 build. MKLeo used 4 double jumps to combo Plup into the blastzone.

ZeRo slows down the footage and shows each jump

The other stock taken was, again, 4 double jumps. The fact that this combo was done after Plup hit Bayonetta offstage (in a naturally disadvantageous position) means it's understandable people would be upset. Bayonetta is technically broken in the build, so I don't blame anybody for thinking that she needs fixing.
If that is the case it will definitely be fixed no matter what bugs in games happen all the time so getting upset about this one specifically is ridiculous but people are extremely overreacting to this
 

Zero Soul

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#17
Isn't that just her regular "Third" Jump trick?
:196:
I don't think it's regular or intended, she jumped again after the combo which took all three of the jumps Bayonetta is intended to have, perhaps the check for how many jumps Bayonetta has left with the triple jump mechanic is bugged?
Look at 1:14, Bayo jumps, ABKs, then jumps again into witch twist, then jumps a third time using Witch Twist again, kills with a u-air after the witch twist, then jumps again after Ridley is dead, the combo wasn't bugged but what happened immediately afterwards was.
 

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#18
Again, it looks like its regular behaviour in Smash 4.
There is a certain frame window after jumping where she can activate Witch Twist and still retain her Airborne Jump, and that can be done with BOTH Witch Twists.
After all this evidence, I can't say it was not intended.
:196:
 

Zero Soul

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#19
Again, it looks like its regular behaviour in Smash 4.
There is a certain frame window after jumping where she can activate Witch Twist and still retain her Airborne Jump, and that can be done with BOTH Witch Twists.
After all this evidence, I can't say it was not intended.
:196:
Yeah, I know it's possible to pull of the same thing in Smash 4 (without the apparent fourth jump, I think?), but can the Witch Twist by itself when used in the air make the little ring animation that double jumping does? I don't know whether or not it does that honestly lol. If it does then yeah, it is regular behavior, if not though then she jumped three times instead of two before Ridley died because she jumped before using Afterburner-kick, then there was one of those rings during the first Witch Twist then another in the 2nd Witch Twist, which I think means she jumped four times in total? Was that possible originally and am I understanding that correctly, or are those rings naturally there during the aerial Witch Twists even without jumping and everyone's just freaking out over nothing (as usual lol)?
Screen Shot 2018-06-15 at 1.20.55 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-15 at 1.21.18 AM.png

Sorry for the low quality images but these are the rings I'm talking about.

Edit: Just tested in Smash 4 and it doesn't seem like those rings come out unless you buffer/input a jump as well, might have changed in Smash Switch but it's looking like she actually jumped 4 times to me, and I'm assuming the triple jump and not this (pseudo-?)quadruple jump thing is possible in Smash 4 (I've been wrong before though lol).

Edit 2: Oh wait, never mind, it took me a while, but I actually get what you're saying now, whoops. I didn't realize that could be done with BOTH of the Witch Twists before, must be pretty stringent timing then.
 
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Bowserboy3

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#21
**IMPORTANT INFO REGARDING BAYONETTA DOUBLE JUMP FIASCO**

I watched ZeRo's stream, and about Bayonetta's many double jumps. It bugged me, because this was always the case in Smash 4.

What's more, it's PROGRAMMED into the game as a general mechanic - and not just for Bayonetta. Allow me to explain.

Basically, it's there for tap jump users. Let's think logically for a second.

Lets say for the sake of argument, Mario is launched off stage. He's at a distance where he doesn't want to burn his double jump, because he can recover to the ledge with his Up Special easily.

This player is a tap jump user, so, naturally, the player presses upwards on the control stick, so that they can activate his Up Special by then pressing Special.

BUT, the moment they press upwards, the game registers a double jump - frame 1 (I don't recall if the ripples animaton comes out on the same frame, but the moment you press upwards, the game registers that you've used your double jump).

HOWEVER, if you press your Special around 1-3 frames after this, the game preserves your double jump as if you hadn't used it. Essentially, it's a mechanic to allow tap jump users to use their Up Special's without burning their double jump.

Think about it - if this mechanic didn't exist, and the Mario got hit again AFTER using his Up Special - to a distance where he needed to use his double jump, - he'd be screwed, because he wouldn't have it. It'dve been burned.

Let's think of a simpler example. Mega Man can jump after using his Up Special if he still has his double jump. Without this mechanic, tap jump Mega Man players would not be able to double jump after using Up Special off stage/in the air, because they'd lose their double jump upon trying. Do you all get where I'm coming from with this?

This mechanic is less noticeable for most characters because many/most Up Specials put you into freefall anyways, so unless you need it again to recover, you don't notice your double jump is gone. This is why Bayonetta (and to a lesser extent, Mega Man) requires this mechanic to accommodate for all control schemes and types of players. Essentially, if we modded Mario's Up Special to not send into freefall straight after, we'd be able to preserve Mario's double jump in just the same manner.

The only thing I think they should perhaps do, is make it so that Bayonetta cannot use her double jump AGAIN after using her 2nd Witch Twist. Essentially, once she's used all of her Twists, she should just lose her double jump. That, makes sense overall, because she's still effectively had to use her double jump to activate the 2nd Twist.

---

As an aside, this is why you see a LOT of tap jump Bayonetta users - such as myself. It is FAR easier to frame perfectly double jump and Up Special with tap jump, because you effectively use just two movements; one with your left thumb (pushing the control stick upwards) and one with your right thumb (pressing special).

With regular controls and tap jump off, you have to press upwards with your left thumb as normal, but then jump and THEN special with your right thumb. Basically, it's harder to frame perfectly do it this way because you have to move your thumbs across different buttons.

Like, I use Marth and Bayonetta. I only use tap jump for her.
 
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#22
**IMPORTANT INFO REGARDING BAYONETTA DOUBLE JUMP FIASCO**

I watched ZeRo's stream, and about Bayonetta's many double jumps. It bugged me, because this was always the case in Smash 4.

What's more, it's PROGRAMMED into the game as a general mechanic - and not just for Bayonetta. Allow me to explain.

Basically, it's there for tap jump users. Let's think logically for a second.

Lets say for the sake of argument, Mario is launched off stage. He's at a distance where he doesn't want to burn his double jump, because he can recover to the ledge with his Up Special easily.

This player is a tap jump user, so, naturally, the player presses upwards on the control stick, so that they can activate his Up Special by then pressing Special.

BUT, the moment they press upwards, the game registers a double jump - frame 1 (I don't recall if the ripples animaton comes out on the same frame, but the moment you press upwards, the game registers that you've used your double jump).

HOWEVER, if you press your Special around 1-3 frames after this, the game preserves your double jump as if you hadn't used it. Essentially, it's a mechanic to allow tap jump users to use their Up Special's without burning their double jump.

Think about it - if this mechanic didn't exist, and the Mario got hit again AFTER using his Up Special - to a distance where he needed to use his double jump, - he'd be screwed, because he wouldn't have it. It'dve been burned.

Let's think of a simpler example. Mega Man can jump after using his Up Special if he still has his double jump. Without this mechanic, tap jump Mega Man players would not be able to double jump after using Up Special off stage/in the air, because they'd lose their double jump upon trying. Do you all get where I'm coming from with this?

This mechanic is less noticeable for most characters because many/most Up Specials put you into freefall anyways, so unless you need it again to recover, you don't notice your double jump is gone. This is why Bayonetta (and to a lesser extent, Mega Man) requires this mechanic to accommodate for all control schemes and types of players. Essentially, if we modded Mario's Up Special to not send into freefall straight after, we'd be able to preserve Mario's double jump in just the same manner.

The only thing I think they should perhaps do, is make it so that Bayonetta cannot use her double jump AGAIN after using her 2nd Witch Twist. Essentially, once she's used all of her Twists, she should just lose her double jump. That, makes sense overall, because she's still effectively had to use her double jump to activate the 2nd Twist.

---

As an aside, this is why you see a LOT of tap jump Bayonetta users - such as myself. It is FAR easier to frame perfectly double jump and Up Special with tap jump, because you effectively use just two movements; one with your left thumb (pushing the control stick upwards) and one with your right thumb (pressing special).

With regular controls and tap jump off, you have to press upwards with your left thumb as normal, but then jump and THEN special with your right thumb. Basically, it's harder to frame perfectly do it this way because you have to move your thumbs across different buttons.

Like, I use Marth and Bayonetta. I only use tap jump for her.
Oh my lanta.

This is beautiful. Thankyou for your explanation.

I am kinda curious how that got past testing.
 

Bowserboy3

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#24
The only thing that "slipped through" will have been Bayo keeping her double jump after her 2nd twist. The rest will have been as intended if due to the mechanics.

That said, let's take a look at the confirmed Bayo changes already and break down what we already have.

Screenshot_7.png


- Neutral Air having more landing lag when extended means she won't be able to chip damage on as easily. It also weakens her neutral, as this was one of her best neutral and approach tools (areas she was relatively limited in anyways). This is a step in the right direction for making her more tolerable.
- Forward Air not being a combo extender will limit her combo game. It may also weaken and/or completely remove her ability to drag people off the side of the stage using combinations of Fair 1 and Twists. Again, a good change.
- Down Air's knockback was silly. Reduced knockback is a no brainer good change.
- This is a change I am unsure on. Admittedly, not many other characters have the ability to cancel charge moves, but at least some stop charging or force you to fire after a certain amount. In the end though, this is another probably for the best change. Limits her ability to outright force shield on characters, as she won't just be able to cancel charge if they attempt to jump over her.
- The Heel Slide change is also good. Means it can always be punished by grab at least.
- DABK not autocancelling is also a good change. Means that she can't just escape juggles totally for free every time (admittedly, she probably still will with the speed it moves).
- Witch Time no longer grants intangibility. Esentially, the counter move has been normalised, and she can be actually punished properly like every other counter move with a grab now. A fair and good change.
- And Witch Time having lesser slowdown time is also good. For one, it makes her punishes less deadly (but punishes still possible). It also means she won't be able to abuse the longer Smash Attack charge time in this game.

All in all, right now, Bayonetta is a much weaker version of herself. We don't even know how good the rest of the characters are yet. Is she still busted? Perhaps? Probably not, to be honest. But as stated by another user above, what we have seen is a clear weaker version of herself so far.

When you also consider how low landing lag for other characters are in general in this game (for example, Marth's Nair is now just 8 frames, lowest it's ever been), characters are going to have a much easier time giving Bayonetta herself trouble. Their ability to space around her may be better than before.
 
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Bowserboy3

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#25
Idk whether I'm allowed to double post here, but I just spotted ANOTHER Witch Time nerf in a video, which is here:

https://youtu.be/dAoNfEfaWCc?t=11

Bayonetta's Witch Time in Smash 4 is interruptable (or the FAF) on frame 50.

After using Youtube's frame by frame feature (as the video was not 60fps, its running at 30fps, so each skip was 2 frames), I counted that Witch Time's FAF in Ultimate is AT LEAST 64 frames.

This, on top of the other changes, means Witch Time is NOW MORE OF A COMMITMENT. THIS, IS A GOOD CHANGE.

EDIT:
It would ALSO appear Witch Twist has increased startup. In Smash 4, it's notoriously frame 4.
Using Leo vs Plup which is 60fps, Ridley gets hit on frame 6 of the animation.

That's a noticeable nerf.

Still a usable move, and we've seen it can still combo thanks to Leo. It just means that Twist OoS won't be as viable, or as easy to do now. Again, this is good.

Here is my tweet I made with the images explaining: https://twitter.com/FruityBowserboy/status/1007769792554643457
 
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MysticKnives

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#26
Just going off this preliminary look at Bayo from the demo, she definitely just seems like a worst version of herself, but she doesn't seem like she'll be bad.
 

Bowserboy3

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#27
Nair's landing lag when extended is indeed increased. I am counting 18 frames using ZeRo v Leo Grand Finals.

And using the same video, it appears non extended is still 10 frames.

For reference, it was always 10 frames, non extended AND extended in Smash 4.

Here, Leo luckily uses extended followed by non extended, one after another - https://youtu.be/58PipoxX5tE?t=230

I also counted Bair and Fair landing lags. They are still 12 frames and 14 frames respectively.

EDIT:
More stuff to report - in my tweet thread here - https://twitter.com/FruityBowserboy/status/1007779474983747584
 
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#28
Nairo and others talked bayonetta about 39 minutes into this stream.

In addition to changes mentioned previously in this thread.
-Bayonetta apparently can only hold Neutral B for a few seconds after full charge before she stops. They can't be held immediately.
-According to these guys you can shield/air dodge cancel Neutral B, but only when it has reached full charge.
-Side B does not crossup on shields. Similar to Fox's new Side B, she is stopped on making contact with a shield and is unable to perform the second kick.
-Ladder combos are only effective at mid to high percents (50% and onward). When Up B has enough knockback to send the victim into a tumble state.
-At previous points of the stream they mention the increased landing lag on N-air extended, as well as F-air1 not comboing into Side B.
 

Bowserboy3

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#30
Nairo and others talked bayonetta about 39 minutes into this stream.

In addition to changes mentioned previously in this thread.
-Bayonetta apparently can only hold Neutral B for a few seconds after full charge before she stops. They can't be held immediately.
-According to these guys you can shield/air dodge cancel Neutral B, but only when it has reached full charge.
-Side B does not crossup on shields. Similar to Fox's new Side B, she is stopped on making contact with a shield and is unable to perform the second kick.
-Ladder combos are only effective at mid to high percents (50% and onward). When Up B has enough knockback to send the victim into a tumble state.
-At previous points of the stream they mention the increased landing lag on N-air extended, as well as F-air1 not comboing into Side B.
May be a silly question, but do we know yet whether ABK crosses up shields?
And, if it sadly still does, does it allow her to use her 2nd ABK?

If it cannot cross up shields, or at the least, doesn't give her her 2nd ABK, that will limit some of her ledge recovery options, as well as potential landing mixups.
 
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