Invulnerable Ledge Stalling & Invulnerable Ledge Recovery

Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
#1
Invulnerable up-b ledge stalling is possible much like Sheik's shino stalling. The process works by letting go of ledge, double jumping, then up-bing to regrab ledge. One can let go of ledge on frame 9, using frame 1 as the first frame of invulnerability. From there, you have 7 frames to double jump. This assumes you do not fast fall (If you do fast fall, the frame margin falls from 7 to 3). Jumping 8 frames or later doesn't allow for full invulnerability even if you up-b the next frame. The following list provides how many frames you have to up-b after double jumping, based on the number of frames between letting go of ledge and jumping. This list assumes you let go of ledge frame perfect.
  • You have 8 frames to up-b if you double jump 1 frame after letting go of ledge
  • You have 8 frames to up-b if you double jump 2 frames after letting go of ledge
  • You have 8 frames to up-b if you double jump 3 frames after letting go of ledge
  • You have 9 frames to up-b if you double jump 4 frames after letting go of ledge
  • You have 9 frames to up-b if you double jump 5 frames after letting go of ledge
  • You have 6 frames to up-b if you double jump 6 frames after letting go of ledge
  • You have 1 frame to up-b if you double jump 7 frames after letting go of ledge
Note: This was tested by jumping straight up. Double jumping away from the stage means you are likely to not regrab ledge and instead teleport. The recommended procedure is to practice letting go of ledge with away with the control stick, moving the control stick to the up position, then double jumping. It is also possible to let go of ledge by pressing away with the c-stick, jumping with the control stick in neutral, then up-bing. This would require a claw grip if tap jump is off to fully incorporate. If tap jump is on, the c-stick option is preferred since the claw grip is no longer required.

EDIT: See my post below regarding invulnerable ledge recovery options
 
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Arcalyth

GLS | root
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
650
Location
West MI
#2
what's the fastest way to get onto the stage with actionable invulnerability frames? what are her invincible ledge options?
 

Kaeldiar

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
563
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MDVAiridian City
#3
So you're talking about
what's the fastest way to get onto the stage with actionable invulnerability frames? what are her invincible ledge options?
<100% Ledgejump to air dodge is the fastest, giving you 9(?)
Ledgedash allows you to get further onto the stage, because you can PWL, but gives you 2(?) fewer frames. Mentor Mentor can double check those numbers
 

Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
#4
For either question, it entirely depends on her percentage whether it's under or over 100%. I'll answer the first question as I don't fully understand the 2nd question.

I'm assuming by actionable invulnerability frames, you're referring to invulnerable frames when Zelda is on the stage after grabbing ledge.
Under 100%: Ledge jump->waveland onto stage 1st/2nd frame available-> up to 9 actionable invulnerable frames
(To get 9 frames, you must waveland horizontally and slightly downward eg WSW, ESE on the 1st frame available or diagonally downward eg SE, SW on the 2nd frame available to get all 9 frames, otherwise you will only get 8. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction for a reference of WSW or ESE)
Invincible option (frame margin to be invulnerable during start up lag, assuming 9 actionable invulnerable frames), ordered highest to lowest frame margin:
Shield (9)
Spot dodge (8)
Dodge Roll (6)
D-smash (5)
U-smash (4)
D-tilt (4)
Up-b (3)
Grab (1)
U-tilt (1)
B (0)
F-tilt (-1)*
N-air (-1)*
B-air (-1)*
Turnaround->jump->B-air (-2)*
*This means you will be vulnerable for at minimum 1, 1, 1, and 2 frames respectively

Personal thought: When you practice there things yourself, you'll notice Zelda wavelands in and gets a fair amount of space to act. In some cases when you're being pressured and below 100%, it may be better to waveland back to grab ledge to allow for these options, along with up-b stalling to mix up when you come back to stage.

Over 100%: The previous option is now out due to the ledge jump animation taking 20 frames instead of 10. Zelda will be vulnerable for 1 frame before her shield is up if you perform the previous maneuver.
Instead, let go of ledge on frame 9 assuming frame 1 is the frame Zelda grabs ledge->double jump frame 10->waveland onto stage frame 23-> up to 3 invulnerable actionable frames (To get 3 frames, you must waveland horizontally and slightly downward eg WSW, ESE or diagonally down eg SW, SE)
Invincible option (frame margin to be invulnerable during start up lag, assuming 9 actionable invulnerable frames), ordered highest to lowest frame margin:
Shield (3)
Spot dodge (2)
Dodge Roll (-1)*
D-smash (-2)*
*This means you will be vulnerable for at minimum 1 and 2 frame(s) respectively

Kaeldiar Kaeldiar You know me too well.
 
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Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
#5
Just discovered a new ledge stalling tactic. Let go of ledge frame 9, jump frame 10, nair frame 11. If you're frame perfect, you'll re-grab ledge. If you fear you won't be frame perfect, up-b on the iasa for nair & you get a 3 frame margin in between all these inputs. The downside to this is you're vulnerable for 15 frames (last frame of invulnerability is last frame nair hitbox is out assuming frame perfect) plus the 7 frame start up for up-b making total vulnerability 22 frames. If you are frame perfect and don't up-b you are then vulnerable for 23 frames.
If you move towards the stage, you auto-cancel the nair & your vulnerability is only 15 frames. Don't fast fall any of this, it doesn't help. At all.

You can either use this as a visual mix up between this and regular up-b stalling, or as an edgeguard tactic.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
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Dec 13, 2003
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Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
#6
Ledgehop f-air aerial interrupt is a faster way to get onto the stage than <100 ledge jump AD, and gives 10 frames. Probably not too practical of an option though as I think there's never more than a 1 frame input window for the f-air.

1-8) Ledge Grab
9) Ledge Drop
10-22) Jump
23) F-Air (frame 14 of jump)
24-27) Landing (autocancel)
28-37) (inv actionable)

The jump can also be done on 11-12 instead of 10 at the cost of 1-2 less invulnerability (you still input f-air on fr14 of jump, and land fr2 of f-air).



You can get up to 6 on a ledge dash. On 20-22 a slight downward/good wavedash angle gets you onto the stage, landing on fr3 of the AD with up to 6 inv. On 23-25 you can AD straight horizontal (as well as slight down and full diagonally down), landing on fr2 of the AD with up to 4 inv.
 

Justbngoode

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
20
Location
Potomac, MD
#7
How many actable Iframes are on ledgehop > No Impact Land? you can get it fairly quickly IIRC and it's more consistent than fair autocancel.
 
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Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
563
Location
MDVAiridian City
#8
How many actable Iframes are on ledgehop > No Impact Land? you can get it fairly quickly IIRC and it's more consistent than fair autocancel.
According to my own testing, -5 is the best possible. I FF'd for 5 frames, then jumped on the 6th

To steal Magus' format:
1-8) Ledge Grab
9) Ledge Drop (Fastfall)
10-13) Fastfall
14-37) Jump (still invincible)
38-42) Still in Jump (not invincible)
43) Land, Actionable frames
 

Mentor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
55
#9
So there's a major issue w/ the data I posted earlier: Due to up-b's mechanics, you can only invincible ledge stall if you release from the ledge on exactly the first frame possible. Releasing on frame 10, jumping on frame 11, and up-bing on frame 12 will cause you to be vulnerable for 1 frame. Releasing on frame 11 will cause 2 frames vulnerability and so on.

After some soul searching (ie smashing my head into my controller trying to find some combo of custom controls & inputs that would allow me to buffer the frame perfect ledge release), I figured out a work around that brings it from a frame perfect trick to a 2 frame window trick. If Zelda grabs the left ledge on PS2, attempt to hit the c-stick on frame 8/9 and then hit the CS in the same direction (left) 1 frame later (ie frame 9/10 respectively). You must to it with the c-stick then CS otherwise Zelda will let go of ledge then bair. You can think of it as a pivot fsmash but in reverse. Surprisingly, this only took about 30 mins of grinding to get the hang of performing these inputs (still working on applying it to being frame perfect). At least now it's a tinny bit more viable.

Only downside is sometimes Zelda ledge attacks when hitting the c-stick away from the stage & I don't know why...
Update: I think the c-stick buffers ledge getup options... T_T
 
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