Pluplue
Smash Ace
"Easier to just short hop fast fall missile cancel"!? Vids of you doing it consistently in tourney pliz
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Guide Intro To Samus + Character Match-Up's
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I don't have many tourney vids, I think I may have done it a few times against slox's falcon GF of the last set I played, but really shffmcs arent that bad after you get down the wavelands of low hanging platforms into fast fall missile cancels on yoshis (thats actually how I got better at shffmcs, first on dreamland, then battlefield and finally to yoshis, where I would first learn running off into a fast fall missle, then wavelands, when I got it down on dream, I moved onto battlefield, and when finished on battlefield, moved to yoshis, (cool side note though, if you do it perfectly on the battlefield lower two platforms, you will ledge cancel the missle on the side of the stage and then grab ledge) I can even play you on netplay if you want plup and can do them pretty consistently on there too. It was just one of the first advanced techs I learned when Knut showed me, he used to be hella consistent at them as well, not sure if he still is.
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Pluplue
Smash Ace
I don't have netplay, but being able to consistently shffmc has always eluded me. I can fast fall missile cancel from platforms fine, but shffmc seems different for some reason... and impossible. (for me at least)
If you do the following and can master each, I guarantee shffmcs will no longer elude you bud.
Dreamland Lower 2 platforms: Run off the left and right side of each, as soon as you fall off, fast fall into a smash missile to the left, and then to the right for each side of each platform.
Successful 10x move to running along the ground on dreamland, double jump onto platform --> waveland off left/right side, into fast fall missile, 10x successful on each platform on each side shooting a missile in both directions then...
Battlefield: Repeat steps on dreamland
Pokemon/Yoshis (**** gets real here): Repeat steps on dreamland
Now, go to pokemon stadium and stand under the platforms and short hop, if you try to fast fall missile cancel too soon you will just land on the platform, this is the final step to moving this tech into muscle memory to know how long you must wait before you can fast fall into the missle
Shield....... wd OoS... punish accordingly... or Grab OoS...
ok actually when I wd oos to punish upsmash on my shield it seems like he can shield a dsmash; am I just slow, or is the dsmash not guaranteed? should I do like wd jab? The grab is probably spot-dodgeable right?
(Vaguely related: Fly confirmed the other day that shieldgrab punishes Falco's fsmash on shield, but you have like 4 frames of leniency before spotdodge dodges the grab.)
OBI1JABLOMI
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
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- 69
Against really good fox/falco players, I don't think Samus's grab is worth going for after shielding the usmash or fsmash. They spot dodge it almost every time. I think its better to go for JC grabs after tech chasing fox and falco players.
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You are just slow, no grab not spotdodgeable if you time it right
You are wrong, and too slow on the grab OoS. Also what you just said... first if they spot dodge it... you just recognized a pattern and can bait something out from them FOR a punish... and second... it you guess wrong on the jump cancel grab... you will get a guarenteed up smash or fsmash in your face... against an actually good fox main, missing a grab for samus is the same thing as missing a rest for puff... you are going to be punished VERY HARD
SpeedyJ
Smash Journeyman
What's the general opinion on the Samus match-up vs. Captain Falcon. How bad is it for Samus? 40-60? 30-70?
Thanks
Thanks
I think Samus needs to be the aggressor versus Falcon. If we can stop him from moving, he can't do much.
If I recall correctly, HugS thinks Samus wins by 55-45. When I watch him play, I understand why he thinks so. HugS bases much of his Samus game jabbing and Ftilting, instead of missiles and smashing.
One irritating fact is that his short hop is higher than our jab...
One very important thing in the match up, I believe, is edge guarding. Falcon shouldn't be able to get back the stage versus Samus. Our dFtilt, Utilt and Fsmash cover the ledge recovery, and we can simply go out and Nair Falcon if they try to recover low. Remember Falcon's upB has no hitbox.
Be very cautious with laggy moves on their shield such as Dsmash, because you'll get punished hard.
In this match up I prefer FoD and YS over the other stages because there's less room for Falcon, and it's easier to pin him towards the edges where we win.
If I recall correctly, HugS thinks Samus wins by 55-45. When I watch him play, I understand why he thinks so. HugS bases much of his Samus game jabbing and Ftilting, instead of missiles and smashing.
One irritating fact is that his short hop is higher than our jab...
One very important thing in the match up, I believe, is edge guarding. Falcon shouldn't be able to get back the stage versus Samus. Our dFtilt, Utilt and Fsmash cover the ledge recovery, and we can simply go out and Nair Falcon if they try to recover low. Remember Falcon's upB has no hitbox.
Be very cautious with laggy moves on their shield such as Dsmash, because you'll get punished hard.
In this match up I prefer FoD and YS over the other stages because there's less room for Falcon, and it's easier to pin him towards the edges where we win.
OBI1JABLOMI
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
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- 69
Lets see some videos of you playing
Go look for them youtube Barbie (samus)
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
roll until they punish it
ledgestand until they punish it
and then start doing roll again
get up attack for good measure
Alternatively practice perfect U-air AIs so you can abuse 11 frames of invincibility and reverse the situation with d-smash, or start something with d-tilt
If marth plays it right, you should never get back on the stage, but if samus plays it right, she gets back on without being thrown off again.
ledgestand until they punish it
and then start doing roll again
get up attack for good measure
Alternatively practice perfect U-air AIs so you can abuse 11 frames of invincibility and reverse the situation with d-smash, or start something with d-tilt
If marth plays it right, you should never get back on the stage, but if samus plays it right, she gets back on without being thrown off again.
This past weekend at Do You Fox Wit It, I played Tafokints in pools. When Samus is on the ledge, he stands in the middle of the stage and charges needles. Depending on what Samus does, he'll throw the needles or cancel charge -> grab or fair. This beats roll, ledgedash, normal getup, ledge attack options, and ledgejump, because he'll either have enough needles to push you back offstage, or the grab -> fair / fair will put you back offstage.
The only two good options I (and @Violence ) can think of are invincible AI -> shield or invincible haxdash to bait the needles -> some fast getup option (@Violence said "no impact land" here specifically; forgive me for being ignorant, but what no impact land options does Samus have?). Are there other ways of beating this? I wonder if drop -> doublejump (to bait needles) -> bomb (to absorb needles) -> fade back -> fast getup would work.
The only two good options I (and @Violence ) can think of are invincible AI -> shield or invincible haxdash to bait the needles -> some fast getup option (@Violence said "no impact land" here specifically; forgive me for being ignorant, but what no impact land options does Samus have?). Are there other ways of beating this? I wonder if drop -> doublejump (to bait needles) -> bomb (to absorb needles) -> fade back -> fast getup would work.
Umm honestly, this would be one of the few instances where just bombing on the lip of the stage and rolling back to ledge would have a use. On battlefield especially, AIing is pretty risky and so is haxdashing with samus, while in bomb morphball form you are small enough to go under standing needles being thrown, and you can even just time it so you roll on stage in morphball right after all the needles pass over you and then just shield :/, other than that, you can stall on the ledge with mini charge shots into regrabs after the shiek throws the needles at you, so they cant just stand there and charge again.
Hmm, I think the oh so often forgotten ledge stand could be a viable option in this case too. Especially when we're below 100%. Lots of invincibility frames, and they'll have to hit us during those 2-3 vurnerable frames from afar before we shield.
Go watch the Mass Madness archive on twitch from 2 saturday ago, I do it plenty of times in tourney then
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
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- 1,027
The best option i can see is refresh ledge invulnerability --> quick wavedash onto stage. I haven't really seen a consistent option to beat me just charging needles near the middle of the stage. Any little tricks that people try to do and I can modify my flowchart slightly to cover it. tl;dr Samus has a rough time on the ledge =/
Ringedge
Smash Apprentice
I would think invincible AI->Sheild/spot dodge would work in this situation, unless there is an argument against it? Not too sure,
Alright I have a very stupid question. How do you super missile (that's what they're called right?) consistently? I always end up using regular missiles when I don't want to, and I only sometimes use super missiles. Any advice?
There are super missiles and homing missiles. Smash missiles are done by smashing instead of tilting. If you can do Fsmashes instead of Ftilts or dash attacks with A, you can do super missiles instead of homing missiles with B.
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BillNyeTheSamusGuy
Smash Journeyman
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- Jan 3, 2014
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- 463
I just want to point out, for the record, that searching for matches of you does not work (curse generic tags).
Ringedge
Smash Apprentice
I just want to point out, your tag is awesome Bill.
OBI1JABLOMI
Smash Cadet
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- Sep 24, 2014
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His name is ken litt, so some of his other matches are under the name Klit(samus)
Lol yeah, but all the ones of me performing well against high level opponents are under Barbie... and hmmm
lmao dude I had the problem of TOs and streamers not allowing my tag of KLit because of it sounding like ****, so I made Barbie as an ironic tag to Ken, since Ken was already taken and I was most certainly not a marth main
Thor
Smash Champion
People's opinion on the Samus-Link matchup? I know it's not common, but I think it favors Link. Having played a Samus or two, it seems like Link's everything beats Samus's missiles (can nair if you're careful, boomerang or throw bombs to stop them) and Link has more stuff to throw (he seems able to output projectiles at a higher rate, except maybe on Pokémon?), as well as a variety of stuff to smack her around offstage (plus good air speed to sometimes just try to nair her offstage, though that's not usually that smart). Then Link has two solid vertical KO moves that can help cut Samus's lifespan short. Somewhere around 55-45 to 60-40 Link's favor seem right or am I missing something?
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you arent missing anything, not a good MU for samus... but there are a ton of worse MUs for link... which is why there are less links out there than samus mains
I agree it's a hard matchup for Samus. It's like facing a Marth with projectiles...
Remember that he can bomb from shield, but not grab.
Read their shieldgrab when they're without bomb.
Read their bomb when they're with bomb.
Remember that he can bomb from shield, but not grab.
Read their shieldgrab when they're without bomb.
Read their bomb when they're with bomb.
more.... pressure the **** outa their shield when they have bomb so it explodes with them holding it and you get a free follow up ;p
Noxus
Smash Cadet
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- Feb 4, 2014
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So samus puff i have been having a bit of trouble with it, mostly in neutral. I find it hard when puffs only use spaced bairs on you, how should samus react and approach neutral? And in terms of stages, good to go for small stages and stay away from dreamland/FD?
I lost to a DK in tourney this weekend. I had a lot of trouble with the same stuff Noxus is talking about with Puff--dunno what to do in neutral against mass bair on stages where it's hard to spam missiles. I struck to FD, which in hindsight seems like a poor choice, cped Stadium and shot like 200 missiles and won, then I banned Yoshi's and he CPed FoD, and I'm not so good at missiling there :/
I also just got hit for doing dumb ledge options like ledgehop missile; he just punched me through the missile from the middle of the stage -_-; I think I just don't know the range of certain moves (punch, mostly, which netted him like 4 kills). Ftilting DK doesn't seem very good because he can CC if not shielded, or upb oos if shielded...
Some advice I got was to "shoot at his exposed head when he's in shield," "missile to force him to jump and bair," "try to dtilt / grab his landing," and "try extender."
I also have no idea what to do if he up-bs really high to like, the top platform...
I also just got hit for doing dumb ledge options like ledgehop missile; he just punched me through the missile from the middle of the stage -_-; I think I just don't know the range of certain moves (punch, mostly, which netted him like 4 kills). Ftilting DK doesn't seem very good because he can CC if not shielded, or upb oos if shielded...
Some advice I got was to "shoot at his exposed head when he's in shield," "missile to force him to jump and bair," "try to dtilt / grab his landing," and "try extender."
I also have no idea what to do if he up-bs really high to like, the top platform...
BillNyeTheSamusGuy
Smash Journeyman
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- Jan 3, 2014
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The best option is to have a charge shot on hand and threaten and/or punish the bair with it.
The next best is to get under her and punish with uair or fair.
Ftilt won't beat the bair but if you know the puff is going to stay around short hop height you can read her movement and approach with a spaced ftilt after you've avoided the bair (*if you think they're not gonna bair again).
Well here is the thing, if DK is on the other side of the stage... same with puff... that means... either they cant deal with the missiles, or they are allowing you to spam, if they are near center stage... and you are still trying to win neutral with missiles, all your opponent is going to do... is wait to understand your pattern, which for most samuses is pretty ****ing simple, short hop missile, fall through plat, missile, repeat... and they will just space an attack where you are going to go next.... up or down... when you got DK and Puff spamming bairs at you.... YOU SAY THANK YOU OH LORDY LORD FOR BREAKING NEUTRAL AND TOSSING OUT MOVES OF YOUR OWN, WHICH I CAN NOW PUNISH... You wait for them to throw out the bair, and then your hit them... simple as that... the very fact they are throwing out bairs, means they dont like missiles, or they are offensively coming after you... BOTH OF THOSE THINGS SAY MISSILES ARE NO LONGER THE SMARTEST OR BEST OPTION... SO YOU SHOULD PROBABLY STOP DOING THEM..... :o :O :O
Here is some good advice... dont hit his head with a missiles, STOP SHOOTING ****ING MISSILES... PRESSURE HIS SHIELD... His OoS Options... are a slow grab... nair... bair... up air, and up b... nair sucks and is slow, bair over covers the back, up B only covers the back... so just DONT PRESSURE THE BACK... He is very vulnerable from above and below, if you See DK recovering high, go for a nair, then immediately charge your charge shot for the 2nd time coming back... not hard... he goes low, fall with a nair and see if he can stage tech it... I used to play Phish-It a fair amount in tourney, and the DK MU really isnt thatttt bad... As long as you play it right, and give DK the respect he deserves moveset wise, regardless of his tier placing, DI his throws or you are going to get up aired to no end, or faired... no one wants to get faired by DK lol, and thats pretty much it