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Instant No-Impact Land from Ledge

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
Doo doo doo found another tech thing I haven't seen before

I was practicing AI's from ledge (on Yoshi's) and a few times instead of doing an AI I instantly did an up smash:

(apologies for potato video quality, I don't have a recording setup)

I'm assuming it was a no impact land but after some googling I couldn't find any mention of it. Everything I found just turned up no impact lands onto platforms and the one people do from ledge already is at the end of the double jump, not instantly like that. Not sure if this is a known thing but I figure this is still the place to ask.

Played with it some more and I was able to do one or two empty ones without the up smash so I'm sure you could do whatever option out of it same as the AI from ledge, but I'm guessing a few frames faster?

For the record I was using control stick right to drop from ledge, and instantly jumped with Y and flicked the control stick towards stage. I was also able to do it on both sides of the stage. Haven't seen it happen on any other stages so there's a chance it could be a Yoshi's island specific tech. Anyways, I thought it could be useful and I'm again putting my findings up here for the frame junkies to look into if it hasn't been discovered already. If this is something we could get down consistently (I've managed to do it a bunch without knowing exactly how) I think it might be a better option than AI from ledge?
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
Ok so I played around with this some more and actually managed to figure it out in game. Turns out it's way easier than I thought!


It's less inputs than an AI but I think you have to be way faster. As soon as I drop from ledge (using control stick away from stage) I immediately flick the stick back towards the stage and jump at roughly the same time. I'm guessing it's a 1-2 frame window. Similar to a SWD with a jump in the middle actually, but I think unlike SWD you *have* to be holding at least close to full left/right on the next frame. After that you just keep holding in towards the stage and you no impact land.

I thought it was either the ECB colliding with the sloped ledges on Yoshi's or you being in just the right spot when the ECB updates after 10 airborne frames or whatever it is but I think it's the former because of how consistently I could get it after messing around for less than an hour. I also tried it out on other stages after I figured it out with no luck. *EDIT* Pretty sure now it's the sloped ledges. Managed to do it on Peach's Castle and the bottom of the pit of Hyrule Temple

I'm no expert on frame data but I'd imagine this is at least 4 frames faster than an AI from ledge, so it's probably around 15 frames of grounded invulnerability when it's frame tight but I'll leave that to smarter people to figure out.

If this IS a new thing and no one has a better idea, I'm dubbing this the Reverse Ramen Noodle :D

(and again, sorry for the video quality...)
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
Lol I've been told this isn't new which isn't too surprising given how relatively simple it is, but at the same time I still see players like Duck doing AI's from ledge so I have no idea. Is this actually a thing already? Gonna leave this up either way since I still haven't seen it mentioned anywhere
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
So how is it called if it is not new?
No idea but probably not as cool as reverse ramen noodle lol. I posted it in the local facebook page and people said it wasn't new and mentioned most characters around samus' height can do it. I know falcon, marth, and ganon all have relatively quick no impact lands but to my knowledge those are either at the apex of the jump or after they are already coming down. And samus' later NIL of course. With this you clip onto the slope on the way up and it's faster than her other ledge options. I'd be amazed if I was the first person to do this but the fact that all the top samuses are doing AI's makes me curious
 

Kataquax

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
32
well i gonna call it the reverse ramen noodle (RRN) as long noone tells me a name that was coined earlier

i think it is not thaaat unlikely that you are the first person to find that out since this is a tech with strict input and a not so natural motion... on the other hand ppl found out about the SWD and the extender so idk
 

Kataquax

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
32
anyway
i tried it on other stages with non-horizontal edges like coneria and was not able to do it on them (on YS it worked sometimes)... did you test it on other stages beside the turnament legal ones?
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
anyway
i tried it on other stages with non-horizontal edges like coneria and was not able to do it on them (on YS it worked sometimes)... did you test it on other stages beside the turnament legal ones?
Yeah, it worked on Peach's Castle and the bottom of the pit on Hyrule Temple. Pretty sure it's the sloped ledges
 

Litt

Samus
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,863
Location
CT
Doo doo doo found another tech thing I haven't seen before

I was practicing AI's from ledge (on Yoshi's) and a few times instead of doing an AI I instantly did an up smash:

(apologies for potato video quality, I don't have a recording setup)

I'm assuming it was a no impact land but after some googling I couldn't find any mention of it. Everything I found just turned up no impact lands onto platforms and the one people do from ledge already is at the end of the double jump, not instantly like that. Not sure if this is a known thing but I figure this is still the place to ask.

Played with it some more and I was able to do one or two empty ones without the up smash so I'm sure you could do whatever option out of it same as the AI from ledge, but I'm guessing a few frames faster?

For the record I was using control stick right to drop from ledge, and instantly jumped with Y and flicked the control stick towards stage. I was also able to do it on both sides of the stage. Haven't seen it happen on any other stages so there's a chance it could be a Yoshi's island specific tech. Anyways, I thought it could be useful and I'm again putting my findings up here for the frame junkies to look into if it hasn't been discovered already. If this is something we could get down consistently (I've managed to do it a bunch without knowing exactly how) I think it might be a better option than AI from ledge?
I have not seen any tech mentioning immediate NIL however I am not sure if this is faster than AI from ledge and it is stage dependent to the sloped stages which means only yoshis story this is applicable for competitive play.
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
I have not seen any tech mentioning immediate NIL however I am not sure if this is faster than AI from ledge and it is stage dependent to the sloped stages which means only yoshis story this is applicable for competitive play.
It's visibly faster to me, and while AI has 4 frames landing lag (or 3 depending on how you count), NIL has 0-1. I don't have frame perfect AI's but I've played it back a bunch in slo-mo and from what I can tell you snap to the ledge at least as soon as you can with an AI if not earlier. Worst case I'm guessing you save a couple frames, best case something like 4?

*EDIT* Watched it back frame by frame. Starting frame 1 on the first frame I drop from the ledge the green standing/idle overlay is fully visible on frame 13 on one of the ones I watched and I'm probably not frame perfect

It is most likely specific to Yoshi's but after just a little more practice I can do it semi-consistently. I can't see a reason not to do it instead of AI
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
It's probably a PC Jump, seen at the end of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMxgGtMLEfw

It may be simpler as a result of Yoshi's wonky surface, but it looks for all intents and purposes like a PC Jump to me.
I actually saw that video while researching this lol. That music.

Mechanic might be the same. I'm actually not sure how that's different from a NIL drop, but that is on a platform and not the ledge

(also I can't help but read your signature as the Bill Nye theme song)
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
I actually saw that video while researching this lol. That music.

Mechanic might be the same. I'm actually not sure how that's different from a NIL drop, but that is on a platform and not the ledge

(also I can't help but read your signature as the Bill Nye theme song)
It's different in terms of timing. A NIL must be timed such that only the peak of the jump gets above the platform. PC Jumping is much closer to the jump's initial frames. I'm not sure if the mechanics behind the tech are understood at all, or if Samus is actually capable of it on a platform. They are different, though. Of that much I'm sure.

My signature is actually a tribute to a member of NC's Smash community, and very close friend of mine, who was hit by a drunk driver a few years back and suffered massive brain damage. We used to rag him for his name, and I originally made the signature for him to use. Now I have it on my own profile for memory's sake.
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
It's different in terms of timing. A NIL must be timed such that only the peak of the jump gets above the platform. PC Jumping is much closer to the jump's initial frames. I'm not sure if the mechanics behind the tech are understood at all, or if Samus is actually capable of it on a platform. They are different, though. Of that much I'm sure.

My signature is actually a tribute to a member of NC's Smash community, and very close friend of mine, who was hit by a drunk driver a few years back and suffered massive brain damage. We used to rag him for his name, and I originally made the signature for him to use. Now I have it on my own profile for memory's sake.
Truly sorry to hear that :(
 

zDuck

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
482
Location
Ann Arbor/West Bloomfield, Michigan
Okay so I've done this a lot of times by accident

You get 11 frames of invincibility on the stage

To do this

1. Let go of ledge
2.
3.
4. Jump + hold in

It's frame perfect and only works on yoshi's to my knowledge
 

Litt

Samus
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,863
Location
CT
Okay so I've done this a lot of times by accident

You get 11 frames of invincibility on the stage

To do this

1. Let go of ledge
2.
3.
4. Jump + hold in

It's frame perfect and only works on yoshi's to my knowledge
Frame perfect on frame 4 for the jump? Is that what you are talking about for the frame perfect input?
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
Ok, so I did some more research into this out of curiosity. My knowledge of ledge frames is super not perfect lol so please correct me if I'm wrong...


Like I said, I don't know frame data that well and was counting 30 frames of invulnerability as soon as you grab ledge, and letting go as soon as frame 8 after you first grab ledge. Looked it up and the wiki is saying you get 29 AFTER you let go. Before, when I mentioned the green stand overlay was visible on frame 13, I was counting 12 as being the first actionable frame, and adding the 7 frames of cliff hang, so 19. 30 - 19 = 11. Lol apparently that's very not correct?

I went through this last video frame by frame and what I got was pretty consistent across the board. Assuming the last frame you are holding onto ledge is frame 0, this was my count:

0 - Still holding ledge
1 - Let go of ledge
3 - Jump animation starts (every time)
|
11 - For all but two of the times in the video (I was a frame late), Samus was turned around/beginning an attack animation
10 - So this would technically be the first frame you could do an input

By my old count of adding 7 frames and subtracting the total from 30, that would be 13 frames of invulnerability. 2 more than an AI.

But, if I'm reading the wiki correctly it's actually 29-10 which would be 19 frames??

.......Am I completely wrong or is this the fastest ledge dash in the game?
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
Talked with Duck and spent some time in the debug menu. Pretty sure he was right about it being 11 frames although I did count different inputs for it (I also ironically can't do it frame by frame in debug, just in real time). That could've been because I recorded a tv instead of having the actual game input and I just miscounted the jump on frame 3 instead of frame 4, but I did count the same frame on over half a dozen of them so it might just be a little lenient.

Unless I'm reading it wrong this wiki page says that after you drop from the ledge you have 29 frames of intangibility AFTER you let go, so I guess I got wikipedia'd? This is still the one thing I'm confused on http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall

I got the extra 2 frames from thinking you could drop from ledge one frame earlier than you can, and I guess from counting the frame before a move comes out as the first actionable frame.

So yeah this seems to be 11 frames lol. Thanks for looking into it Duck

He said he's not gonna use it but personally I think it looks cool, is easier to consistently get the 11 frames than an AI for me, and has slightly less of a visual cue lol. Up to the player if it's the same though. Cheers for checking this out
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
Unless I'm reading it wrong this wiki page says that after you drop from the ledge you have 29 frames of intangibility AFTER you let go, so I guess I got wikipedia'd? This is still the one thing I'm confused on http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall
I think it works something like this: When you grab ledge, you'll be intangible during the 7 (3 with link/yl) frames of CliffCatch as long as it doesn't get interrupted. Then on CliffWait 0 you get 30 frames of intangibility (counting the CliffWait 0 as one of those frames) which remain if you interrupt the CliffWait . The intangibility isn't tied to you dropping, it starts at CliffWait 0.
 
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Litt

Samus
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Feb 2, 2013
Messages
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Location
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Talked with Duck and spent some time in the debug menu. Pretty sure he was right about it being 11 frames although I did count different inputs for it (I also ironically can't do it frame by frame in debug, just in real time). That could've been because I recorded a tv instead of having the actual game input and I just miscounted the jump on frame 3 instead of frame 4, but I did count the same frame on over half a dozen of them so it might just be a little lenient.

Unless I'm reading it wrong this wiki page says that after you drop from the ledge you have 29 frames of intangibility AFTER you let go, so I guess I got wikipedia'd? This is still the one thing I'm confused on http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall

I got the extra 2 frames from thinking you could drop from ledge one frame earlier than you can, and I guess from counting the frame before a move comes out as the first actionable frame.

So yeah this seems to be 11 frames lol. Thanks for looking into it Duck

He said he's not gonna use it but personally I think it looks cool, is easier to consistently get the 11 frames than an AI for me, and has slightly less of a visual cue lol. Up to the player if it's the same though. Cheers for checking this out
The reason duck isnt going to use it is because of consistency, this tech is a tighter window to practice than Aerial Interrupt and is only useable on one stage out of all the tournament viable stages. Just put the time in to learn the hax dash, its more fun anyway :D
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
I think it works something like this: When you grab ledge, you'll be intangible during the 7 (3 with link/yl) frames of CliffCatch as long as it doesn't get interrupted. Then on CliffWait 0 you get 30 frames of intangibility (counting the CliffWait 0 as one of those frames) which remain if you interrupt the CliffWait . The intangibility isn't tied to you dropping, it starts at CliffWait 0.
That's what I understood from the wiki page, but after asking a couple people and going through the debug menu it looks like the wiki is wrong on that? I guess this is why teachers tell you not to use it as a source all the time lol. From what I can tell it's how I thought before and you get 30 starting in cliffcatch so you really have just 22 to act. BUT then it gets into how you have 29 frames before you can grab ledge again after letting go, which is what the wiki page is about with invincible ledge stalling which wouldn't work if you only had 22 frames to play with....so I have no idea haha
 

Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
The reason duck isnt going to use it is because of consistency, this tech is a tighter window to practice than Aerial Interrupt and is only useable on one stage out of all the tournament viable stages. Just put the time in to learn the hax dash, its more fun anyway :D
I get that for sure, especially if you already have consistent AI's, but this actually isn't too hard to do. Unless I'm trying to do turnaround f-tilt, which is crazy hard, I can do them like 80% of the time already when I'm warmed up. One less input for the c-stick actually makes it easier for me to act out of it right away but yeah, it's definitely not necessary to learn.

Are you talking about AI haxdashes with samus? That's a thing right?
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
That's what I understood from the wiki page, but after asking a couple people and going through the debug menu it looks like the wiki is wrong on that? I guess this is why teachers tell you not to use it as a source all the time lol. From what I can tell it's how I thought before and you get 30 starting in cliffcatch so you really have just 22 to act. BUT then it gets into how you have 29 frames before you can grab ledge again after letting go, which is what the wiki page is about with invincible ledge stalling which wouldn't work if you only had 22 frames to play with....so I have no idea haha
The wikipage was edited by Kadano, it's trustworthy, though maybe worded weird. Also you definitely don't gain the staying intangibility during CliffCatch, because if the CliffCatch gets interrupted by Randall for example, you won't be intangible after.
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
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Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
The wikipage was edited by Kadano, it's trustworthy, though maybe worded weird. Also you definitely don't gain the staying intangibility during CliffCatch, because if the CliffCatch gets interrupted by Randall for example, you won't be intangible after.
This is what I'm hung up on:
"...will have complete intangibility that lasts 30 frames longer than the CliffCatch animation."
"The character now has 29 frames of intangibility left that can be used freely."

That just doesn't seem right to me?
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
You can't ledge-drop on the frame on which the 30 frame intangibility period starts after CliffCatch. That's why it says there is 29 frame period where you can act freely.
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
You can't ledge-drop on the frame on which the 30 frame intangibility period starts after CliffCatch. That's why it says there is 29 frame period where you can act freely.
I get that, I meant it should really say 22 since you have to wait on the ledge for 7 frames, right?
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
No, because you get 30 frames intangibility that starts after CliffCatch in addition to the intangibility during CliffCatch. As it says in the article, the total intangible period is 30 frames longer than the CliffCatch, so it's 37 frames in most cases.
 
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Champloo

Smash Cadet
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Jan 5, 2016
Messages
32
No, because you get 30 frames intangibility that starts after CliffCatch in addition to the intangibility during CliffCatch. As it says in the article, the total intangible period is 30 frames longer than the CliffCatch, so it's 37 frames in most cases.
Ahhh went through it frame by frame in debug mode again and you're right. lol I'm a dummy. When I was watching the tech back in the videos I took, I counted 11-12 frames from the ledge to being actionable on stage on over a dozen of them. I accounted for a couple frame drops but I guess my phone camera consistently dropped almost half the frames even though it would pretty often have 3 frames of video frozen on the same in-game frame. Coincidentally the numbers were adding up with 22-11=11 frames invulnerability. Lesson learned haha
 
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