Implications of Richter's Horrible Grab

[circuspig]

Hey.

I'll make it short, I've been analyzing SSBU footage for frame data as well as using Zapp Branniglenn's prerelease frame data spreadsheet as a reference these past few months. He includes 60fps sources and it's pretty sound.

His sheet and links confirm that Ultimate (no tether) grabs are similar to Smash 4's in that the first active frame will vary between characters. What dictates this is hard to say. You would think that maybe the bigger characters would have slower grabs, which is somewhat true; [SSBU] Bowser and DK's grabs begin on frame 8 and smaller characters like Mario and Kirby have frame 6 grabs, but there are exceptions and gray areas. Zelda with a frame 10 grab is a slow, more extreme example, but characters like Ike, Bayonetta, and Corrin all have grabs starting at frame 7. Maybe the humanoid or medium sized characters just have frame 7 grabs.. except for the fact that Pit and Ryu have frame 6 grabs and Snake and Cloud have frame 8 grabs. So what gives? Can we agree that if it's not directly correlated with size that it may be closer correlated with character ability or archetype?

If we can agree on that, then it leads me to my main question: Why the hell does Richter's grab start on frame 10???

The Smash Direct footage on Youtube is in 60fps, but the part with the Simon reveal showing the only footage of Simon's standing grab (1:37) is clearly not, so it is tricky to determine the frame his grab is active. Richter's is in his character trailer, however.

The obvious assumption is that Simon and Richter are supposed to be long-range zoners and that their grabs aren't supposed to be any good. I guess I figured his grab would be quick to help him with the presumed issue of struggling with rushdown or aggression at close-quarters. I'm willing to accept that, but still.. frame 10? Thoughts???

 

[RonNewcomb]

Slow powerful characters have slow grabs, zoners have slower grabs than CQC monsters, and Belmont is a slow zoner. It's both categories not just one that determines base grab startup.

But there's modifiers on top of that. SF and MG both have grabs in their core gameplay loop, so their reps Ryu and Snake have better than base despite both being heavies with projectiles.

Duck Hunt Dog's Smash gameplay is zoning + throw into can, so his is better because it's core to his style; he lacks KO moves as a balance. Pit is same.

Belmont is right where I expect him to be.

 

[circuspig]

Slow powerful characters have slow grabs, zoners have slower grabs than CQC monsters, and Belmont is a slow zoner. It's both categories not just one that determines base grab startup.

Not just one what? I had already said archetype.

But there's modifiers on top of that. SF and MG both have grabs in their core gameplay loop, so their reps Ryu and Snake have better than base despite both being heavies with projectiles.

I don't know what you mean by better than base.

Duck Hunt Dog's Smash gameplay is zoning + throw into can, so his is better because it's core to his style; he lacks KO moves as a balance. Pit is same.

You'll have to elaborate on Pit.

Overall there's not much additional use for this thread other than for me to complain about the negligible fact that Richter has a 10 frame grab, but I'm still surprised.

Is Marth anywhere near a slow zoner? His grab is frame 6. Is R.O.B. a slow zoner? His grab is frame 6. Are Chrom/Roy slow zoners? Their grab is frame 7. Is Robin a slow zoner? His grab is frame 7. Is DeDeDe a slow zoner? His grab is frame 8. Is King a slow zoner? His grab is frame 8.

 

[Korrin]

Not just one what? I had already said archetype.


I don't know what you mean by better than base.


You'll have to elaborate on Pit.

Overall there's not much additional use for this thread other than for me to complain about the negligible fact that Richter has a 10 frame grab, but I'm still surprised.

Is Marth anywhere near a slow zoner? His grab is frame 6. Is R.O.B. a slow zoner? His grab is frame 6. Are Chrom/Roy slow zoners? Their grab is frame 7. Is Robin a slow zoner? His grab is frame 7. Is DeDeDe a slow zoner? His grab is frame 8. Is King a slow zoner? His grab is frame 8.

Marth, Roy/Chrom and R.O.B. are not slow zoners. Marth and R.O.B. are zoners but they aren't slow. They are all fairly quick infact. Plus, Roy/Chrom arent considered zoners.
Also I think when RonNewcomb talked about pit he ment that pits grab is a main part of his kit so it needs to be good.

 

[circuspig]

Marth is definitely a stretch, I only considered him in that realm at all because of the nature of swordfighters' cooldown with the majority of their attacks but yeah, I take it back.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Not just one what? I had already said archetype.

Axis. There's the attack speed vs attack power axis , and the close range vs far range axis. The two combined determines your base startup. A strong but slow fighter that is also a distance fighter will have the worst base startup.

you'll have to elaborate on Pit.

The above poster explained.

Is Marth anywhere near a slow zoner? His grab is frame 6. Is R.O.B. a slow zoner? His grab is frame 6. Are Chrom/Roy slow zoners? Their grab is frame 7. Is Robin a slow zoner? His grab is frame 7. Is DeDeDe a slow zoner? His grab is frame 8. Is King a slow zoner? His grab is frame 8.

The slow zoners are Zelda, Link, Samus, and Robin. Zelda is frame 10. Tether grabbers are way worse. Robin is the outlier. But he has the slowest ground speed in the game and no grab range, and his tilts are poor, for a swordie. He can't even keep Luigi out by standing his ground and swinging his sword.

 

[circuspig]

Thanks for stopping by!