I'm starting to dislike tournament rules.

[SSBB_is_Epic]

It also has the least consistent results.

That certainly hasn't stopped millions of people from playing it professionally.

I'm also not saying to allow for poker-level luck in competitive Brawl though. But would it really hurt to put items on Very Low instead of off?

I mean, why not leave just a smidgen of the competition to chance?


edit- to the guy above me: poker is still widely based around luck. The professional players have EVERYTHING under control once their cards are dealt, but the cards they end up with are pure luck.

 

[thesage]

With all this attendance, and all this popularity across all of North America (Can't forget about Canada too!) and all these figures involving sales for the game.... why hasn't or why won't Smash become part of the Pro Circuit at MLG?

To me it seems like the next step for Smash Brawl would be for it to become officially sanctioned by the MLG and join the Pro Circuit along with it's other titles.... Yet evidence and some previous posts state that it won't happen..

Care to shed some light?

It was... There was a topic about it not so long ago. Basically it was dropped mysteriously after Microsoft started to sponsor MLG. MLG still does sponsor some tournaments though (such as Pound 2) and they were probably how Pound 2 was advertised in Nintendo Power. Expect another advertisement in it soon (unless MLG got in trouble).

 

[sugarpoultry]

I mean, why not leave just a smidgen of the competition to chance?

Because the whole point of a competition is to go off skill.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm also not saying to allow for poker-level luck in competitive Brawl though. But would it really hurt to put items on Very Low instead of off?

I mean, why not leave just a smidgen of the competition to chance?

Why would we want ANYTHING left to chance? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Card]

to the guy above me: poker is still widely based around luck. The professional players have EVERYTHING under control once their cards are dealt, but the cards they end up with are pure luck.

The example you give is actually a perfect comparison to the current tournament rules. There are a variety of random stages which the users have to play on. Some characters have distinct advantages on certain levels (ex: Falco on Final Destination). Yet once the stage has been randomly chosen, the players have EVERYTHING under their control once the match has begun, but the stage they end up in is pure luck.

This is why Poker should not be compared with a Fighting Video Game.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Why would we want ANYTHING left to chance? That makes absolutely no sense.

Agreed.

Seriously, if you win simply by chance, you have no bragging rights. And if you win a lot of money, you don't deserve it.

You work to earn your reward. It's the way life works. Nobody gets their rewards handed to them on a platter, unless it's gambling. But who wants to take that risk...

This is why Poker should not be compared with a Fighting Video Game.

Exactly.

 

[SSBB_is_Epic]

Because the whole point of a competition is to go off skill.

I fully understand that.

What I don't understand is why we have the idea ingrained in our mind's that if we make the competitors deal with any amount of action that can't be directly controlled in a match that we're suddenly wiping out the skill that's involved. Is it really that crazy to think that preparing and knowing how to deal with the random factors of a match is a skill in and of itself in the same way that a poker player has to know how to deal with a bad hand of cards?


Ideally, I'd like the option to turn barrels/crates/capsules off. I don't think many would be against competitive matches with items once randomly exploding boxes are removed from the equation.

 

[WastingPenguins]

If you're going to make the poker comparison, you have to consider how different the games are. For instance-- in a game of poker, a skilled player has the opportunity to realize that they are outmatched and fold their hand. In Smash Bros., if your opponent grabs a recently spawned bomb and is about to use it to edge-guard you to death, there's definitely no way to "fold".

But yeah, what Mookie said. Just because a lot of people in the world prefer games of chance doesn't mean that we do. Some people want the results of a competition to reflect their skill.

Is it really that crazy to think that preparing and knowing how to deal with the random factors of a match is a skill in and of itself in the same way that a poker player has to know how to deal with a bad hand of cards?

Do you play poker at all, or better yet, watch high-level poker competition on TV? If you did, you would realize that poker players, even the best of the best of the best, frequently DON'T deal well with a bad hand of cards. Sometimes they even read and play a hand perfectly and lose anyway! This is why results are so inconsistent, and why the best player at the table will often still lose the game. Sorry, but poker and other games of chance are a different animal altogether.

 

[SSBB_is_Epic]

The example you give is actually a perfect comparison to the current tournament rules. There are a variety of random stages which the users have to play on. Some characters have distinct advantages on certain levels (ex: Falco on Final Destination). Yet once the stage has been randomly chosen, the players have EVERYTHING under their control once the match has begun, but the stage they end up in is pure luck.

This is why Poker should not be compared with a Fighting Video Game.

This seems to counteract Mookie's idea that NOTHING should be left to chance and I take it that he is an avid competitor in tournaments. So I would just like everyones stance on this, should there be a small amount of luck involved in tournaments which requires the player to prepare for and calculate the appropriate means of action when these random happenings face them or should the tournaments be as "fair" as possible and allow for no chance or luck?

Also, I'd just like to say that I hope I'm not coming off as a "troll". It is in no way my intention. I just hope that having a differing opinion doesn't get me lambasted as a troll.

 

[sugarpoultry]

You are not a troll, don't worry about it.

 

[MookieRah]

Nobody gets their rewards handed to them on a platter, unless it's gambling. But who wants to take that risk...

Unless your last name is... oh, I dunno, maybe Bush. XD.

Also, even if there was a way to remove the barrels/capsules from melee, I'm sure the competitive scene would have evolved to not use items. I site the fact that half of the US played without items for a while before that became a nationwide rule.

This seems to counteract Mookie's idea that NOTHING should be left to chance and I take it that he is an avid competitor in tournaments.

I'd like the record to state that I was for the concept of designating a single neutral before the first round of a match. Either that or randomly selecting the stage that is neutral and then choose your characters. I think that is something that would only help.

 

[Card]

This seems to counteract Mookie's idea that NOTHING should be left to chance and I take it that he is an avid competitor in tournaments. So I would just like everyones stance on this, should there be a small amount of luck involved in tournaments which requires the player to prepare for and calculate the appropriate means of action when these random happenings face them or should the tournaments be as "fair" as possible and allow for no chance or luck?

Also, I'd just like to say that I hope I'm not coming off as a "troll". It is in no way my intention. I just hope that having a differing opinion doesn't get me lambasted as a troll.

I think you misunderstood...

Right now you are in the position for turning items on, since it will add that extra "flare" to the game. It was then you made a comparison to Poker.... where in your example you said "Once the Cards have been dealt, the players have complete control"

What I am actually making a comparison to is your statement... it is an exact parallel of what the current tournament scene is. So perhaps you've got a very misinformed and skewed view on the actual tournament scene?


(and no, you aren't being a Troll as long as you stand your ground and defend your stance with evidence and facts )

 

[Venom Dream]

I know this is something no one wants to hear, but

If you have to heavily alter a game in order to play it in a tourniment setting... maybe it shouldn't be a tourniment game.

 

[thesage]

I know this is something no one wants to hear, but

If you have to heavily alter a game in order to play it in a tourniment setting... maybe it shouldn't be a tourniment game.

How is it heavily altering a game? It depends on the original playstyle you played with before you went competitive... I already banned most of the banned stages before I got into competitive smash, and I didn't play with items, and I played with 5 stock (not much of a difference from 4 stock...). It's the same game really, just played at different levels with different mindsets, like almost every other competitive fighter (in regards to the difference between casual vs. standard rulesets...).

Plus the options to play that way are there. It's not like one has to use AR or something...

 

[EDreams]

I know this is something no one wants to hear, but

If you have to heavily alter a game in order to play it in a tourniment setting... maybe it shouldn't be a tourniment game.

Well, there goes every tournament and sports game in existence then.

 

[Ixninjax]

I know this is something no one wants to hear, but

If you have to heavily alter a game in order to play it in a tourniment setting... maybe it shouldn't be a tourniment game.

considering the fact that there is no preset way to play the game, we really aren't altering anything at all.

 

[Tatsujinken]

considering the fact that there is no preset way to play the game, we really aren't altering anything at all.

Exactly right. The game has options for a reason.

 

[Venom Dream]

considering the fact that there is no preset way to play the game, we really aren't altering anything at all.

Oh? So you don't think Sakurai, and whoever else is working on this game at Nintendo, has to ask of every idea they have, "But what would the Competitive community think of that?" Yes altering the game. Though indirectly.
They've proved they listen to their fans, and that has as much an upside as it does a downside.

 

[Ixninjax]

Oh? So you don't think Sakurai, and whoever else is working on this game at Nintendo, has to ask of every idea they have, "But what would the Competitive community think of that?" Yes altering the game. Though indirectly.
They've proved they listen to their fans, and that has as much an upside as it does a downside.

Unless sakurai himself has told you that he wants you to play a certain way, I would not make such an assumption.

 

[Venom Dream]

All I'm saying is, there's probably been some amazing, creative, fun ideas that have been scrapped because it would ruin tournament gameplay or change the game too dramatically from its current form. Even the things that made the cut I've seen some complaining about, like ZSS. Imagine if they had not included that because they knew some people on Smashboards wouldn't like it.

There are probably just as many positive things that have come from that influence. I'm really not complaining, I might never even own Brawl myself (a Wii does not look like it's going to be in my near future). It was just a thought

 

[SSBB_is_Epic]

I think you misunderstood...

Right now you are in the position for turning items on, since it will add that extra "flare" to the game. It was then you made a comparison to Poker.... where in your example you said "Once the Cards have been dealt, the players have complete control"

What I am actually making a comparison to is your statement... it is an exact parallel of what the current tournament scene is. So perhaps you've got a very misinformed and skewed view on the actual tournament scene?


(and no, you aren't being a Troll as long as you stand your ground and defend your stance with evidence and facts )

The poker analogy was meant to be taken more indirectly. It was a way of suggesting that a bit more "flare" wouldn't necessarily detract from the amount of skill that is needed to beat your opponent. What I'm really trying to get at here is that I think having a bit more of a random factor to the tournaments doesn't directly negate the amount of skill that is needed to defeat your opponent.

As I said earlier, isn't preparing for and knowing how to react when a random event occurs a skill in itself? Obviously you don't want to go crazy with the rules and have star-man on very high matches, but are Mr. Saturn's on very low really going to detract from the players ability to beat their opponent with skill?

If the tournament scene allows for a small tolerance of randomness regarding stages, why not do the same with items? Moderation is good.

 

[Red Exodus]

The poker analogy was meant to be taken more indirectly. It was a way of suggesting that a bit more "flare" wouldn't necessarily detract from the amount of skill that is needed to beat your opponent. What I'm really trying to get at here is that I think having a bit more of a random factor to the tournaments doesn't directly negate the amount of skill that is needed to defeat your opponent.

As I said earlier, isn't preparing for and knowing how to react when a random event occurs a skill in itself? Obviously you don't want to go crazy with the rules and have star-man on very high matches, but are Mr. Saturn's on very low really going to detract from the players ability to beat their opponent with skill?

If the tournament scene allows for a small tolerance of randomness regarding stages, why not do the same with items? Moderation is good.

Not with such a large investment of time involved. I absolutely hate games with luck. I've played horrible luck based MMORPGs [like Runescape, that piece of ****] and the last thing I want is my time wasted on skill undermined by luck. I have terrible terrible luck, so I know what I'm taking about.

I live in the Carribean and I'd really hate to travel halfway across the world [which costs money] to enter a tournament [which costs money] to get beaten because of some random capsule landing on me during a combo.


Also I play Samus, and with items on DMC is almost useless because stuff lands in the path of the missiles all the time. It's very annoying and cripples her approaches.

 

[AlphaZealot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCVT9GNMgZ4

One of the few levels left on for tournament play that still has a random factor in it is Kongo Jungle. Personally I think this stage should be gotten rid of but there are people in the community who still think that the random factor on this stage is negligible. In this match, at around the 3:04 mark, Mew2King gets killed at 12% by the clap trap. It was a tied game before this happened, with each player holding 2 stocks. Mew2King had no way of predicting or avoiding the claptrap, and because of this random factor Mew2King lost the match. Now just imagine that this was game 5 of the finals and would decide who would win $2000 or $1000.

As I said earlier, isn't preparing for and knowing how to react when a random event occurs a skill in itself?

Watch the match and tell me how Mew2King could have reacted differently. More importantly though, also watch the match and count the number of times Bum was in a similar position on the level but was NOT hit by the claptrap.

You can't compare Smash and poker as has been stated many times. The random factors in the two games are entirely different elements (I don't mean their physical form, but how they function).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

But (theoretically) you can SDI the claptrap, so it isn't quite as big of a deal. That's why the Claptrap is nicknamed "Skill."

Although, in the position M2K was in, SDI wouldn't have helped.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Doesn't the KlapTrap have to get stuck in the moving barrel first?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Doesn't the KlapTrap have to get stuck in the moving barrel first?

What? Did you even watch the video?

 

[flyinfilipino]

What? Did you even watch the video?

Sorry, the compooter I'm currently on refuses to load videos right. Whenever I've seen the KlapTrap kill, it falls into the barrel first, and then moves back and forth for a while before popping back out. But if this video I can't see shows something else, I apologize.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Wrong level. Picture the one with three long platforms, all roughly level each other, over a raging river. Your thinking of the one with the water fall. I get them confused all the time too, so no worries.

I like using examples because it helps illustrate the point and is much more difficult to refute. Anyone who watches that match can agree that the outcome was essentially determined because of the claptrap, therefor a random element basically determined the result of the match. If you get hit by the clap trap the only thing you can really hope for is to be sent into the stage so you can tech...but that doesn't always happen and even if it did the tech is super difficult to land.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If you get hit by the clap trap the only thing you can really hope for is to be sent into the stage so you can tech...but that doesn't always happen and even if it did the tech is super difficult to land.

It's especially hard to land because of the whole "pressing L during the hitlag will prevent you from teching" thing.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I have family in town right now.

I'll be back for this discussion later.

Brawl will probably adapt in a similar fashion. Items, no matter how "balanced", will most likely go the way of the Dodo in competition.

 

[Red Exodus]

Unless we get people to host item and non item tournaments [which item rules of course]. Then everybody wins ^^

 

[WastingPenguins]

Unless we get people to host item and non item tournaments [which item rules of course]. Then everybody wins ^^

People could do that already with Melee. Funny thing-- no one does. I think that says it all, really.

And kudos to the guy who posted that Bum/M2k vid with the Klap Trap death. GREAT example of the kind of **** that happens when you play on wacky levels with wacky items, and (pay attention here) its exactly the opposite of fun imo. If it sounds fun to you, then play that way, but please don't pretend it's conducive to fair competition.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I HOSTED AN ITEM TOURNEY LAST NIGHT XD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was at a mini-smash fest(only 12 smashers were there) we turned off some of the more broken items(healing, invincibility and the BAT-alizer) and we set them to low. Turns out its pretty fun, just waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to random. We had SIX deaths by explosives but people had fun. There wasn't alot of money on the line so most people didn't care about the random deaths(except my friend who had three of the six explosive deaths XD) So yeah, I won't deny that it was fun, but I will say I don't suggest holding an item tournament if your going to put alot of money on the line, **** can be random.

 

[sugarpoultry]

So who won and how much? Nobody complained when something random killed them?

 

[Pink Reaper]

So who won and how much? Nobody complained when something random killed them?

My friend Nick(he has no smash name) won, only about $30 but it was just a spur of the moment thing so we didn't put in much money. Yeah some people complained when they got killed by random things, but it wasn't THAT serious of a tournament so it wasn't that big of a deal anyways. Although I will say this, I made it to the finals and I died because I got hit with a screw ball while I was off the stage and lost all of my jumps. This made me angry -.- But it evened out because he was killed on Corneria by a barrel that spawned on the fin and rolled into him and exploded. Twas funny.

 

[Red Exodus]

I saw a dude get dthrowed [the character that threw lifted off the ground] into a barrel rolling down Corneria. That was funny, but that kinda stuff would make me eat my controller if it happened too often.

I'm gonna look out for tournaments here but I doubt I'll find any, if I do they will probably suck.

 

[thesage]

I love counterpicking jungle japes with Ness. How can you say it's going to be banned???? T.T

Oh well, back to greens greens + yyg for me....

 

[Radical Dreamer]

LOL at trying to measure Smash's respectability by other fighting games and its corresponding Japanese scene. You can see this lame attitude among a lot of the losers at SRK who hate on Smash for no real reason and it's pretty ridiculous. The Smash scene in the US is flat-out just way more popular and thriving than Virtua Fighter, Tekken, CvS2, KOF, Guilty Gear and even Street Fighter COMBINED. In the US, these games are practically dead compared to competitive Smash. The only fighting game that has Smash's popularity is Marvel...coincidentally the one that happens to have basically no competitive scene in Japan. Not like the Smash scene in Japan doesn't exist. Ketubato 7 through 14 were all this year, although I don't know how many total entrants they had.

At Evo this year, five of the eight games on the lineup had rulesets that banned characters. Smash wasn't one of them.

 

[Mike G]

LOL at trying to measure Smash's respectability by other fighting games and its corresponding Japanese scene. You can see this lame attitude among a lot of the losers at SRK who hate on Smash for no real reason and it's pretty ridiculous. The Smash scene in the US is flat-out just way more popular and thriving than Virtua Fighter, Tekken, CvS2, KOF, Guilty Gear and even Street Fighter COMBINED. In the US, these games are practically dead compared to competitive Smash. The only fighting game that has Smash's popularity is Marvel...coincidentally the one that happens to have basically no competitive scene in Japan. Not like the Smash scene in Japan doesn't exist. Ketubato 7 through 14 were all this year, although I don't know how many total entrants they had.

At Evo this year, five of the eight games on the lineup had rulesets that banned characters. Smash wasn't one of them.

Amen, brotha


this is exactly what I wanted to say to that "smash doesnt seem good enough for the rest of the fighting game community" guy.

Its bad enough that we have peeps that hate on us because we play a certain way. but then I remember lots of fools at SRK that hate on us because "smash is too kiddy for tournies"


when will it ever end?

 

[MookieRah]

Its bad enough that we have peeps that hate on us because we play a certain way. but then I remember lots of fools at SRK that hate on us because "smash is too kiddy for tournies"

Mike, do you remember the first MLG Atlanta? It was back with Soul Calibur was on MLG's roster. There were a bunch of guys bashing smash that day, but then one dude stuck around and talked to some people and realized how crazy smash was. I think a lot of the "hardcore" fighting crowd doesn't look past the kiddy characters to realize how competitive the game can be.

At this point, they can't really make fun of us, cause as it has been stated we outnumber ALL of their games combined in the amount of people in the community. Ironically, they are scrubs for writing off the game as "kiddy" and not giving it a chance.