I'm starting to dislike tournament rules.

[RDK]

SSBM only JUST got into EVO this last year. That would have been saying something, were it not for the fact that, since it came in along with Mario Kart DS and Hyper Street Fighter 2, it probably did more to showcase how EVO has been "selling out" than anything else.

The fact that SSBM tournaments are active at EVO doesn't really say a lot. Shoryuken.com and EVO's community in general is a terrible community, and the tournaments aren't all that great, either.

 

[CyberBenX4]

The fact that SSBM tournaments are active at EVO doesn't really say a lot. Shoryuken.com and EVO's community in general is a terrible community, and the tournaments aren't all that great, either.

Mostly correct...however, it wasn't always like that. A few years ago, that would not have been the case, as EVO was a respected tournament, that was at one time comparable to Japan's SBO. The infamous "Daigo Parry moment" happened at EVO, and it single-handedly was one of the things that jump-started 3S's scene in the US, after numerous years of the game being fairly under-played.

Now, especially after 2007, it's just a mere shadow of its former self. But for the tournaments of the games that still pull in hardcore fighters (3S, T5, ST, VF, CvS2) you can often still see some great matches.

 

[MookieRah]

Oh, but there are, actually. For instance, some games, like 2D games such as Guilty Gear XX, pretty much ban some stages, because of either a) stages that have weird cornering issues with a certain player in one corner or the other or b) they're just dis-orienting to play (see Boss I-No's stage with the psychedelics, and hard to find edges. Then there was always cases, like in 3D fighters like Soul Calibur, where some stages were banned because the slow-down caused unwelcome lag.

So, to make it simple, some stages are just banned; no questions asked, no discussion warranted, and it's universal for any tournament. If they can do it, certainly, Smash's following can do the same.

Well no, it's not as easy as that. For those games they have obvious clear cut reasons for those stages to be banned. Most if not all the stages are virtually the same thing with a different environment. Smash stages are not like this. They are much more complex and affect the gameplay tremendously. The thing though, is that all the smashboards tournaments contain virtually the same stages. The most important stages, the neutral stages, are the same at every tournament worth going to. The only variety in stages you will see is with counterpicks, and in the realm of counterpicks there are only about 3-4 stages that are borderline and the variety I refer to are whether or not these small handful of stages are banned or not.

So for the most part, the rules are standardized.

 

[RDK]

About banning stages.....to be honest, I really wouldn't mind at all if the only stage allowed in tournies was FD. If you're going to make something fair, might as well make it as fair as possible.

^ Eliminates counterpicking FTW.

 

[MookieRah]

About banning stages.....to be honest, I really wouldn't mind at all if the only stage allowed in tournies was FD. If you're going to make something fair, might as well make it as fair as possible.

^ Eliminates counterpicking FTW.

That would further imbalance the game. Like... man, that would be really bad. Even the Japanese players had Dreamland to supplement FD. I honestly would rather have a decent amount of variety, and with the current ruleset things work out pretty well.

 

[CyberBenX4]

To me though, the same rules for others can just as well apply. FD is all you need, if you just want a fair playing field with no fuss, no muss, and it's just character v. character. You didn't need any thing else. So why fluff it up needlessly?

The whole thing about "counter-picks" never set well with me, personally.

That would further imbalance the game. Like... man, that would be really bad. Even the Japanese players had Dreamland to supplement FD. I honestly would rather have a decent amount of variety, and with the current ruleset things work out pretty well.

EDIT: But that would be some what of a conflict of interest, in my opinion. The aim is to try and keep things on a level playing field, but that's gone immediately when you go for anything other than FD. Then again, that ends up being more of an issue due to the game being imbalanced itself...

But, eh, I digress. Once again, I'm more looking forward to the hope that Brawl/X will do more to try and create the ideal level ground. If X can at least do more to try and be the "Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo" of the Smash lineage, that would make me happy.

 

[I T I]

To me though, the same rules can just as well apply. FD is all you need, if you just want a fair playing field with no fuss, no muss, and it's just character v. character. You didn't need any thing else. So why fluff it up needlessly?

The whole thing about "counter-picks" never set well with me, personally.

FD isn't even close to balanced.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

To me though, the same rules can just as well apply. FD is all you need, if you just want a fair playing field with no fuss, no muss, and it's just character v. character. You didn't need any thing else. So why fluff it up needlessly?

The whole thing about "counter-picks" never set well with me, personally.

Final Destination only seems the most fair (in that there are no hazards, platforms, or other distractions). However, experience has shown that certain characters have huge advantages on completely flat terrain. Personally, I love the counter pick system. It works beautifully and still yields the truly best players at every event. We may "dislike randomness", but we sure don't mind have the odds explicitly stacked against us. ^_^

 

[RDK]

Final Destination only seems the most fair (in that there are no hazards, platforms, or other distractions). However, experience has shown that certain characters have huge advantages on completely flat terrain. Personally, I love the counter pick system. It works beautifully and still yields the truly best players at every event. We may "dislike randomness", but we sure don't mind have the odds explicitly stacked against us. ^_^

Main Doc at tournaments and play a Fox on retro Kirby's Dreamland and you'll know what we're talking about.

FD isn't even close to balanced.

^ [chan]lol wut[/chan]

 

[Pink Reaper]

To me though, the same rules can just as well apply. FD is all you need, if you just want a fair playing field with no fuss, no muss, and it's just character v. character. You didn't need any thing else. So why fluff it up needlessly?

The whole thing about "counter-picks" never set well with me, personally.

Try explaining to any Kirby player that FD is balanced. I hate that stage, I BAN that stage, it's only fair if you think of it as a stage for OTHER fighting games. You have to remember that Smash isn't your traditional 2D fighter, there is HUGE amounts of projectile spam that you have to consider. I've always actually considered Dream Land 64 to be the most balanced stage as it has no(really bad) obstacles and it gives both the ability to spam and avoid spam. FD is overrated.

 

[orintemple]

Try explaining to any Kirby player that FD is balanced. I hate that stage, I BAN that stage, it's only fair if you think of it as a stage for OTHER fighting games. You have to remember that Smash isn't your traditional 2D fighter, there is HUGE amounts of projectile spam that you have to consider. I've always actually considered Dream Land 64 to be the most balanced stage as it has no(really bad) obstacles and it gives both the ability to spam and avoid spam. FD is overrated.

Exactly. FD only has an illusion of balance. It still gives massive advantages to certain characters over other. Kirby has no real approaches, and in such a long flat stage with nothing around he has no chance to approach at all. Captain Falcon is a god in FD. It is so wide and open he can run all over the place without being restricted by anything. Samus is another that has an advantage. She can fire missiles from way the hell away without anything being in the way. Same with Fox/Falco and laser camping. It may seem fair, but it really isn't. All stages have their advantages and disadvantages and is why counter-picking is necessary. If you are bad in FD then you can at least counter-pick a stage you are good in.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Why would anyone dislike tournament rules when they are more fair? Why wouldn't anyone want a fair fight?

 

[CyberBenX4]

Final Destination only seems the most fair (in that there are no hazards, platforms, or other distractions). However, experience has shown that certain characters have huge advantages on completely flat terrain. Personally, I love the counter pick system. It works beautifully and still yields the truly best players at every event. We may "dislike randomness", but we sure don't mind have the odds explicitly stacked against us. ^_^

Hm, I guess.

That just brings me to one last question...if you don't mind randomness in such regards like what counter-picks, Peach's random vegetable picks and things of that nature which just can't hope to be "controlled" in any shape or form bring to the table, where does one draw the line effectively?

I mean, it goes without saying that a large number of fighting games throughout history have had randomness about it. Even the venerable SSF2T had some completely random aspects that couldn't hope to be controlled (some combos would dizzy in 3 hits on a good day, but may never do such a thing on another try within the same round). Yet, those of us who played such games are/were able to wheel and deal in spite of such things.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: "Might it be possible for Smash to become better suited to be able to better deal with those random elements?"

I suppose that question will have to wait for Brawl's release. But I'm just saying...what if the case was to arrive that, for instance, Peach was able to pull out Smash Balls out of the ground, at a least an interval of 1/225? That certainly would make for...a most interesting thing to consider, if it were indeed a real possibility.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Also, no one should ever compare smash to other fighting games. In most fighting games, the two fighters face each other and have an extremely limited range of movement. I think the whole "hold back to block" concept annoyed me the most. I want moving backward and blocking to be completely distinct functions!

I love smash. Being able to move freely about the stage is golden. It is so much more fun being able to zip around rather than stare the opponent down the entire match. I cannot think of any other fighter with this much freedom (except for the occasional party game wannabe clones). As a result, Final Destination is (as orintemple said) an illusion of balance. Most games involve an extremely simple/plain arena, so it is only natural to assume Final Destination is "perfect".

As for Peach and her vegetables, the randomness to it "wears off" rather quickly. This is not some exploding capsule spawning in an inconvenient location. The item appears willfully at Peach's location, and the draw time is large enough to anticipate what the item is. So, while the item selection is indeed random, it does not throw the game out of balance and grant Peach a ridiculous advantage. Sure, she sometimes draws bob-bombs, but the opponent has time to see it before anything bad happens. I hope that makes sense. I can elaborate if the need arises.

 

[RDK]

Why would anyone dislike tournament rules when they are more fair? Why wouldn't anyone want a fair fight?

This is exactly what I say.

I don't get it when casual Smashers BAWWW about tourney rules being dumb and restricting. They should be forced to play a money match against a Fox on Yoshi's Story.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Hm, I guess.

That just brings me to one last question...if you don't mind randomness in such regards like what counter-picks, Peach's random vegetable picks and things of that nature which just can't hope to be "controlled" in any shape or form bring to the table, where does one draw the line effectively?

I mean, it goes without saying that a large number of fighting games throughout history have had randomness about it. Even the venerable SSF2T had some completely random aspects that couldn't hope to be controlled (some combos would dizzy in 3 hits on a good day, but may never do such a thing on another try within the same round). Yet, those of us who played such games are/were able to wheel and deal in spite of such things.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: "Might it be possible for Smash to become better suited to be able to better deal with those random elements?"

I suppose that question will have to wait for Brawl's release. But I'm just saying...what if the case was to arrive that, for instance, Peach was able to pull out Smash Balls out of the ground, at a least an interval of 1/225? That certainly would make for...a most interesting thing to consider, if it were indeed a real possibility.

Well thats the thing, if we can't control the element, we learn to deal with it. The fact of the matter is Peach RIGHT NOW can pull out Bob-ombs, which can kill at retardedly low damages, Luigi can Misfire, you could get the invisible roof glitch. To this we have come up with the ultimate solution: No Johns XD

Edit: Peach's FS sucks so much that that wouldn't actually matter >_>

 

[MookieRah]

Edit: Peach's FS sucks so much that that wouldn't actually matter >_>

It may be likely that she will pull the FS out of the ground and it will fly in the air and you'd have to break it like usual, if not you could still pummel it out of her and use it to your advantage before she could set things up to use it effectively more than likely.

 

[CyberBenX4]

Also, no one should ever compare smash to other fighting games. In most fighting games, the two fighters face each other and have an extremely limited range of movement. I think the whole "hold back to block" concept annoyed me the most. I want moving backward and blocking to be completely distinct functions!

I love smash. Being able to move freely about the stage is golden. It is so much more fun being able to zip around rather than stare the opponent down the entire match. I cannot think of any other fighter with this much freedom (except for the occasional party game wannabe clones). As a result, Final Destination is (as orintemple said) an illusion of balance. Most games involve an extremely simple/plain arena, so it is only natural to assume Final Destination is "perfect".

A bit OT, but just a q, buzz: Ya ever give the likes of Virtual ON or Capcom's "Gundam vs." series a fair shot? Sounds like it would be right up your alley, if you dig a fighting game that emphasizes an extensive range of movement, and is certainly not "traditional" to a t.

I would think that these games are also perhaps the only ones that might give light to my general idea of how a game of this type COULD feasibly have a plain area, and yet still be balanced for all the playable/legit-playable characters in such a game...

As for Peach and her vegetables, the randomness to it "wears off" rather quickly. This is not some exploding capsule spawning in an inconvenient location. The item appears willfully at Peach's location, and the draw time is large enough to anticipate what the item is. So, while the item selection is indeed random, it does not throw the game out of balance and grant Peach a ridiculous advantage. Sure, she sometimes draws bob-bombs, but the opponent has time to see it before anything bad happens. I hope that makes sense. I can elaborate if the need arises.

It may be likely that she will pull the FS out of the ground and it will fly in the air and you'd have to break it like usual, if not you could still pummel it out of her and use it to your advantage before she could set things up to use it effectively more than likely.

^ That's what I was getting at. I mean, if Peach could pull out a FS ball out of the ground, might that be grounds for other things to be considered?

But ah well, another time. It was nice talking with you all.

 

[MookieRah]

^ That's what I was getting at. I mean, if Peach could pull out a FS ball out of the ground, might that be grounds for other things to be considered?

I'm not exactly sure what you would want the tournament scene to do about that, I mean it's outside of our hands. At the moment, if that happened it would likely be to the detriment of Peach for a FS to appear, because her's is a bit limited and more than likely her opponent will be better able to use it. Also, it's a good thing that it would be a detriment, cause Peach is seemingly going to be a top character this time around, likely the best.

 

[RDK]

Is there really even discussion about whether or not FS's will be allowed in tourney play? It's quite obvoius, IMO.

 

[sugarpoultry]

I think its pretty obvious they won't be in...

 

[RDK]

I think its pretty obvious they won't be in...

That's what I meant. Sorry if it looked otherwise.

 

[sugarpoultry]

No, I was just agreeing with you.

 

[NES n00b]

So. . . . .I am beginning to dislike Casual rules.

I am going to make a thread about it.

 

[MookieRah]

If Final Smashes are in it would simply be at the first few tournaments to *test* them out. It's obvious they aren't good for tournaments, but whatev, people want to toss all that we learned about tournament rules from melee to the wind just cause it's a sequel.

@NESNoob: Good trick. I see what you did thar.

 

[RDK]

So. . . . .I am beginning to dislike Casual rules.

I am going to make a thread about it.

Spoiler

10CHARIXARDS

 

[sugarpoultry]

So. . . . .I am beginning to dislike Casual rules.

I am going to make a thread about it.

Dooooooooo it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

So. . . . .I am beginning to dislike Casual rules.

I am going to make a thread about it.

I actually think it should be noted that despite how often threads like this one shows up you rarely ever see a "Casuals are wrong, they absolutely MUST play competitive rules" thread show up.

Edit: I never properly thanked Mookie for my sig soooooooo Thank you

 

[RDK]

I actually think it should be noted that despite how often threads like this one shows up you rarely ever see a "Casuals are wrong, they absolutely MUST play competitive rules" thread show up.

Wait until Dylan figures out that he wants to buy Brawl.

 

[sugarpoultry]

I actually think it should be noted that despite how often threads like this one shows up you rarely ever see a "Casuals are wrong, they absolutely MUST play competitive rules" thread show up.

That's because the tournament players are good about it. We don't complain, we keep our cool. It's the people who keep losing who complain.

:D

 

[Red Exodus]

Tournament players also recognize that they have a choice and don't blindly follow the rules even when not in a tournament. Casuals seem to think that we never turn on items and never play on banned stages.

All of this drama spawns from ignorance.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Buzz and I play with items with our friends, for fun. It sometimes sucks, especially for someone like me who is trying to get better. Items and randomness messes up my game. I would never progress if items were on and banned levels were played.

 

[NES n00b]

Nobody is supposed to read what people post.

Haven't you guys been part of a forum before? -_-

Edit: That is becuase you don't like fun Sugarpoultry. >=[

 

[Red Exodus]

I turn that stuff off when I'm trying to get better too, which is almost every time I play since I still suck [can't WD or SHFFL consistently yet]

 

[RDK]

Buzz and I play with items with our friends, for fun. It sometimes sucks, especially for someone like me who is trying to get better. Items and randomness messes up my game. I would never progress if items were on and banned levels were played.

Communist tourneyf@g!

 

[sugarpoultry]

Edit: That is becuase you don't like fun Sugarpoultry. >=[

When you're married to someone like Buzz, the fun and learning never ends.

 

[Pink Reaper]

There hasn't been a troll post in far too long so: "Tourney***s know nothing about the way the game should be played, all you do is ban levels and use glitches with Fox on Final Destination. If we played with items on I would totally pwn j00"

/hyperbole

 

[sugarpoultry]

Heh, well I think they decided to put their mature hats on.

 

[RDK]

Nah, they just all went to Newgrounds and Zentendo, and decided to make videos about how gay we are.

 

[NES n00b]

When you're married to someone like Buzz, the fun and learning never ends.

Awwwww. . . . . . . . I mean, that is so corny.

Mature hats are banned in the Brawl boards. Don't you read the forum rules. n00bs!