I'm starting to dislike tournament rules.

[Jazriel]

@ Wind Smasher X

One of my first games ever in Smash, was FFA all items on high. I did an f smash. A bomb-omb spawned right where my foot was going and I died.

Just 'cause it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You know Green Green's? My first time playing that level EVER. I was hit up into the sky and a moment later a block spawns. What happens? It drops and I become a star.

**** happens. Luck is lame. It doesn't matter if you're playing for nothing or playing for keeps. Luck sucks. Sure, the odd match where it doesn't matter is fine. Hell, even the pro's do it. But seriously, luck sucks. That's all there is to it.

 

[MookieRah]

I'd just like to take a minute to express my gratitude for Buzz handling P.E.'s last post for me, cause I was really not in the mood considering he addressed like 1% of the stuff that I totally crushed him on. Thanks mangz.

@Teh Popo
What Gerbil said is kinda what I've been saying for a while. Casual players tend to *percieve* this avid persecution, yet usually if you really look into the starts of these threads and these arguments you will see competitive players trying to explain things in a civil manner. Also, it tends to be the casual player who casts the first motolov cocktail to ignite the flamewar.

 

[P.E]

Just thought I would repost this, food for thought.

I would also like to add that with a new game comes new players. And it will be quite a large jump for some if no items are allowed at all. People have to remember that Brawl is aimed at a wider audience than melee was. And new people on the tourney scene may find things a little daunting at first. IMO items will be tested well and we will see honest results and I do agree that some items are broken. And about the exploding crate thing, I understand these being the reason items are banned in the end. Especially with money on the line, but I feel with them being marked this time its eaiser to stay away from. And I personally have never had a random Bob omb or crate fall in front of me while I'm doing an F-smash and I've done tons of gimmick matches with 3 of my friends. We set items very high, 2.0 damage ratio, and only Bombs and this has never happened. Although it is a random luck factor and randomness can change a match, I think some items should be allowed, at least on very low. But alas the community will decide when Brawl comes out.

OMG there´s actually a decent post in this thread. Though I like to play with items, I understand that a unavoidable item explosion can be very frustrating. Do you have the PAL- or NTSC-version, Wind Smasher X? Maybe the unavoidable explosions happen more often in the NTSC version. Since even the "avoidable" explosive container will be marked, the developers seem to be quite item-noob friendly. (Still it´s not a proof for unavoidable explosions being banned, but let´s hope they are)

 

[Card]

@Teh Popo
What Gerbil said is kinda what I've been saying for a while. Casual players tend to *percieve* this avid persecution, yet usually if you really look into the starts of these threads and these arguments you will see competitive players trying to explain things in a civil manner. Also, it tends to be the casual player who casts the first motolov cocktail to ignite the flamewar.

I feel your pain Mookie...

It seems like there is constantly this debate going on and on, no matter how civil (or radical) both sides are taking their stand and explaining to the other side.

Perhaps we should look even deeper towards the roots of the problem.... never mind the whole explanation behind the logistics of determining what is banned or not... maybe the problem lies in the fact that we 'label' the two groups as "Casual" and "Competitive"? It seems there is a lot of misunderstanding with the terminology we use to describe the two different groups of players. Like you say, the casual players are usually the first to toss the molotov cocktail, but maybe its because the dislike to be recognized as being "casual"....

Maybe differentiating them as "Tourney-Go'ers" and "Stay-at-Home'rs"... although it sounds silly, I'm sure it wouldn't cause any misunderstandings amongst both groups.


*shrug*

 

[Red Exodus]

You don't have to playthat way all the time. I usually go without items, but when I played with some the other day I *****. Now if people want items I'll let them play with them but depending on who they are I might give them a warning about flying blunt objects [baseball bat].

 

[flyinfilipino]

I feel your pain Mookie...

It seems like there is constantly this debate going on and on, no matter how civil (or radical) both sides are taking their stand and explaining to the other side.

Perhaps we should look even deeper towards the roots of the problem.... never mind the whole explanation behind the logistics of determining what is banned or not... maybe the problem lies in the fact that we 'label' the two groups as "Casual" and "Competitive"? It seems there is a lot of misunderstanding with the terminology we use to describe the two different groups of players. Like you say, the casual players are usually the first to toss the molotov cocktail, but maybe its because the dislike to be recognized as being "casual"....

Maybe differentiating them as "Tourney-Go'ers" and "Stay-at-Home'rs"... although it sounds silly, I'm sure it wouldn't cause any misunderstandings amongst both groups.


*shrug*

There was a big argument about that a while ago, but it seems people are fine with the label 'casual'.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The thing that bothers me is that casual smashers refuse to do anything to change the situation. It is just like the tier list arguments. Everyone shouts that Link should be top tier, but they refuse to prove it by winning large tournaments. They base their facts off smashfests with friends. "Oh man, I never lose to Fox with my Link!" These people have been to few (if any) tournaments and assume they are now experts. >_>

 

[Bacon Man11]

I like the Tournament Rules, but if a character got banned, I think we might need to send a declaration of inpedendance.

 

[Titan05]

Maybe differentiating them as "Tourney-Go'ers" and "Stay-at-Home'rs"... although it sounds silly, I'm sure it wouldn't cause any misunderstandings amongst both groups.

Indeed it may sound silly but you do bring up a good point.
Language and how we use it is at the core of pretty much every problem you find.
Unfortunately terms such as "competitive" and "casual" have been so ingrained in our minds that I doubt one could simply "differentiate" them.

As for the topic itself... The item, stage selection and game type menus were created for a reason. I don't think anyone is really forcing anyone to do anything. Its not like the tourney ppl are coercing anyone and the homers aren't torching tourney venues...

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG DAMMIT?

 

[flyinfilipino]

The thing that bothers me is that casual smashers refuse to do anything to change the situation. It is just like the tier list arguments. Everyone shouts that Link should be top tier, but they refuse to prove it by winning large tournaments. They base their facts off smashfests with friends. "Oh man, I never lose to Fox with my Link!" These people have been to few (if any) tournaments and assume they are now experts. >_>

Luckily, that's not true of every non-tourney going casual smasher.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

We can't get along because casual smashers refuse to accept facts. We present evidence to them from the real world of smash, but they fight with "logic" and conjectures. It's a bit frustrating trying to explain that "1 + 1 = 2" and have them argue back with alternate theories. >_>

 

[Card]

We can't get along because casual smashers refuse to accept facts. We present evidence to them from the real world of smash, but they fight with "logic" and conjectures. It's a bit frustrating trying to explain that "1 + 1 = 2" and have them argue back with alternate theories. >_>

But it's our duty to not give up We must continue to explain to the entire Smash community our views on the entire tournament scene. After all... in the end it will only benefit both sides, and evolve the community as a whole!

 

[Titan05]

We can't get along because casual smashers refuse to accept facts. We present evidence to them from the real world of smash, but they fight with "logic" and conjectures. It's a bit frustrating trying to explain that "1 + 1 = 2" and have them argue back with alternate theories. >_>

Touche. So...
Is it possible to find a course of dialog that avoids labeling one superior to the other.

EDIT: Sentence Structure.

 

[Spellman]

We can't get along because casual smashers refuse to accept facts.

Well that's not fair.

 

[Card]

Touche. So...
Is it possible to find a course of dialog that avoids labeling one superior to the other.

Neither "Casual" nor "Competitive" is being labeled as being superior to the other, thats the huge misconception many users have whenever this discussion is brought up.

All it is, is two separate styles of playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

There isn't one which is better than the other.
There isn't one which is more fun that the other.
and there most certainly isn't one which is superior to the other.

They are just two different ways to play the game, which have absolutely no impact on each other. "Casual" smashers can play by their own set rules, "Competitive" smashers can play by the rules set by the majority of tournament attendees. However "Casual" smashers play, has nothing to do with how "Competitive" smashers play, and the same applies vice-versa. However well you rank and play in competitive play, stands no bearing in casual play, and the same applies vice-versa.


This is probably the biggest misconception many members of the community face when this argument is brought up. Of course there is Buzz and Mookie who also have very valuable information on the subject, but I figured I'd put my take on the subject.

 

[WIND SMASHER X]

Maybe someday we will all reach a compromise, *sigh* a man can dream can't he.

 

[Titan05]

Neither "Casual" nor "Competitive" is being labeled as being superior to the other, thats the huge misconception many users have whenever this discussion is brought up.

All it is, is two separate styles of playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

There isn't one which is better than the other.
There isn't one which is more fun that the other.
and there most certainly isn't one which is superior to the other.

They are just two different ways to play the game, which have absolutely no impact on each other. "Casual" smashers can play by their own set rules, "Competitive" smashers can play by the rules set by the majority of tournament attendees. However "Casual" smashers play, has nothing to do with how "Competitive" smashers play, and the same applies vice-versa. However well you rank and play in competitive play, stands no bearing in casual play, and the same applies vice-versa.


This is probably the biggest misconception many members of the community face when this argument is brought up. Of course there is Buzz and Mookie who also have very valuable information on the subject, but I figured I'd put my take on the subject.

It appears as if a lot of people don't get that. Then they get angry and you have threads like these evolve.

 

[KarnIge WoLF]

Dude just chill the game is not even out yet and you are already thinking about tourney rules.

 

[MookieRah]

But it's our duty to not give up We must continue to explain to the entire Smash community our views on the entire tournament scene. After all... in the end it will only benefit both sides, and evolve the community as a whole!

I'm all about debates with people who are informed on the subject of actual tournament rules and regulations who merely disagree with them. These kind of discussions DO help the community, because we might be able to agree on issues and make slight changes or comprimises to better the current rulesets. The problems come when people who don't know anything about the scene act like they know everything and they don't listen to anything we (the tournament players) say. Sadly, this is the majority of people who oppose tournament rules.

It also doesn't help that there are A LOT of things about competitive play that you simply don't understand untill you reach a certain level in skill. Case in point: Most competitive players don't really know what mind games are. These are people who declare themselves as competitive players mind you! The chances for a casual player to fully grasp and understand these things is very very slim due to the nature of casual play in general.

All of these factors mesh to form this huge barrier that confuses and frustrates people on both sides of the argument. It's a mess really.

 

[flyinfilipino]

And there's also the fact that a lot of the 'competitive' folk seem to have adopted a certain flagrant attitude that comes off as rude and incites strong feelings in 'casual' players to keep arguing.

 

[MookieRah]

And there's also the fact that a lot of the 'competitive' folk seem to have adopted a certain flagrant attitude that comes off as rude and incites strong feelings in 'casual' players to keep arguing.

That goes both ways. You cannot attribute that to either side.

 

[flyinfilipino]

That goes both ways. You cannot attribute that to either side.

Psh, I was just saying.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

And there's also the fact that a lot of the 'competitive' folk seem to have adopted a certain flagrant attitude that comes off as rude and incites strong feelings in 'casual' players to keep arguing.

Too many people see facts and logic as "a certain flagrant attitude". If everyone would read the actual words rather than play off the vibe, then everything would be much better. I tend to be very blunt because there is no reason to add fluff to something that only exists one way. As MookieRah said, it is one thing for someone to simply dislike the tournament rules. It is a problem, however, when these people falsely assume we all play Fox on Final Destination. It comes as a shock to many when they discover we really have not banned as many stages as they would like to think.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Too many people see facts and logic as "a certain flagrant attitude". If everyone would read the actual words rather than play off the vibe, then everything would be much better. I tend to be very blunt because there is no reason to add fluff to something that only exists one way. As MookieRah said, it is one thing for someone to simply dislike the tournament rules. It is a problem, however, when these people falsely assume we all play Fox on Final Destination. It comes as a shock to many when they discover we really have not banned as many stages as they would like to think.

Well, you're talking about a certain bunch of 'casuals' there. I agree, that kind's annoying. But then there are the others that I see that are simply misinformed and then automatically lumped in with the obnoxious ones, and don't get a chance to be informed. Instead, they just get the cold shoulder. If everyone would just take the time to read each others' words.

 

[MookieRah]

Psh, I was just saying.

Nothing will change if we blame everything on the other side of the argument, and your post was very obviously placing blame on the competitive side. While what you said is true, we wouldn't have these negative opinions and "flagrant" attitudes if you guys didn't have negative opinions and flagrant attitudes.

Honestly, if you have beefs with tournament rules the best options are as follows:

1: Host your own tournament with your own rules. This isn't really all that hard, and so far I've yet to see ANYONE man up and do this yet. All I hear are excuses, and or people getting frustrated at being told that they have to do that. Hosting a tournament takes work and commitement. I don't see any lacking of this in the tournament scene.

2: Talk about tournament rules directly to a tournament host. Know of any tournaments that have been announced in your area for Brawl? Talk about the rules in there. You actually have a chance to discuss this with the tournament host, and your opinions would have more power if you are planning on attending. It's much easier to deal with this kind of thing on the small scale than attempt to change the opinions of virtually everyone on this site all at once.

What would this do in the end? Well if you did one of the two things you are actively participating in the tournament scene. If you participate you will earn respect, when you earn respect your opinions hold more merit. If you want to change the status quo, you shouldn't expect things to change drastically overnight because people outside of the community don't like how things are.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Nothing will change if we blame everything on the other side of the argument, and your post was very obviously placing blame on the competitive side. While what you said is true, we wouldn't have these negative opinions and "flagrant" attitudes if you guys didn't have negative opinions and flagrant attitudes.

Honestly, if you have beefs with tournament rules the best options are as follows:

1: Host your own tournament with your own rules. This isn't really all that hard, and so far I've yet to see ANYONE man up and do this yet. All I hear are excuses, and or people getting frustrated at being told that they have to do that. Hosting a tournament takes work and commitement. I don't see any lacking of this in the tournament scene.

2: Talk about tournament rules directly to a tournament host. Know of any tournaments that have been announced in your area for Brawl? Talk about the rules in there. You actually have a chance to discuss this with the tournament host, and your opinions would have more power if you are planning on attending. It's much easier to deal with this kind of thing on the small scale than attempt to change the opinions of virtually everyone on this site all at once.

What would this do in the end? Well if you did one of the two things you are actively participating in the tournament scene. If you participate you will earn respect, when you earn respect your opinions hold more merit. If you want to change the status quo, you shouldn't expect things to change drastically overnight because people outside of the community don't like how things are.

I really was just saying, I never said it was only the 'competitives' with attitudes. I don't have any problems with 'tournament rules', and thanks for lumping me in with the folk that do...but what you said is good for them to know.

 

[CyberBenX4]

All of these factors mesh to form this huge barrier that confuses and frustrates people on both sides of the argument. It's a mess really.

And that "mess" is pretty much going to be the ever-continuing story of Smash Bros. for the years to come. I don't foresee X/Brawl doing much to change that, personally, but it would be a pleasant surprise.

In essence, this whole stigma surrounding Smash is probably what's going to keep it from being as "respected" as most other traditional fighting games. The Japanese have yet to do anything, such as promoting Melee to large scale events like Tougeki:Super Battle Opera (a Japanese, Vs. fighting game tournament that takes place every year, during their "Golden Week"). If your game is not there, then chances are, the Japanese don't respect it as a viable tourney-class game. That probably speaks volumes for how they, and the rest of the hardcore fighting game scene, perceive "SumaBura" as a whole. And it ain't because of Melee's "quirks", either; Arc System's Hokuto no Ken is one of the most tier-driven, exploit-ridden fighting games of all time, and it STILL has a regular presence at SBO.

The day that I see SBO offer Smash as part of its event schedule, is when I think that the game has officially been recognized as a tourney-class game the world over. But it ain't there yet, and, sadly, I doubt it ever will. The fact that the very "scene" that does exist does plenty of in-fighting amongst themselves probably doesn't help the cause any, either.

I mean, let's be honest. You don't see people who play Guilty Gear, KOF, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Street Fighter and other fighters have to put up with the kind of nonsense that surrounds trying to make a "unified" rule set for Melee. They just set up a bunch of fair rules that make sense, everyone can agree to, and they roll with it. Why SumaBura is perhaps the one fighting game that perpetuates the most drama amongst its followers, is something that I think will always elude me...

 

[flyinfilipino]

And that "mess" is pretty much going to be the ever-continuing story of Smash Bros. for the years to come. I don't foresee X/Brawl doing much to change that, personally, but it would be a pleasant surprise.

In essence, this whole stigma surrounding Smash is probably what's going to keep it from being as "respected" as most other traditional fighting games. The Japanese have yet to do anything, such as promoting Melee to large scale events like Tougeki:Super Battle Opera (a Japanese, Vs. fighting game tournament that takes place every year, during their "Golden Week"). If your game is not there, then chances are, the Japanese don't respect it as a viable tourney-class game. That probably speaks volumes for how they, and the rest of the hardcore fighting game scene, perceive "SumaBura" as a whole. And it ain't because of Melee's "quirks", either; Arc System's Hokuto no Ken is one of the most tier-driven, exploit-ridden fighting games of all time, and it STILL has a regular presence at SBO.

The day that I see SBO offer Smash as part of its event schedule, is when I think that the game has officially been recognized as a tourney-class game the world over. But it ain't there yet, and, sadly, I doubt it ever will. The fact that the very "scene" that does exist does plenty of in-fighting amongst themselves probably doesn't help the cause any, either.

I mean, let's be honest. You don't see people who play Guilty Gear, KOF, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Street Fighter and other fighters have to put up with the kind of nonsense that surrounds trying to make a "unified" rule set for Melee. They just set up a bunch of fair rules that make sense, everyone can agree to, and they roll with it. Why SumaBura is perhaps the one fighting game that perpetuates the most drama amongst its followers, is something that I think will always elude me...

It's because in competitive-level Smash, a lot of the game's basic elements are left out (items, certain stages), and since a lot of those things appeal to the bigger, more casual crowd, you get some conflict there.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

MLG hosted SSBM for a long time.

 

[CyberBenX4]

MLG hosted SSBM for a long time.

But look at what you just posted. MLG. Which is an American function. An American function that is predominantly oriented towards FPSs, not tourney-class Vs. fighters. And even in the time frame that MLG did host fighters, I seriously, seriously doubt, that any of them could hold a candle to the people who make regular trips to EVO (a yearly, West Coast oriented vs. fighting game event). You might as well be talking about Smash's presence at the likes of Otakon to be something worth speaking about for its "street cred".

SSBM only JUST got into EVO this last year. That would have been saying something, were it not for the fact that, since it came in along with Mario Kart DS and Hyper Street Fighter 2, it probably did more to showcase how EVO has been "selling out" than anything else.

So, in the end, Smash is still not all that respected amongst the fighting game community at large. The Japanese don't take it seriously, there are a number of Westerners who don't even think it's worthy of being in the same place as something like SF3: Third Strike and the rest just shy away because there's no real cohesive rules, from which to really make a well-structured scene.

To say that Smash scene has a lot to prove to the world is an understatement. But the scene's gotta work out its own workings before they can even try to make a stand of any sort...

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But look at what you just posted. MLG. Which is an American function. An American function that is predominantly oriented towards FPSs, not tourney-class Vs. fighters. And even in the time frame that MLG did host fighters, I seriously, seriously doubt, that any of them could hold a candle to the people who make regular trips to EVO (a yearly, West Coast oriented vs. fighting game event).

SSBM only JUST got into EVO this last year. That would have been saying something, were it not for the fact that, since it came in along with Mario Kart DS and Hyper Street Fighter 2, it probably did more to showcase how EVO has been "selling out" than anything else.

So, in the end, Smash is still not all that respected amongst the fighting game community at large. The Japanese don't take it seriously, there are a number of Westerners who don't even think it's worthy of being in the same place as something like SF3: Third Strike and the rest just shy away because there's no real cohesive rules, from which to really make a well-structured scene.

To say that Smash scene has a lot to prove to the world is an understatement. But the scene's gotta work out its own workings before they can even try to make a stand of any sort...

What is your point? Smash receives plenty of positive recognition. Who cares if how smash is represented in the fighting game community? Most people are like me in that they play smash because they like it, not because it has any sort of rank.

Why did you even enter this discussion?

 

[Linkster47]

Most Japanese don't play FPS's and those are really popular in America, so I'd say the communities just play differant games. Plus, this is a website for people who like Smash, I personnaly don't care what other gamers think of us.

 

[flyinfilipino]

What is your point? Smash receives plenty of positive recognition. Who cares if how smash is represented in the fighting game community? Most people are like me in that they play smash because they like it, not because it has any sort of rank.

Why did you even enter this discussion?

If you read some of his earlier posts, he was relating the international (I guess?) popularity of Smash with the fact that there's so much conflict within the Smash-playing community. Dunno if it's true or not.

 

[MookieRah]

The Japanese have yet to do anything, such as promoting Melee to large scale events like Tougeki:Super Battle Opera (a Japanese, Vs. fighting game tournament that takes place every year, during their "Golden Week").

Who cares about the Japanese scene? Last time I checked we aren't in Japan. Secondly, the scene is large in the US, and Brawl will more than likely make it larger. It's slowly garnering more and more respect from the traditional fighting game community, but it's still a ways to go before it's considered as serious as Street Fighter or Guilty Gear.

The fact that Smash was at EVO means things are definitely looking up. IRONICALLY, the competitive scene of traditional fighters think we are too lax on some of our rules, and they laughed at us for using items and the like for a long while.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I disagree with the presence of a "conflict". Sure, we have casual smashers raiding our forums questioning the rules, but the tournament scene itself really doesn't have any problems. Outside of the forums, I have not debated with anyone about how faulty the rules are. Everyone likes them. Sure, there are occasional complaints about individual stages being banned, but there is nothing serious (i.e. "there should be items" arguments).

 

[shizzlee]

I never realized that I was playing aganist my brother with tourney type rules for years. I have never been to a tournament, but I like the rules. When I played with my older brother with items on, he used to win luckly and gloat. I used to beat the crap out of him (imagine getting beat by your little sister) for gloating because he won because of an item. He didn't even know what a smash attack was. He never won a match without an item and that is why I have been playing this game alone for months. I guess some people are just that ignorant.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I disagree with the presence of a "conflict". Sure, we have casual smashers raiding our forums questioning the rules, but the tournament scene itself really doesn't have any problems. Outside of the forums, I have not debated with anyone about how faulty the rules are. Everyone likes them. Sure, there are occasional complaints about individual stages being banned, but there is nothing serious (i.e. "there should be items" arguments).

Some conflicts between some of the players some of the time, yes, I think that's what he meant.

@shizzlee: Yeah, it's just a bunch of ignorance from a few. But the rest of the casual community doesn't/shouldn't care.

 

[CyberBenX4]

What is your point? Smash receives plenty of positive recognition. Who cares if how smash is represented in the fighting game community? Most people are like me in that they play smash because they like it, not because it has any sort of rank.

Why did you even enter this discussion?

Mostly to see the rationale of the "Serious!" Smasher, the "Casual" Smasher and see if it's changed any in the 3-4 years since I dabbled in the scene of "Serious" play.

Time flies, and it still seems like there's plenty of the same ol, same ol...

Who cares about the Japanese scene? Last time I checked we aren't in Japan.

Most fighting game fans make it their business to be concerned with the corresponding Japanese scene and its players, as it's usually the basis for how well the game is received, if it's got a good following, what the top players for each character use as strategies, what glitches need to be avoided, y'know, rather rudimentary things to insure that the game is healthy.

Japanese players are usually the power players that are able to break down the game, get the frame data and figure out other facets of the game months or even years before their "gaijin" counterparts would. For instance, chances are, we would have found out about Wave-Dashing YEARS ago (I'm talking like, very soon after the release of the game), if the power gaming JP players were on the case.

If there's no scene, than that usually goes a long way to setting the tone for everyone else in the hardcore fighting fanbase. And the little to no Japanese involvement has been a factor in what's hurt Smash to that same fanbase...

Ideally, now that there will be online facet for this game, maybe those lines of communication stand to be opened, and there just might be more interest in the Japanese side of the equation for competitive Smash with people all over. But we'll have to wait and see about that...

Secondly, the scene is large in the US, and Brawl will more than likely make it larger. It's slowly garnering more and more respect from the traditional fighting game community, but it's still a ways to go before it's considered as serious as Street Fighter or Guilty Gear.

The fact that Smash was at EVO means things are definitely looking up. IRONICALLY, the competitive scene of traditional fighters think we are too lax on some of our rules, and they laughed at us for using items and the like for a long while.

I can think of more reasons why they mock Smash for more than just the item usage...some have merit, a majority don't.

But any way, my thing is, if the "Serious!" Smashers want to be to truly get more respect, come Brawl, it would behoove them greatly to get to work on a universal, bona-fide "rule book" as much and as soon as possible. The last thing the Smash scenes needs is another inane thing like the "East vs. West" format war to happen all over again, only this time, perpetuated by the likes of the Smash Balls as this time's "hot topic".

 

[MookieRah]

I can think of more reasons why they mock Smash for more than just the item usage...some have merit, a majority don't.

I can already tell you another thing we are criticized on. The ban of wobbling at some tournaments. It's been proven not to be broken, yet people complain about it horrendously cause they are butt-hurt by it. The other communities see it as it is, which is being scrubbish. I've debated over and over with people and have changed some peoples' opinions on it, but overall there are still a lot of people that oppose it and still enforce the ban.

it would behoove them greatly to get to work on a universal, bona-fide "rule book" as much and as soon as possible.

MLG rules. Done. That is the competative standard. There are slight variations to it, but all the major tournaments pretty much go by those rules. All of the general rules are the same, the only exceptions being slight stage differences. The last time I checked, the traditional fighting scene doesn't have any games where stages are an issue, so they can't really claim to know what is the proper manner to go about standardizing stage bans. Currently this is left up to the tournament host, as well as the wobbling ban.

The last thing the Smash scenes needs is another inane thing like the "East vs. West" format war to happen all over again, only this time, perpetuated by the likes of the Smash Balls as this time's "hot topic".

That won't happen again this time around. I say that because the community is united now, and has been since the rulesets, more or less, became standardized.

Overall, the smash community is still new. Traditional fighting games have been around for much much longer and it's populace consist of more hardcore and overall older guys. Because of this they have an easier time discussing things that need to be banned, or how to handle tournament rules for new traditional fighters. While there are sooooo many parallels to traditional fighters and smash, a lot of the traditional fighter scene simply shrugs smash off as a kids game and didn't give it a chance because of items, crazy stages, and incredibly cute and childish characters. I guarantee that if the game had a more serious tone overall, that they would have been way more accepting to smash as a "legit" fighter.

All in all, this community is thriving. It has only grown and grown since I showed up in 2004, and it is only growing faster due to Brawl. I'm not worried about how the scene is currently viewed, because as it stands it is larger than any other fighting game community in the states, AND our top players not only contend with the Japanese on an even playing field, but also consistently have beaten them in Japan and in the US. This tradition of the Japanese scene determining what is legit or not is merely that, tradition.

 

[CyberBenX4]

Really now?

Maybe this is just me speaking from jaded experience, but the reason I was predominantly turned off from serious play, was due to the fact that it was so disorganized years ago. The only relatively good experience I had with such a thing was at a gathering that even had SephKen make an appearance (and it was funny to get killed by him several ways til next Sunday).

If things have changed, power to the people. But again, Brawl does stand to change up a few things, does it not? This is the kind of "fresh start" that should be handled with extreme care, especially again, since this is the opportunity to do things right, as compared to the fairly disjointed community for Melee years back.

The last time I checked, the traditional fighting scene doesn't have any games where stages are an issue, so they can't really claim to know what is the proper manner to go about standardizing stage bans.

Oh, but there are, actually. For instance, some games, like 2D games such as Guilty Gear XX, pretty much ban some stages, because of either a) stages that have weird cornering issues with a certain player in one corner or the other or b) they're just dis-orienting to play (see Boss I-No's stage with the psychedelics, and hard to find edges. Then there was always cases, like in 3D fighters like Soul Calibur, where some stages were banned because the slow-down caused unwelcome lag.

So, to make it simple, some stages are just banned; no questions asked, no discussion warranted, and it's universal for any tournament. If they can do it, certainly, Smash's following can do the same.