Ike's future in the current metagame ?

[ReroRero]

Hi, as a Ike player I wonder if the character could have a future in the long term. Let me explain.

Ike is a pretty straight forward characters with obvious strengths but also huge weakness. But the main thing that disturbs me about him is the fact that we seem to have discoreved almost anything with him since. He doesn't have many advanced tech or some trumps cards like Corrin, Cloud or Marth (if we only mentionned) that could make him evolve in the meta, making him in the long term fall behind some characters that still has room for improvement.

That was something that bothers me for a long time and even more when I saw Zero tier list video, while Ike was high tier, unlike most characters in the tier list, he said that he doesn't to have anything that will make him really great or amazing in the future. I'm really sad to agree, but it seems he's right.

What do you think about this ?

 

[[BROF]]

I dont agree for multiple reasons.

1. Patches still exist, and until we get actual confirmation that they're stopping nobody knows what could happen to the meta. We're reaching a point where Mewtwo (a character considered low/bottom when he came out) is clawing his way into top/high tier status. Many of Ike weaknesses could be fixed in patches such as Aether auto-snap or grabbing from behind.

2. A character being straightforward doesn't make it less of a threat. Mario is one of the most straightforward characters in the game but he's just good and solid.

3. Due to Smash 4's limited mechanics, don't expect immense rise in tiers or metagame without the aid of patches. So Ike is at a pretty comfortable spot right now. Even more so now after the nerfing of his worst Matchup.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Arrei]

Yup, I'm far from a tournament-oriented player, but looking at Sm4sh's mechanics, I feel like people have been massively overestimating the value of "evolving" in the meta, as if discovering a new setup or combo will rocket a character through the tiers - and will do so without subsequently incurring the wrath of Sakurai's Bamco® Nerf Hammer to boot.

What Ike really needs now, should they decide to improve him further, is to address his most glaring weaknesses. The inability to snap Aether without the lengthy animation, the sheer unwieldiness of his Fsmash and Dsmash compared to characters that have since received smashes that are stronger, faster, and/or reach farther while being less punishable, and the lack of practical use for most of his B specials outside of specific niches like Eruption edgeguarding.

My ideal change list at this point of time would be something like:

Spoiler

1. Either greatly speed up Fsmash's startup to something more reasonable yet still slow like Ganondorf's Fsmash... or just scrap it completely and give us Roy's Fsmash. Nonsensical noodle hit and all, I don't care, I just want something we can use. You could argue Ike has less use for a serviceable Fsmash when he has Ftilt and Utilt, but those won't kill until a fair amount past 100. Despite being a heavy with a focus on singular powerful hits (that can now combo, but I digress) he ironically can't capitalize on big mistakes and kill early because his Fsmash is so bad.

2. Keep Dsmash's startup as is, but make the second hit come out faster. We're no stranger to this request.

3. There is a certain height where Aether will make Ike grab the ledge after spinning without actually throwing out the spike hitbox, unceremoniously dumping an opponent out of the move instead of causing ledge shenanigans. Make that height autosnap without spinning and we can then snap without losing the party game hilarity factor of spiking someone with our recovery.

4. Quick Draw needs... something. With its startup, low distance without charging, pathetic damage, and lack of followups, it has almost no uses outside of recovery and surprising unwary opponents with its autocancel ability, unlike many other side specials which beat it in mobility, utility, or both. Since up to now we have to seen no cases whatsoever of replacing a move with a custom, I think we can say there's no chance of us just getting Close Combat as a replacement. So instead what I'd like to see is, on hit the endlag is reduced and Ike bounces into the air while keeping some set forward momentum akin to Falcon's Raptor Boost, instead of just immediately falling. And instead of entering free fall if he doesn't input Aether within one second, he can act freely after a hit allowing him to chase the opponent when onstage opening up potential combo possibilities, or Quick Draw again or wait until he's closer before using Aether when offstage, so that you can't thwart a fully charged recovery just by sticking your fat arse in the way.

5. Pipe dream tier here but if non-full Eruption could spike aerial opponents too? Eruption edgeguards all day every day, baby!

I'd also still like Dair's lingering hitbox back please

 

[ReroRero]

Thanks for your thoughts. You have both a point there. I just hope the future of the meta will be like you said.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Unless Ike receives buffs on what he TRULY needs patched, and not another simple damage upgrade, he will begin sinking into mid-tier within the next 3 months. More and more players are learning this matchup, as well as exploiting his poor hitlag, endlag, and recovery. They know the obvious tricks, what to bait, and which option to spike or gimp Ike with, as well as what stages he does poorly at. The fact that he does poorly on certain stages is also a factor in his weaknesses.

For instance, some general things to remember include Sonic excels at Final Destination, Sheik excels on Smashville, and Rosalina excels on Dream Land and Town & City. So for nearly any character, you simply ban those stages. However, if you're Ike and you take Cloud to Battlefield, Dream Land, or Lylat Cruise, expect a surefire loss. Yet, against the rest of the majority of the roster, Ike excels on the first two of the aforementioned stages.

Other characters with solid frame data will excel on certain stages and do good on the rest of them. Ike seems to have that struggle, forcing you to be very careful where you go at high level play. In fact, if Delfino Plaza and Halberd were still legal, Ike may very well be mid-tier already. He does not have any excel point on "janky" stages, and this is largely due to lacking a reliable upwards kill and solid movement on the ground and in the air.

In the grand scheme of things, Ike may very well be mid-tier. In the midst of the obvious tier characters, he simply lacks the "it" factor. He excels at spacing, edgeguarding, survivability, and powerful kill moves. However, his Smashes are too risky, his Bair misses short opponents, his Dair has too big of a sourspot and only lasts 2 frames (compared to Captain Falcon's 3), and everything he does is a complete and utter risk due to his overcommitment on nearly every move he makes. Going offstage can result in being an utter mistake, and his recovery is lackluster.

He lacks solid landing abilities, has no aerial defense to punish juggles, his B moves cannot be used in neutral effectively, his DSmash is useless, his FSmash is almost never usable, and he has the worst Counter in the game. Just this number of faults makes him easy to exploit among several characters in the roster, and makes every matchup potentially quite difficult for him with the glaring exception of a few bottom tiers, such as Ganondorf.

Unless Ike gets the right buffs, I don't see him lasting long in the overall national or global scene.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

and he has the worst Counter in the game.

Excuse me but this title clearly goes to Palutena. At the very least his counter actually can kill. It even hits the opponent if activated. This are two things that Palutenas counter cannot do.(The hitbox is so weird)

I have the feeling that they are not done with ike yet given that there are near to Zero results in Japan. (and europe as far as i know) The most i wish for him is a bit more mobility and that i don't have to always reverse the upb
By the way it can be an advantage to know that your opponent knows your weaknesses.

 

[Amiracle]

I think Lucario has the worst counter in the game, I've seen Lucario's kill themselves before after countering

 

[HeavyLobster]

he has the worst Counter in the game.

Not at all. It has the least endlag of any Counter not named Witch Time, which makes it a good edgeguarding tool. Seriously, ledgedrop Counter is the truth in certain MUs. As for Ike overall, his biggest problem is that Cloud is better at most everything except grab game, and that's generally not enough considering Cloud's vastly better anti-juggle options. Overall Ike right now is a good character currently eclipsed by a great character who does most of the same things better. He holds up pretty well against pretty much everyone until he starts getting juggled, meaning he has a low margin for error compared to high tiers, and likely won't see high tier results, but you can still do work with him in tourney.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Excuse me but this title clearly goes to Palutena. At the very least his counter actually can kill. It even hits the opponent if activated. This are two things that Palutenas counter cannot do.(The hitbox is so weird)

I have the feeling that they are not done with ike yet given that there are near to Zero results in Japan. (and europe as far as i know) The most i wish for him is a bit more mobility and that i don't have to always reverse the upb
By the way it can be an advantage to know that your opponent knows your weaknesses.

I made this correction on another thread and forgot I said it here. I said one of the worst, but notably not the worst. Frame 9 is at least still better than Frame 10, especially considering Palutena can barely even get a kill off of her Counter as well.

I think Lucario has the worst counter in the game, I've seen Lucario's kill themselves before after countering

They probably didn't utilize the move right. Then again, Day next to never uses it.

Not at all. It has the least endlag of any Counter not named Witch Time, which makes it a good edgeguarding tool. Seriously, ledgedrop Counter is the truth in certain MUs. As for Ike overall, his biggest problem is that Cloud is better at most everything except grab game, and that's generally not enough considering Cloud's vastly better anti-juggle options. Overall Ike right now is a good character currently eclipsed by a great character who does most of the same things better. He holds up pretty well against pretty much everyone until he starts getting juggled, meaning he has a low margin for error compared to high tiers, and likely won't see high tier results, but you can still do work with him in tourney.

Pretty much what I'm trying to say. If not for Cloud, Ike would be more used widespread. He still has his advantageous matchups over Cloud (Samus, Pikachu), but again, that's considering you even run into these characters in the first place.