Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Brinzy]

I'm glad you posted that video. I didn't bother testing because I'm alone, but it doesn't matter anymore.

Though, this gives me more incentive to use it while I'm actually on top of Ike.

 

[Deleted member]

lol umbreon is going to start banning people if we don't move on. And QD can always be punished thats how bad it sucks =P

next person to say "ivy" is getting a 100 point perma ban. yes, I have those. it only takes 6 points to ban someone.

I'm not kidding.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

That frame data thread is not reliables ( unless for Pt ), we discussed it and ended up agreeing that there was some stuff wrong, one of those bullet sedd, there is no way a 4 frame attack stops stuff like sheiks ftilt lock,falcos jab combo, and DDD's and falco's chaingrabs (if not done perfectly)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

A lot of things can interrupt moves done wrong that shouldn't even count. The best thing to get out of chain grabs done wrong is probably just to jump. I also don't think it would stop any jab combo if the opponent just holds A maybe once she is the in multi hit portion but not the initial AAA. The Ftilt lock isn't a true combo IIRC just a lock some characters can't get out of.

I thought you only modded the pokecenter umbreon can you really ban people? And is anyone going to say anything about charizard?

 

[Steeler]

looooool pokemon don't really fall asleep in fatigue, that's just poking fun at people who think fatigue = win for opponent or that fatigue is pt's biggest problem.

also fsmash punishing bullet seed doesn't really matter because ivysaur shouldn't be using bullet seed when both characters are in a neutral position. that's just ********. ike can just shield and have his way. nooooooo, what ivy's going to do is use bullet seed off of a nair, or to punish a laggy ike attack, or after a throw. ie, when ike can't shield and does not have an advantage/neutral in position.

also i'm way better than i was at hobo AB, i wish i could play you again.

don't overemphasize bullet seed in this matchup, most ivys will use it infrequently, only like 1-3 times in a match. with great power comes great responsibility, yo.

personally, i'm of the mindset that fatigue doesn't make much of a difference until you want to KO. and at that point, the same KO move will give enough time to switch to the next pokemon. fsmash's trajectory will accomplish this at like 90%, even fatigued. bthrow/uthrow off the ledge is nice because ike takes a while to get back on stage, unless he can qd. a hassle? yeah. a negative? no ****. but it really does not matter that much in character discussions. camping fatigue out is SO overrated. pt is just going to keep playing the same way, and ike is NOT winning the war if he's just sitting back and waiting for fatigue to come. :\

fatigue does not affect razor leaf's damage output afaik. ivysaur shouldn't really care about getting fatigued in this matchup if razor leafing from afar and using ranged moves up close is the most effective strategy here. fatigue will come but does that really matter? charizard has superb KO/gimp power when fresh. ike camping ivysaur's fatigue out isn't going to help much, because ike still can't do any damage at all to ivysaur from afar. razor leaf travels slowly enough that ivy can leaf, and follow up behind it to read ike's reaction. if he shields, then grab. if he spotdodges, ftilt, jab, or something. or just walk into a more comfortable position. throw ike off stage or punish an ike attack with fsmash and switch when needed. ivysaur's kill power is pretty underwhelming anyway, when ike's at high damage, some pts will consider switching to zard even if ivy isn't fatigued anyway because so many of his attacks can kill.

but anyway, LEAF BY ITSELF DOESN'T DO MUCH. this is obvious. i'm not arguing this point and i don't think anyone else is. the point is that leaf gives ivysaur more options than without it. smart ivy will use razor leaf to put itself at a slightly advantageous position and ike at a slightly disadvantageous position. you can't ignore that fact guys, jeez. u_u

also charizard likely does the best in this matchup. flamethrower is sooooooo good. zard is the best one off stage. zard has an awesome grab and throws that put ike into a pretty bad spot. charizard appears to zone ike better than the other two can.

ivy ivy ivy ivy ivy hi umbreon even though (ahem) pt sucks, is a horrible character, is bottom tier, is not worth the ike board's time, his pokemon fall asleep in fatigue, etc etc etc...pt is basically three characters. you shouldn't be surprised that this is taking so long. you should devote 2-3 weeks just to pt, because that's how long it takes to discuss any three characters, eh?

and ike isn't very good either. better than pt maybe but if so, then not much better. :\ don't act like you are the mk board discussing this matchup.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Charizard is kinda like ike, well ranged attacks, powerfull, and with some slow moves, althought both have some fast moves
Charizard has a pretty easy time gimping ike if hes trown on an angle where aether wont work, if ike recovers with aether all that charizard can do is flamethrowering at the edge to get some fast damage
Both are heavy, but both are also powerfull
Charizards kill moves are safer and faster, but ike's kill sooner
Edit: OMG steeler said ivysaur!!!! Hes gonna get banned!!!!
OMG... I said ivysaur too!!!! D:

 

[Ussi]

There is something called the edit button.

We aren't actng like the MK boards, I've been trying to listen to the other side. Just not everyone else does. Don't let one person define the boards.

 

[Steeler]

We aren't actng like the MK boards, I've been trying to listen to the other side. Just not everyone else does. Don't let one person define the boards.

i was just addressing umbreonMEEEEEEOW there

 

[The Derrit]

VINES.

That is all. And I agree w/ steeler.

 

[Steeler]

also dash -> shield is a good approach lulz.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

looooool pokemon don't really fall asleep in fatigue, that's just poking fun at people who think fatigue = win for opponent or that fatigue is pt's biggest problem.

also fsmash punishing bullet seed doesn't really matter because ivysaur shouldn't be using bullet seed when both characters are in a neutral position. that's just ********. ike can just shield and have his way. nooooooo, what ivy's going to do is use bullet seed off of a nair, or to punish a laggy ike attack, or after a throw. ie, when ike can't shield and does not have an advantage/neutral in position.

also i'm way better than i was at hobo AB, i wish i could play you again.

don't overemphasize bullet seed in this matchup, most ivys will use it infrequently, only like 1-3 times in a match. with great power comes great responsibility, yo.

If you say that ivy won't be using BS when it can be punished then the same thing applies Ike's laggy moves. I don't think BS combos from throws either unless the character is stupid and he doesn't jump or move at all.

If got better to you should get Kansas to come to FS5. I tried going to oh snap but no one else felt like driving 14 hours.

3 times is a lot since Ivy is only out for 1 stock.

personally, i'm of the mindset that fatigue doesn't make much of a difference until you want to KO. and at that point, the same KO move will give enough time to switch to the next pokemon. fsmash's trajectory will accomplish this at like 90%, even fatigued. bthrow/uthrow off the ledge is nice because ike takes a while to get back on stage, unless he can qd. a hassle? yeah. a negative? no ****. but it really does not matter that much in character discussions. camping fatigue out is SO overrated. pt is just going to keep playing the same way, and ike is NOT winning the war if he's just sitting back and waiting for fatigue to come. :\

fatigue does not affect razor leaf's damage output afaik. ivysaur shouldn't really care about getting fatigued in this matchup if razor leafing from afar and using ranged moves up close is the most effective strategy here. fatigue will come but does that really matter? charizard has superb KO/gimp power when fresh. ike camping ivysaur's fatigue out isn't going to help much, because ike still can't do any damage at all to ivysaur from afar. razor leaf travels slowly enough that ivy can leaf, and follow up behind it to read ike's reaction. if he shields, then grab. if he spotdodges, ftilt, jab, or something. or just walk into a more comfortable position. throw ike off stage or punish an ike attack with fsmash and switch when needed. ivysaur's kill power is pretty underwhelming anyway, when ike's at high damage, some pts will consider switching to zard even if ivy isn't fatigued anyway because so many of his attacks can kill.


but anyway, LEAF BY ITSELF DOESN'T DO MUCH. this is obvious. i'm not arguing this point and i don't think anyone else is. the point is that leaf gives ivysaur more options than without it. smart ivy will use razor leaf to put itself at a slightly advantageous position and ike at a slightly disadvantageous position. you can't ignore that fact guys, jeez. u_u

also charizard likely does the best in this matchup. flamethrower is sooooooo good. zard is the best one off stage. zard has an awesome grab and throws that put ike into a pretty bad spot. charizard appears to zone ike better than the other two can.

Thats exactly what makes fatigue matter so much. Squirtle has problems killing to begin with and if its fatigued Ike can survive to ridiculous percents. Squirtle also doesn't have an attack that is easy to land to get enough space in order to switch. QD is actually the best way to recover if you are not going to get punished which is probably isn't going to be happening while your switching pokemon.


Ike isn't going to simply be shielding and dodging everything he is going to play a defensive game by out ranging and hitting the pokemon away. This pretty much ensures that Ike will out live squirtle and Ivy by a lot and that they will have very few moves so safely switch pokemon. For example squirtle's Dthrow won't get you enough time to switch out pokemon when fresh just imagine when fatigued.

If being fatigued doesn't diminish Ivy's razor leaf damage does that mean it does for other moves? If so this is a pretty big deal because Ivy has to build up a lot of damage in order to kill Ike this just makes it that much harder. Ivysaur getting problems to kill (even though she has problems already) is a big deal as well because Ivy can't gimp Ike. The best thing it could do would be to tether hog but that only works if Ike has to go for the ledge. You will be able to punish Ike if he lands on the stage but not with anything that will matter to much. I don't think Ivy is as fast as the razor leaf so he can't travel right behind it to be able to attack with Ftilt. She also won't be able to grab Ike out of a PS you'd have to be very close to Ike in which case he could probably get to you easier than you can get to him. Even switching to charizard can get you killed against Ike at a low percent and if your fatigued this is going to be difficult.

People are argueing that Razor leaf by its self does a lot though. Razor leaf doesn't actually put Ike in a dis advantageous position its range isn't very big, its speed is just as bad, and Ivy suffers from a good bit of lag after its used. It does give Ivy more options but as much as you make it sound.

I agree that charizard probably does the best against Ike but I consider it a neutralish match up. I don't think FT is soooooooo good though it can be SDIed out of easily.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

First of all, let me tell you that no every PT play one pokemon per stock (in fact, i dont think that any good PT does that), a good trainer uses his switches and starter pokemon according to the matchup and the situation; and ivy does well against ike, so she may be out more than a stock
You talk so much about ike playing defensive outranging and tiping that sometimes i think you are talking about marth, who does have a very nice spacing game, for that you dont need just range, you need ranged, low prelag nad low postlag moves to do that, which marth has, not ike
And a fatigued pokemon can combo pretty well to do the damage required to get a breathing room, speacially against a character as heavy and withput combo-breakers as ike
Oh yeah, and for your own good dont try to fatigue ivy:
1) With a fatigued ivysaur, it will be harder to SDI out of bullet seed in the first hit because it has less knockback
2) A fatigued bullet seed does easily 40%+ to characters like ike, because each seed does the same damage (1%) and each seed has less knockback, so its harder to DI out of it

@Ussi:
Yes you have been listening both parts, and i respect you, seems like you are the most intelligent ike main i have known

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

when Ike mains ask who should I second most people answer marth because the spacing is so alike. I know that you need low pre and post lag how ever the more range you have the less you need. I'm not saying Ike's spacing game is better or even as good but it is good.

O yah and you don't SDI the initial hit you just regular DI. If doing it on a fatigued Ivy is harder then you can start SDIing for a bigger affect.

I believe that the BS have fixed knock back in the first place so fatigue shouldn't actually matter and less knock back doesn't make things harder to DI it doesn't have anything to do with DI. What would change is if they had less hitstun.

A fatigued Ivy doesn't have a better BS than a normal one.

and for your earlier post there is no angle where aether won't work. Once someone says this it pretty much means that they don't have experience with good Ikes.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

No, of course there are angles where aether doesnt work, those are where you are too far for reaching the ledge with your double jump+move to the stage+aether
For example, if you are thrown too far at a 30 degrees angle you cannot just jump and aether to recover... on that case you must use quick draw

 

[HeroMystic]

If Aether won't work it is almost 99% sure that quick draw will not work.

 

[Ussi]

No, of course there are angles where aether doesnt work, those are where you are too far for reaching the ledge with your double jump+move to the stage+aether
For example, if you are thrown too far at a 30 degrees angle you cannot just jump and aether to recover... on that case you must use quick draw

Ike actually usually can make it with aether if he can with QD. There is a TINY margin where QD would work but aether won't. But yea, since QD makes Ike fall straight down and QD itself doesn't go very far, its the same as just going over and using aether. Ike's recovery fails ~_~


And Burrito, do you really know how fatigue works? You shouldn't always assume things. The PT people most likely known what they are talking about over us since they should know their main better, unless if you test it yourself. Of course the same goes for them if they are just theory crafting.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm not correcting them on fatigue I'm correcting them on DI because the original claim was that a fatigued BS is harder to DI because it has less knock back. You can DI Ike's Fsmash just as much as his jab knock back doesn't change it. Plus I feel that they sometimes are theory crafting as they assumed a lot of things that could be tested easily like when Dthrow kills, If BS can interrupt the jab combo, if BS could be punished, that QD covers more range than Aether. Not trying to sound insulting but I at least say when I'm theory crafting or could be wrong.

There isn't a place where QD is needed guihle already went and tested this. No one has proved him wrong so until then I'll keep saying that QD isn't needed to recover. Actually I think we should maybe test if there is a spot where QD can not cut it and aether can.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Well, if you had to use your second jump, then got hit again, there is some area where QD would be needed instead of Aether

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Theres also places where QD won't work like that though because you have to cover vertical distance.

 

[Ussi]

Well I understand that part burrito. I realized I read your post wrong. I also thing bS might have a fixed knock back. However I don't have the time to test all that.

 

[Guilhe]

I agree with Steeler on discussing PT a little longer, we’ve barely discussed the Charizard matchup. As I see it, Charizard has more options on approaching than we do (not so surprising), especially on the ground. We are both powerhouses. Charizard could, with a correctly spaced Dair, spike us while we are at the Aether apex. I don’t know the duration of Charizard UpB SA frames…

 

[Ussi]

Ike loses SAF once he starts going up.

Anyone disjointed (haven't seen else wise) can spike Ike out of the apex.

 

[Guilhe]

I was asking for Charizard's UpB SAF info Ussi...

edit: Wow, post 2222 Ussi!

 

[Ussi]

And I wasted 2222 misreading your post how silly of me.

Charizard's SAF frames are like a bit before he starts flying up. once his hitbox is out no more.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

wow i didnt know that about quickdraw.. sorry about that... and i didny know the BS set knockback, but i could swear i have landed more damage with ivy tired :/
Charizards super armor is the firsth 1/3 of fly.. if i recall well

 

[Guilhe]

Does it sweetspot the ledge?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well PKtrainer you can still land different amounts of damage on people depending on how well they DI and weight of characters.

 

[Ussi]

Fly I'm pretty sure sweetspots but I have interuppted it with eruption and dtilt once each.

 

[Deleted member]

i was just addressing umbreonMEEEEEEOW there

are you sure you wanna ride this train?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol that thing makes replying to your post a bit scary as you can see everything you get reported for. This is going into my sig though its just to awesome.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Fly can just sweetspot the ledge at the end of the attack, so interruptinf a ledge catching attempt with dtilt or eruption is totally possible... and to AR: I mean ti the same character at the same percent, maybe it was just a coincidence
@Umbreon: Do you realize that you are making this dicussion even longer?? AR replies to all of your posts

 

[Ussi]

I went and tested the BS knockback and well I still believe its a set knockback. Maybe smaller knockback who knows (not me), I can't control how much I DI each time besides doing it as fast as I can.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

AR? no one has called me that before its usually arturito or burrito or AB but where did AR come from? I'd like to know what the great follow ups for charizards grab release are and if they actually work or if people can PS or affected by EIDI even though I don't know how that works.

 

[Steeler]

loled hard at umbreon.

@arturito

ivy can gimp ike. bair is very very annoying. ivy can string a few of them together to safely pressure ike, and then immediately tether. ike can't really hit ivy most of the time either, he'll lose a lot of vertical from it and risk dying. ivysaur's nair can spike, and then tethering immediately after will make it hard for ike to use that ledge. ivy has far from a guaranteed gimp, but possible, ESPECIALLY if you have to use your double jump beforehand. regardless, ivysaur can pretty safely harrass ike off stage and get a good amount of chip damage in, at worst. bair works against aether and quick draw too.

ivysaur can smash stick the leaf and tilt stick it. the tilted one travels slower, so ivysaur can follow up right behind it by at least putting itself in a better position to space. sh razor leaf to grounded razor leaf is faster than two normal leafs, and is a hassle for ike. he'll have to put his shield up or roll or something. sure he can powershield but by then, ivysaur will be in a better spot than it was before. that's what razor leaf is all about here. with the range and speed ivysaur has on his other attacks, you cannot simply dismiss razor leaf as easily powershielded. it's true, but what kind of OoS options does ike have? jab's the only thing he can really use, and we've already gone over the fact that ivy has a variety of safe moves that aren't in ike's jab range. it's not like ike's going to consistently punish ivy for razor leafing lol. ivy, however, will be able to put itself in a better position and maybe even get an attack in on ike's shield (many of which are safe). ike isn't in auto-lose position from razor leaf, but he is in a worse spot than he was without the leaf. you cannot dismiss it as useless in this matchup.

and yeah, as cris said, the 1-3 for bullet seed number was not just for one stock. different ivysaurs will use bullet seed differently and more or less frequently, but it IS a big factor in this matchup. it really makes up for ivy's lack of solid damage output on anything that isn't nair (which is really solid against ike at close range btw), ftilt, and the power moves. bullet seed is actually pretty safe in some circumstances, usually when the opponent is busy doing something else, hurtboxes are overlapping, or the opponent is above ivysaur.

but hey, if the opportunity does present itself for 3 bullet seeds in one stock, why not?

at low percent, ivysaur's uthrow/dthrow (moreso uthrow) definitely does give ivy an opportunity to bullet seed. read the di and use it below them. ike cannot air dodge it since it's continuous, so you'd probably have to hit ivy before it can use bs. and ike doesn't like trying to hit people below him. it isn't guaranteed but it's one of ivy's most solid setups, behind a nair. i wonder if b reversaling bs actually has a use.

couldn't ivy like...di ike's jabs UP and then bullet seed out of hitstun? naturally this is at mid-high percents so ivy is hit into the air...and it seems to me that ike's jab cancel into grab can be interrupted by a bullet seed. jab lock is just asking for a bullet seed.

when's that tourney? we've got something in kansas city late december, the midwest championships in mid january, and a large ks tourney in late february.

about charizard

zard's fly sweetspots the ledge, but only near the last half of the attack. it's not a problem, zard can just wait a bit to use it to get the sweetspot. zard has like...10 frames of super armor before the attack, none during. it's like ike's aether, basically.

zard's dair looks like it's disjointed sometimes. it's really weird, but i can see it hitting ike out of aether's apex. but i've hit an ike out of aether with zard's fsmash, which was kind of surprising. i think ike's sword hit zard during SA frames or SOMETHING...but i'm not even sure that fsmash has SA because i don't use it all that much lol. also, zard's ftilt is disjointed throughout the whole tail, although i'm not sure of how useful it is against aether. flamethrower is really easy to use on aether. ike will have to di out back offstage, and aether again or something...at which point zard can react accordingly and keep pressuring ike near or off the edge. and ike does NOT want to be there against charizard, his fair, bair, dair, and rock smash are extremely dangerous for ike. not sure about how rock smash would fare against aether, but the sword would "smash" the move's first hitbox. if zard uses it as ike prepares to go up, he might get hit by the chunks, i haven't really tried it.

one point i want to make that i don't think the ikes know is that ivy's ftilt has more range than its dtilt.

anyway, about squirtle since i haven't commented on it, i think. ike won't have an easy time of grabbing squirtle for that grab release. he can di backward from the jab if ike wants to jab cancel it into a grab. ike has mediocre grab range, squirtle can di his aerials to hit a shield and immediately back off with that air speed. and squirtle's speed will annoy ike a lot. if squirtle is anywhere above, below, or behind ike, he won't have an option quick enough before squirtle can do something or just avoid what ike will do. jab's the only thing that can straight up contend with squirtle. even then, squirtle's ftilt has range similar to ike's jab and is like...1 frame slower lol.

ike HAS to stay grounded against squirtle imo. if he's in the air trying to space with fair or something, squirtle can just read that as soon as ike prepares to do so, jump, air dodge the incoming attack, and then hit ike with any of his really quick aerials. or run as close to under ike as possible to do something. soo yeah. grab release to fair is a big boon for ike (i STILL haven't seen a vid of it >:[ ) but it doesn't suddenly make this a big advantage. ike still suffers from a lack in options in all situations that aren't ground v ground, ike facing squirtle.

arturito, how are you di'ing squirt's dthrow in your experiments? sdi and regular di opposite the trajectory? since the attack's trajectory is already diagonal.

 

[Ussi]

Burrito can you hack my wii? I want debug mode for brawl!

/off topic

what are Charizard's follow ups?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Rock smash dude... rock smash :D
LOL, back to serius:
Jab jab to grab, ftilt,dtilt
utilt/usmash/uthrow to uair/fly
fthrow/bthrow to running grab(at low percents)
grab release to stuff
fthrow/bthrow at the edge to fair/dair for the epic spike (horizontal or vertical)
Nair to jab
full damage rock smash to usmash or grab

btw... does that thing the ness boards found to scape from marths grab release works for squirtle??
And to burrito... i refered to you as AR because i saw someone else on this thread doing it o.0

 

[MysticKenji]

btw... does that thing the ness boards found to scape from marths grab release works for squirtle??

I'd doubt it since Squirt is air released and not ground released, but feel free to test it.

 

[•Col•]

I'd doubt it since Squirt is air released and not ground released, but feel free to test it.

I'm pretty sure it was already tested, and it didn't work. I think whenever you airbreak, you follow a set trajectory.

 

[Ussi]

Follow ups look almost identical to ike's. Just a bit longer list though.

I'm baffled why once of the worst HMs in RSE (got stronger in DP) is one of the best moves in brawl. And it should lower defense!

However, RS isn't that easy to land (like tornado easy) but it is the best damage punishing move. RS can be used in any situation too, so it had great mind game potenial.

Anything I get wrong PTs?


And burrito was called A_B not AR

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

loled hard at umbreon.

@arturito

ivy can gimp ike. bair is very very annoying. ivy can string a few of them together to safely pressure ike, and then immediately tether. ike can't really hit ivy most of the time either, he'll lose a lot of vertical from it and risk dying. ivysaur's nair can spike, and then tethering immediately after will make it hard for ike to use that ledge. ivy has far from a guaranteed gimp, but possible, ESPECIALLY if you have to use your double jump beforehand. regardless, ivysaur can pretty safely harrass ike off stage and get a good amount of chip damage in, at worst. bair works against aether and quick draw too.

Aether is a pretty mobile move and if it hits Ivy off the stage it will kill her at 0%. And Ike can use an aerial during both of his jumps and still make it back with aether he doesn't actually have a problem going out to hit people.

ivysaur can smash stick the leaf and tilt stick it. the tilted one travels slower, so ivysaur can follow up right behind it by at least putting itself in a better position to space. sh razor leaf to grounded razor leaf is faster than two normal leafs, and is a hassle for ike. he'll have to put his shield up or roll or something. sure he can powershield but by then, ivysaur will be in a better spot than it was before. that's what razor leaf is all about here. with the range and speed ivysaur has on his other attacks, you cannot simply dismiss razor leaf as easily powershielded. it's true, but what kind of OoS options does ike have? jab's the only thing he can really use, and we've already gone over the fact that ivy has a variety of safe moves that aren't in ike's jab range. it's not like ike's going to consistently punish ivy for razor leafing lol. ivy, however, will be able to put itself in a better position and maybe even get an attack in on ike's shield (many of which are safe). ike isn't in auto-lose position from razor leaf, but he is in a worse spot than he was without the leaf. you cannot dismiss it as useless in this matchup.

You all keep saying this stuff about razor leaf being hassles, Ike not punish razor leaf, and us dismissing it as useless will you please stop? He isn't your character and razor leaf isn't that great of a projectile and no one has said **** razor leaf in the ***. Yes it has some tricks to it but using projectiles you get into Ike's range isn't actually a very smart choice. Plus I don't think Ivy can tail behind razor leaf even if you slow it down that just makes it less threatening plus its range decreases and all of a sudden you are with in Ike's Fair range. Jab is not the only move Ike can use out of shield, depending on the range he has a lot of options especially since right now Ivy is approaching Ike could just use a retreating Fair. You'll be in its range a lot sooner than Ivy's fsmash or w/e his longest move is(your walking forward right now so its not Bair). I'm not sure Ivy has safe moves either, some of the ones you listed where proven wrong right away by people just flat out saying it.

and yeah, as cris said, the 1-3 for bullet seed number was not just for one stock. different ivysaurs will use bullet seed differently and more or less frequently, but it IS a big factor in this matchup. it really makes up for ivy's lack of solid damage output on anything that isn't nair (which is really solid against ike at close range btw), ftilt, and the power moves. bullet seed is actually pretty safe in some circumstances, usually when the opponent is busy doing something else, hurtboxes are overlapping, or the opponent is above ivysaur.

but hey, if the opportunity does present itself for 3 bullet seeds in one stock, why not?

at low percent, ivysaur's uthrow/dthrow (moreso uthrow) definitely does give ivy an opportunity to bullet seed. read the di and use it below them. ike cannot air dodge it since it's continuous, so you'd probably have to hit ivy before it can use bs. and ike doesn't like trying to hit people below him. it isn't guaranteed but it's one of ivy's most solid setups, behind a nair. i wonder if b reversaling bs actually has a use.

If a move as punishable and as easily DIed that can get Ivy killed under 50% is considered a big factor in Ivy's side then that just seems like a problem to me. At close range Nair is probably looses out to Ike's jab.

I think Ike moves trough the air faster than Ivy does on ground plus he could also jump out of the way of BS. It being continuous has nothing to do with airdodging through moves either it's not like air dodges have 1 frame of invisibility 1 frame with out 1 frame with it 1 frame with out.

couldn't ivy like...di ike's jabs UP and then bullet seed out of hitstun? naturally this is at mid-high percents so ivy is hit into the air...and it seems to me that ike's jab cancel into grab can be interrupted by a bullet seed. jab lock is just asking for a bullet seed.

Don't know maybe but I doubt it. I don't think jab > grab would get BSed either because it's jab > shield > shield grab. Ivy would be hitting a shield or the grab armor. I don't think jab lock is asking for BS either you all don't know when it actually starts so far the only one who has tested this came up with frame 4. The only reason marth can get out is because he has invisibility on frame 1.

when's that tourney? we've got something in kansas city late december, the midwest championships in mid january, and a large ks tourney in late february.

It's jan 10th so it sounds like you guys could be open for it. It's a 2 day even and I think theres already more than 90 people coming even OOC =P

about charizard

zard's fly sweetspots the ledge, but only near the last half of the attack. it's not a problem, zard can just wait a bit to use it to get the sweetspot. zard has like...10 frames of super armor before the attack, none during. it's like ike's aether, basically.

zard's dair looks like it's disjointed sometimes. it's really weird, but i can see it hitting ike out of aether's apex. but i've hit an ike out of aether with zard's fsmash, which was kind of surprising. i think ike's sword hit zard during SA frames or SOMETHING...but i'm not even sure that fsmash has SA because i don't use it all that much lol. also, zard's ftilt is disjointed throughout the whole tail, although i'm not sure of how useful it is against aether. flamethrower is really easy to use on aether. ike will have to di out back offstage, and aether again or something...at which point zard can react accordingly and keep pressuring ike near or off the edge. and ike does NOT want to be there against charizard, his fair, bair, dair, and rock smash are extremely dangerous for ike. not sure about how rock smash would fare against aether, but the sword would "smash" the move's first hitbox. if zard uses it as ike prepares to go up, he might get hit by the chunks, i haven't really tried it.

Depending on the stage Ike can aether under it and then move back a bit avoiding the flames completely. Like in FD for example. FT has actually helped me get back a few times and on some stages you can use Aether to reach charizard and hit him before the second FT comes out or what ever follow up is going on.

one point i want to make that i don't think the ikes know is that ivy's ftilt has more range than its dtilt.

That seemed kind of obvious. I assumed Ftilt would have more range at least.

anyway, about squirtle since i haven't commented on it, i think. ike won't have an easy time of grabbing squirtle for that grab release. he can di backward from the jab if ike wants to jab cancel it into a grab. ike has mediocre grab range, squirtle can di his aerials to hit a shield and immediately back off with that air speed. and squirtle's speed will annoy ike a lot. if squirtle is anywhere above, below, or behind ike, he won't have an option quick enough before squirtle can do something or just avoid what ike will do. jab's the only thing that can straight up contend with squirtle. even then, squirtle's ftilt has range similar to ike's jab and is like...1 frame slower lol.

ike HAS to stay grounded against squirtle imo. if he's in the air trying to space with fair or something, squirtle can just read that as soon as ike prepares to do so, jump, air dodge the incoming attack, and then hit ike with any of his really quick aerials. or run as close to under ike as possible to do something. soo yeah. grab release to fair is a big boon for ike (i STILL haven't seen a vid of it >:[ ) but it doesn't suddenly make this a big advantage. ike still suffers from a lack in options in all situations that aren't ground v ground, ike facing squirtle.

I think any PSed move can lead into a grab from squirtle because he will be suffering from hitlag and Ike won't be suffering from anything. DIing back wards is what causes the jab locks. Anyways It doesn't matter how hard it is to grab a grab pretty much means death for squirtle. You could add 200% on us but if we shield that Down smash and grab you guess who is dieing first.

Squirtle can't DI his aerials no one can DI there own moves. (I'm very picky with this) Moving trough the air is not DI its just drifting or w/e name you want to call it besides DI.

And theres that phrase again "annoy Ike a lot". Couldn't you say will help squirtle a lot? You make it sound like you know our character better than us.

Under Ike? later on you say that Ike has to stay grounded (which is probably better lol) why would he be above squirtle? If squirtle is just under a standing Ike then hello jab. If squirtle is behind Ike hello back air which can kill. Or even a pivot jab which would be 1 frame slower.

There is nothing wrong with jab being the only move that can contended with squirtle Its the one we use the most of all and its the best one in the game. Of course this isn't true other things that keep Ike save from squirtle and ways of approaching with things besides jab have been said already.

A move being 1 frame slower doesn't make it as good (ours combos into kill moves). You don't actually know if its 1 frame slower though.

So 18 frame Fair > reaction time of 12 frames + 8 frames to jump + frames for air dodge to start up? If your just going to be air dodging every time Ike jumps too then say hi to empty jump Fsmash after a while. Air dodging trough Fair isn't that easy thats why its our second best move. It seemed that it was already agreed upon not being easy and actually being a bit of a hassle already though.

We believed the match up to be around 60-40 Ike before the chain grab btw, squirtle has problems with people with disjointed hit boxes or range now when you add them together they suddenly aren't a problem anymore? no one said it was game breaking even though it does mean grab = death. This works up against walls very well too since you can't move or dodge.

arturito, how are you di'ing squirt's dthrow in your experiments? sdi and regular di opposite the trajectory? since the attack's trajectory is already diagonal.

Since I was at the edge of the stage DIing left or right would have gotten me killed earlier so I DIed up, if you aren't at the edge of the stage though you can probably live longer as Dthrow is severely affected by DI.

DIing the opposite trajectory does nothing SDI doesn't do much here either.