Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Arturito_Burrito]

What i mean is that ivy can just get in range and dodge ike's attacks, so she can punish... and i cant think of any ike's ranged move against which you cant do it
A froward hydroplane is not a convencional hydroplane, squirtle doesnt have to shellshift first, and its crazy fast.
If im not wrong ikes ftilt lag > perfect shield/ spot dodging lag
Ok so ivy cant break ikes jab... but it can always outspeed it
Bullet seed is almost as fast as squirtles jab, im not making out stuff... and dont ask me to get frame data equipment cause i dont even own a wii ¬¬

*sigh* yes Ivy can get inside Ike's space but Ivy is slow and I don't mean slow like Ike's Fsmash slow but slow in movement. Ivy will have a hard time getting into this space because of it. Plus once inside Ike has good GTFO moves like Nair jab and his throws.

I can't think of any ranged moved period to which you couldn't do this to though, not just Ike. This doesn't mean that range moves are suddenly crap though.

I don't think I've seen a forward hydro plane then but its still HP + Usmash start up going on. Seems like it still gives Ike time to shield. Plus I'm not even sure it will kill early if Ike DIs well and it won't give enough time to change PT since its knock back is Vertical.

You aren't wrong how ever spotdoding and PS won't hurt Ike... And it is Spot dodge + walking forward + start up lag > Ike Ftilt lag.

Almost as fast doesn't mean as fast. It either has to be frame 2 or it doesn't out speed jab and like Ussi mentioned before you can DI the first hit of bullet seed and probably punish it with a ftilt after words since you can punish with an Fsmash if it is blocked or dodged.

 

[Brinzy]

If you DI the first hit, you'd have to DI -> tech towards Ivy -> jab, but that's impossible because teching towards Ivy would get you hit by the seeds anyway. You cannot punish Ivy after DIing the first hit.

 

[Onxy]

Ivy can't camp Ike due to a time limit? Does Ivysaur fall asleep after 2 minutes, or something?

 

[Deleted member]

ike's only threat from PT is squirtle, and squirtle is just annoying more than threatening, and when you kill him @ 60% the game punishes the PT player by forcing him to play ivysaur.

PT sucks. diddy plz.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Ivy really isn't that slow, how many PT have you actually faced? When you jump it becomes pretty obvious you're going to attack, so there's no point in using nair. Ike's grab has crappy range.

Hydroplanes are used as direct attacks, they would usually be used when Ike is vulnerable (like when recovering, landing, etc.).

Spotdodging will hurt Ike, Ivy does not have to walk forward if she's close enough and Ike does not have the attack speed to keep Ivy out of her range. Either way Ivy can use Razor Leaf for hitstun then hit Ike.

You can't DI into an ftilt from the first hit of bullet seed the hitstun is too long and it throws you too high.

Ivy can camp Ike, fatigue doesn't make that much of a difference. Ike cannot magically PS every razor leaf.

Squirtle is the easiest of the three for Ike to beat, and Ivy is the hardest. You haven't been playing many good PTs. And Ike can magically PS all of Diddy's bananas and outrange him so Diddy isn't a threat at all.

 

[Ussi]

I never saw diddy as a threat.

I looked at the frame data of Ivysaur (a thread in the tatical discussion about every character's frame data) and BS comes out frame 4.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Razor Leaf has too much ending lag to follow up with anything.

Since your playing against an Ike you will almost always be on a stage with platforms. Ike could just jump on the platforms to avoid Ivy's SHed razor leaves while getting closer.

 

[The Derrit]

I never saw diddy as a threat.

I looked at the frame data of Ivysaur (a thread in the tatical discussion about every character's frame data) and BS comes out frame 4.

Where is this thread? I'd like to see it so we can use it as data.

Razor Leaf has too much ending lag to follow up with anything.

Since your playing against an Ike you will almost always be on a stage with platforms. Ike could just jump on the platforms to avoid Ivy's SHed razor leaves while getting closer.

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK RAZORLEAF SUCKS

/allcaps

okk... then fullhop razorleaf. that puts ivysaur in an excellent position because ivy's aerial mobility goes up while using razor leaf, and then there are many follow ups in terms of another dj'ed razor leaf, uair from under the platform, rising fair, all sorts of things. I perfer stages with platforms for ivy because he has plenty of attacks that can get through platforms safely.

 

[Zyvera]

that was awesome
thanks for the massive (incomplete review)
my ike could get better now

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Razorleaf is bad compared to things like Falco's lasers or Toon Link's projectile wall. You can only have one out at a time, and there is a fairly recognizable noise as it first comes out. I'd rank it barely above Luigi's fireball, and under Mario's fireballs and Wolf's blaster. At least Mario can have two out at once, which makes things more challenging and brings more pressure. I'd also say it's the least dangerous out of the three projectiles PT has. Watergun I have to watch out for when recovering, and Fire breath sets up other attacks while disrupting my own more effectively then Razorleaf does. The only thing Razorleaf has over the other two is range.

You are also assuming in your full hop situation that Ike just sits there as Ivy comes towards him. What's going to stop him from just falling back down? Nothing. And Ike has a crap load of attacks that get through platforms safely. I have a hard time imagining Ivy has more.

Did you watch those Ike VS Lucas videos a guy posted a page or so back? See how PK fire barely hit? Same basic idea here, except Razorleaf has more range.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ivy can't camp Ike due to a time limit? Does Ivysaur fall asleep after 2 minutes, or something?

acording to steeler yes she does. I didn't actually know it but guess its possible lol.

 

[Ussi]

Where is this thread? I'd like to see it so we can use it as data.

I'd post the URL but I have no access to a computer, as I'm using my phone. I'm sure you can use the magnificent search option.

 

[comboking]

This is a very hard match up for Ike but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqIDuGrgRY8!

on topic Fair is a good edgeguard for charizard. For ivysaur just watch their recovery and try to counter act it. When squirtle recovers don't be standing by the ledge (Water).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ivy really isn't that slow, how many PT have you actually faced? When you jump it becomes pretty obvious you're going to attack, so there's no point in using nair. Ike's grab has crappy range.

Hydroplanes are used as direct attacks, they would usually be used when Ike is vulnerable (like when recovering, landing, etc.).

Spotdodging will hurt Ike, Ivy does not have to walk forward if she's close enough and Ike does not have the attack speed to keep Ivy out of her range. Either way Ivy can use Razor Leaf for hitstun then hit Ike.

You can't DI into an ftilt from the first hit of bullet seed the hitstun is too long and it throws you too high.

Ivy can camp Ike, fatigue doesn't make that much of a difference. Ike cannot magically PS every razor leaf.

Squirtle is the easiest of the three for Ike to beat, and Ivy is the hardest. You haven't been playing many good PTs. And Ike can magically PS all of Diddy's bananas and outrange him so Diddy isn't a threat at all.

Ivy is slow she has horrible aerial movement and she runs slower than Ike IIRC. We aren't talking about her movements we are talking about her ability to move. My partner who mains PT has placed pretty high in tournaments usually in the top 10. I've also played steeler which according to a video thread is considered one of the better PT mains.

Have you ever been to a tournament?


PT mains are just being thick headed now. Ftilt is tipped when tipped its save unless you PS there is no way around that stop looking for loop holes.

First off you have no idea how much hit stun BS has the PT boards are lacking in this department and even if you can't punish with Ftilt you could punish with Bair. Although raphael said this might not be possible either I think that you could tech in place then at least hit with a dash attack since BS is incredibly laggy.

second you are comparing the banana one of the best if not the best projectile in the game to one of the worst. Ike can PS most Razor leafs if ivy is just camping and he in a neutral position.



You should all stop trying to find a loop hole in spaced Ftilts and Fairs as there is none for PT only characters who can do it are ones who are incredibly fast like Sonic, fox and Shiek with her boost smash.

 

[comboking]

Where is this thread? I'd like to see it so we can use it as data.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202204 This should be it

 

[Brinzy]

Although raphael said this might not be possible either I think that you could tech in place then at least hit with a dash attack since BS is incredibly laggy.

A dash attack? I don't think so. The only time you can reliably get a tech -> follow-up is if you teched into the ground right next to Ivy and then did something, which would require incredible timing and reaction. I don't even think that this is possible, because in order to DI the first hit of BS, you'd have to actually DI left or right or... somewhere that isn't down, I believe, meaning that you're not going to hit the ground. I don't think you can really DI the thing and then hit Ivysaur, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Ussi]

CK you have to try and beat your record on not posting here.

 

[Ussi]

Edit: oops double post! Sorry!


Burrito, I haven't been able to punish a BS I DI'd the first hit out of. I'd test it myself but I can't access my wii.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

meh I'll take your guys word for it. Still avoiding 40% damage is a very nice reward and it doesn't out speed jab like people where saying.

You should also just ignore him as long as people are talking intelligently he doesn't post often. Shall we finish charizard now so we can do diddy and make umbreon happy?

 

[•Col•]

I just tested it, and you can punish BS if you DI. All you have to do is use Quickdraw RIGHT before you hit the ground. If you do it too early, it wont register, and you'll just hit against the ground.

Again, I tested this myself, so I may have done something wrong. I'm 99% sure you can do this though. D:

 

[comboking]

meh I'll take your guys word for it. Still avoiding 40% damage is a very nice reward and it doesn't out speed jab like people where saying.

You should also just ignore him as long as people are talking intelligently he doesn't post often. Shall we finish charizard now so we can do diddy and make umbreon happy?

I can talk intelligently wanna see
I will on the next matchup

CK you have to try and beat your record on not posting here.

What do you mean by beat my record

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well there isn't much room for error the only thing that could happen is that Ivy could shield earlier than you did but you can actually use an aerial before you can use a B durring hit stun so maybe Bair is possible. Or an auto canceled Nair to avoid teching and then some sort of follow up. You could also jump just as early as using QD so there might be a few follow ups but I'm just theory crafting here.

edit: ignore everything he says. It's not worth more flame wars.

 

[comboking]

battle me I will prove I AM BETTER SINCE MY BREAK! I am never going to give in no matter what I am also making a CV.

 

[Brinzy]

Oh for crying out loud... nevermind, I don't want to say anything.


Anyway, if QD works, then there's your answer.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

so you mind giving an opening paragraph on charizard so we can warp this up? Unless theres still ivy stuff thats left but not sure what there would be.

 

[Ussi]

Burrito, let's just be happy we avoided damage. QD is not worth the risk since QD is easily punished. Just get into ftilt range.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Yah I probably wouldn't go and try to punish it either unless there is a save way to do it. / small talk

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Could you pull out a jab in time? Or do you land too far away?

 

[Palpi]

You could probably hit with the 2nd jab, if he doesn't punish you quick enough since the 2nd one is the kick.

 

[Brinzy]

It won't reach; if it does, it can be shielded.

It's not that important anyway. Ussi's statement is most important.

 

[•Col•]

Burrito, let's just be happy we avoided damage. QD is not worth the risk since QD is easily punished. Just get into ftilt range.

But.... QD can't get punished in this case. xD Ivysaur can't shield in time. If you DI the first hit of Bullet Seed, it's pretty easy to do if you practice it a few times beforehand. <.<

And here's a short video I made to show Ike punishing Bullet Seed, and how much lag Bullet Seed has: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tM2LLDAPA


EDIT:

It won't reach; if it does, it can be shielded.

It's not that important anyway. Ussi's statement is most important.

And it's not. xD Because Quickdraw CAN'T be punished. Unless Ivysaur is at a very low percent, I guess. o-o Ivysaur can't shield nearly in time.

 

[SaltyKracka]

But.... QD can't get punished in this case. xD Ivysaur can't shield in time. If you DI the first hit of Bullet Seed, it's pretty easy to do if you practice it a few times beforehand. <.<

And here's a short video I made to show Ike punishing Bullet Seed, and how much lag Bullet Seed has: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tM2LLDAPA


EDIT:



And it's not. xD Because Quickdraw CAN'T be punished. Unless Ivysaur is at a very low percent, I guess. o-o Ivysaur can't shield nearly in time.

Good find Colaya.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hey Colaya, can you test Utilt? It looks like at low %, Ike lands within range for Utilt.....

 

[•Col•]

Hey Colaya, can you test Utilt? It looks like at low %, Ike lands within range for Utilt.....

I don't think that'd work. Because if you land on the ground, you bounce off of it. xD And if you tech it, it takes too long.

The only way I could see it work, is if you used nair before hitting the ground, autcancel it, and utilt the other direction..... But that'd be ridiculously more difficult. <_<

Plus, you'd land too far out of range sometimes. Quickdraw is just A LOT easier.

 

[Deleted member]

*jabs this character out of discussion topic*

 

[Ussi]

Nice job Colaya, that helps show how laggy BS is. Makes sense since it does major damage. However Ivysaur does not use BS so expectily, but I still manage to DI out of it so the QD is good.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol umbreon is going to start banning people if we don't move on. And QD can always be punished thats how bad it sucks =P

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Move on? We need to at least figure out what stage would be best for Ike against PT yet.

As crazy as this may sound......I think Rainbow Cruise could work if the Ike player had the stage memorized. There are long sections with no ledges for Ivy to tether onto, may opportunities to walk-off fair Squirtle to his doom and still make it back, and Charizard is going to be feeling just as awkward as Ike, except with a smaller range on his aerial game exchanged with the ability to glide. I honestly think only Squirtle could be a true challenge for Ike, and thats only due to his quick aerial movement.

Of course, if Ike doesn't know the place like the back of his hand, he's screwed. Delfino Plaza would be a safer CP. The main floating platform Ivy can't tether, and there are walk-off sections for Chain Grabbing fun. There is also water spiking which we can take advantage of. Charizard would be the biggest "threat" here, even then it would just be neutral stage wise. No advantage for either character (unless you count water spiking, in which case it's a slight advantage for Ike stage wise).

The other good stage would be Castle Siege. Walk-off chain grabbing against Squirtle in stage 2, small stage area in part 1 with good platforms for attacking under or walk-off fairing, and tilting in part 3 to potentially screw over Ivy's tether. Charizard again would be neutral stage wise here.

 

[The Derrit]

But.... QD can't get punished in this case. xD Ivysaur can't shield in time. If you DI the first hit of Bullet Seed, it's pretty easy to do if you practice it a few times beforehand. <.<

And here's a short video I made to show Ike punishing Bullet Seed, and how much lag Bullet Seed has: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tM2LLDAPA


EDIT:



And it's not. xD Because Quickdraw CAN'T be punished. Unless Ivysaur is at a very low percent, I guess. o-o Ivysaur can't shield nearly in time.

Good find, I'll give you that. It's something for us PTs to keep in mind as well!

 

[WeretigerX]

This is a really good guide. A lot of great points. One thing I've noticed is that Ike does EXTREEMLY well on Green greens. Where the block area is, if you drop down and Aether, it can not be edgehogged. If say, Marth goes on one ledge, Ike will hit the other, then you could just bair really fast and aether again. Besides that, the screen length makes his kills rediculously early. Also, Aether can also blow up the bomb blocks without Ike touching it, and if he does, no knockback.