Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Wyvern-x]

Ike could just sit at edge charging eruption. When Ivy is pulling up from the tether lets it go and Ivy is dead.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

3 posts from umbreon in one match up discussion. He is unpredictable :bigrocket

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Ivysaur can camp Ike. Any screwed approached is punished by a bullet seed(or various other attacks), and once Ivy pulls it off once Ike's percent is in the red zone. Razor Leaf slows Ike's approach, messes up his mindgame, and generally prevents him from using sideB. Recoveries are a fruitless argument we both know that if you knock Ivy far enough it's practically dead, but it doesn't break the the match considering that you can not only switch pokemon at will but when you die.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

*holds back from flaming*

Maybe a PT main would like to tell him how dumb he is.

 

[Brinzy]

Just move on. I'm sick of discussing PT match-ups because they always result in flaming, posts that talk about how everyone is better than PT, and "omg this character doesn't matter" posts from people who only care about their own characters when PT players need info. Just ****ing move on already. If there aren't any numbers, who cares? I can't remember the last time I felt stressed out on a message board.

 

[•Col•]

Just move on. I'm sick of discussing Ike match-ups because they always result in flaming, posts that talk about how everyone is better than Ike, and "omg this character doesn't matter" posts from people who only care about their own characters when Ike players need info.

Fixed.

 

[Ussi]

Colaya PT boards get the same treatment we get from other boards. ~_~ we're both underestimated.

Blah I'm just stressed and am taking it out on the match up discussion.

 

[Brinzy]

Thank you, Ussi.

Colaya, what you just did is exactly the bull**** I'm sick and tired of. Don't marginalize my comments again.

 

[•Col•]

Colaya, what you just did is exactly the bull**** I'm sick and tired of. Don't marginalize my comments again.

Uh... What? I wasn't trying to undermine you or anything... o_O

I just thought it was funny because that is exactly what happens with us Ike mains too. And I'm not sure how I "marginalized" your comment.

EDIT: And eh? @_@ Ussi gets a thanks, but I get yelled at? I don't understand what I did. I was implying what Ussi said... o_o Cuz I changed your post...?

 

[Brinzy]

I just took the whole "fixed" thing as some turnaround of my statement as to what was really happening here, as if I haven't figured out that Ike gets his crap just like PT gets his.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'd like to see one of these "OMG this character doesn't matter post" only similar one I can think of is steelers post on Fsmash punishing bullet seed. Most of the Ike boards are very open to other characters being better than them I've actually argued for days against some match ups where people don't think we do as bad.

The talk about everyone thinking there better than PT also affects Ike a lot. Hell even the PT boards think it with squirtle with the only reason being omg we're faster than you.

I'm not sure what info you are looking for though.

Squirtle

Pros:
-Utilt combos high at low percents.
-Can gimp with water gun if aimed right.
-Out speeds almost every move


Cons:
-Very hard time killing as the easiest to land kill move can be survived fresh at 159% with DI at the edge of the stage maybe higher if your at the edge facing in.
-Out ranged
-Over powered
-Hard time approaching
-Can't punish safe moves

Ike:

Pros:
-Long range
-Chain grab that can lead into a kill/gimp move.
-Safe defensive moves.
-Safe kill moves.
-Survives until high percents
-falls fast enough to punish a pokemon switch
-Combos at low percents (up to 30% from 0)
-kills at very low percents
-moves combo into kill moves

Cons:
- Practically every move is out sped by one or another.
- Can be comboed pretty high at low percents
- Easily gimped if he doesn't recover right.
- Can be punished easily if he uses laggy moves.

Ivy

Pros:
- Decent range
- Multi hit moves that combo
- Projectile to force approach
- Moves that build up damage fast

Cons:
- Still out ranged
- Extremely bad aerial movement
- Slow ground speed
- Horrendous recovery
- Very unsafe moves.
- Can not punish Ike's safe moves

Ike:

Pros:
- Out ranges
- Safe kill moves
- Safe defensive moves.
- Can punish extremely well
- Fast GTFO move.
- Survives until high percents
- falls fast enough to punish a pokemon switch
- Combos at low percents (up to 30% from 0)
- kills at very low percents
- moves combo into kill moves

Anything you'd like to add? We haven't talked about charizard yet either.


edit: I don't actually see much flame going on and to me this discussion has been going on very well.

 

[YagamiLight]

Nice list there, AB.

If I may, I suggest you add that Eruption is better than usual against Ivysaur due to the fact that fire moves have greater effects on him.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I thought about that but decided against it as Eruption is a very situational move. You could use it a bit more often against her by standing a bit away from the ledge giving room for the ivy to tether and then doing a sliding eruption to hit him while he is coming up but meh thats just a situation it could be used more often.

edit: I want to see if I'm missing anything from the PT side as I'm pretty sure I covered Ike fairly well maybe leaving out a few specific tricks depending on stages.

I honestly can't see squirtling gaining anything but hell I'm wide open to suggestions. Pretty sure he doesn't have safe moves though as he has crap range and crap power meaning low shield stun and umm low push back? Is that what you would call it?

 

[Brinzy]

I'd like to see one of these "OMG this character doesn't matter post"

can we talk about a character that matters now?

Most of the Ike boards are very open to other characters being better than them I've actually argued for days against some match ups where people don't think we do as bad.

The talk about everyone thinking there better than PT also affects Ike a lot. Hell even the PT boards think it with squirtle with the only reason being omg we're faster than you.

To the first part, I'm not necessarily singling out the Ike board. It happens everywhere. I've discussed PT, so far, on the Ness board, the Lucas board, the Wolf board, and here, and a few others on the PT board itself, and each and every single time, someone has to go, "___ beats PT because PT is not a good character/worse than our character." It's annoying because that logic makes virtually no sense. I am aware that it happens to Ike as well, but that doesn't mean we need to go back and forward with it. Yes, I am also aware that PT players do it to others, but really, except for the Wolf board, none of these PT discussions end remotely well.

To the second part, I'm not sure what you meant to say here. Literally, I'm reading that the **** that gets said about PT affects Ike, but I'm not sure if you just mean "____ is better than PT/Ike." I do believe that Squirtle's speed does help him out, but I'm 95% sure that I've been on "neutral" with this match-up, before the grab thing came into play. I'm probably at 55:45 Ike now, which is the same I say for Ike vs. Jigglypuff, as both match-ups are very, very similar from the aerials to the grab-release -> aerial follow-up thing. The main difference is Jigglypuff's famed aerial combat vs. Squirtle's much better ground attacks... but the point I'm trying to make here is that there will naturally be things that both sides believe help them out in fights, which has been provided for the most part so far. I'm just getting tired of extremely stupid comments, like the one I just quoted.

Sorry for outbursting. I just hit a limit out of nowhere.


Don't forget to mention Squirtle's aerial mobility. It's pretty good. Not that I'll be using it all the time vs. the sword...

 

[adumbrodeus]

To the first part, I'm not necessarily singling out the Ike board. It happens everywhere. I've discussed PT, so far, on the Ness board, the Lucas board, the Wolf board, and here, and a few others on the PT board itself, and each and every single time, someone has to go, "___ beats PT because PT is not a good character/worse than our character." It's annoying because that logic makes virtually no sense. I am aware that it happens to Ike as well, but that doesn't mean we need to go back and forward with it. Yes, I am also aware that PT players do it to others, but really, except for the Wolf board, none of these PT discussions end remotely well.

To the second part, I'm not sure what you meant to say here. Literally, I'm reading that the **** that gets said about PT affects Ike, but I'm not sure if you just mean "____ is better than PT/Ike." I do believe that Squirtle's speed does help him out, but I'm 95% sure that I've been on "neutral" with this match-up, before the grab thing came into play. I'm probably at 55:45 Ike now, which is the same I say for Ike vs. Jigglypuff, as both match-ups are very, very similar from the aerials to the grab-release -> aerial follow-up thing. The main difference is Jigglypuff's famed aerial combat vs. Squirtle's much better ground attacks... but the point I'm trying to make here is that there will naturally be things that both sides believe help them out in fights, which has been provided for the most part so far. I'm just getting tired of extremely stupid comments, like the one I just quoted.

Sorry for outbursting. I just hit a limit out of nowhere.

Try discussing match-ups for the Ganon boards sometime, even the FALCON boards look down on us.

Suggestion: Do this character by character and base the final numbers on how well PT can practically limit usage of the two that do the worst.


I figure that charizard is probably the most effective in this match-up, but he hasn't really had that much discussion.

You might want to think about it in terms of who can safely poke who. (Sorry, don't know the exact properties of charizard's dtilt, so I can't really be more specific).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol well that is a slap to the face no only to you but to me since I was denying the Ike boards being like that.
Anyways Umbreon is weird like I said its a miracle that he has posted 3 times in a single match up. Don't let it get to you, I actually think PT matters since my doubles partner mains him =P

What I meant though was that Ike gets the same kind of treatment that PT does. Although the things they say about PT does affect Ike because it feeds a stereo type of oh that character sucks lol 90:10 match up because we have guns.


Thinking of jigs and squirtle the same way is not a really good thing to do. For one good aerial combat makes it a lot easier to get by Ike than good grounded combat. Jigs can edge guard much better because of it and has better follow ups. It also makes dodging attacks a lot easier and getting into Ike's space better because Ike's main defensive moves are aerials.

Aerial combat also takes away Ike's super awesome jab which can now be used to damage squirtle and set up kill moves.

Sure they are similar but the small differences in styles can change match ups completely.


edit: the ganon boards think its a neutral on Ike I think we have it worse... or was it the falcon boards hmm....

Anyways thats kind of what we are doing adumbordues and its also the reason charizard hasn't has much discussion left and the reason I left him out of my list.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yup, ike and PT boards get the same stuff, "zomg this character sucks he is at a big disadvantage lololo !!!11one!!1".. that is just stupid... but i think we have to focus more on the matchup analysis than complaining about that
ArturitoBurrito, i know ike has slightly more range, but ivysaurs long ranged attacks are pretty faster, so ivy can space better than ike IMO, and thats why i say that ftilt wont tip a lot

 

[Guilhe]

Just one observation over Arturito’s pros and cons list: Ivysaur projectiles should not force us to approach, at least while the fatigue is not on.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

*holds back from flaming*

Maybe a PT main would like to tell him how dumb he is.

I hope you aren't talking about me, because I am a PT main (and have been for several months) I just haven't changed my settings. I've seconded Ike since I got the game I have far more experience in this matchup than you do.

From what see you underestimate PT a lot. Squirtle shouldn't have to kill Ike onstage, he can gimp him and kill him offstage with dair and fair. At close range Ike stands no chance against Squirtle. Squirt's jab, ftilt, utilt, and grab are all faster than Ike's jab. Squirtle can string together fthrows at low percentages. Ike has a big range advantage, and can keep Squirtle from approaching a lot. Squirtle is really light and can be killed quickly if Ike lands the right attack. Due to Ike's heaviness Squirt may not be able to get Ike's percent high enough to kill before he fatigues.

Ike outranging Ivy matters little because Ivy's ranged moves are much faster. Like I said before Ivy can camp Ike and there is little Ike can do. Ivy's bair can keep Ike at bay. Any screwup past, say, 60% can be punished with a lost life; and any screwups before that can easily get you to around 60%(bullet seed). Ivysaur has plenty of safe moves she's a defensive character. Only advantage I can see is air game for Ike

A couple of Charizard's moves have good range, speed, and power. Rock Smash can rack up damage quick. Flamethrower can throw Ike off his game. Offstage Charizard is a monster and Ike has a pretty sorry recovery. If Ike get Zard in the air he can keep him there for a while which is really dangerous considering Ike's strength. It's also not hard for Ike to edgeguard Zard, and Zard's slow and predictable recovery can lead to a dtilt death.

 

[Ussi]

no Guile, the projectile occupies us whether we block or not.

Ivy doesn't have the speed to keep up with Ike's range and mobility. ivy is slow on ground and air. Other charactors usually have one or both to outspeed Ike.

Ivy cannot camp Ike. He has a projectile that is easily blocked. All it does is get in the way. It doesn't stop us. Ivysaur bair can't stop Ike's fair since Ike's fair has more mobility and range on it. You don't debunk the mobility otherwise Squirtle's mobility advantage on Ike means nothing and we can make the match up even worse for Squirtle.


Charizard is the hardest of the three for Ike. Rock Smash is easy to see coming, however is it more effective than bullet seed. I normally just get hit by the debris though but I have taken the full 45% before. But, Ike out ranges the rock smash until the debris comes out but the debris takes a while to come out.

Charizard's dtilt is a real good killer on Ike, fast and strong. His Usmash is strong too sometimes I get knocked too far away from the first hit to the 2nd hit. I think either hyphen smashes mess up Charizard's usmash or I did some SDI from the first hit or both.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

So ftilt, dtilt, jab, bair, nair, and uair aren't fast? Hmmm...

Every projectile is easily blocked if you use it in a way that it can be easily blocked, and if you block it and Ivy spaces it right, then she can run in and grab him. Ike can't approach Ivy, all she has to do is stand still, you don't even have to use razor leaf. bair would not be used against and fair and it's faster anyway.

You're supposed to use bullet seed defensively, so it should be compared to an offensive attack like rock smash..

And just as a sidenote, since I don't think you Ike players know this, Squirtle's Usmash is stronger than Charizard's.

 

[SaltyKracka]

So ftilt, dtilt, jab, bair, nair, and uair aren't fast? Hmmm...

Not enough range to get in after a retreating fair, not enough speed, means we outspace you easily.

Every projectile is easily blocked if you use it in a way that it can be easily blocked, and if you block it and Ivy spaces it right, then she can run in and grab him. Ike can't approach Ivy, all she has to do is stand still, you don't even have to use razor leaf. bair would not be used against and fair and it's faster anyway.

Or Ike could just retreating jump over it and reset position, making it so that if Ivy camps, he gets fatuiged, which gives Ike the edge. As for the rest of that....feh, not worth my time.

 

[Ussi]

Eh I know Squritle's usmash is stronger. However its harder to land. I get hit by Charizard's usmash more than Squirtle's. I can even avoid Squirtle's usmash the entire stock.

When did i say ftilt, dtilt, jab, bair, nair, and uair are slow? uair I'm not gonna even count since I'm focusing on horizontal movement only. Ivysaur can't keep up with Ike's air mobility to use those moves. And Nair isn't used much since Ivysaur would need to get in. It's safer for Ivysaur to use ftilt, dtilt, bair, and jab.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

You said that ivysaur didnt have the speed to keep up with ike's range and movibility
Which is worng, because you can airdodge/spotdodge/perfect shield/outspeed anyone of ikes ranged options, and then punish with one of ivys fast moves like any tilt,bullet seed, nair or uair
Please stop saying "ZOMG IKE CAN AVOID RAZOR LEAF IVY GETS FATIGUED IKE HAS THE ADVANTEGE !!ONE!!!11LOLOL"... and please note that avoiding razor leaf can put you on a bad position
And squirtles usmash is stronger than zards, so if you get hit by it you will die sooner than if you get hit with charizard's.. but squirtles is kinda slow and charizards is pretty fast( starts before frame 10).. anyway squirtle is still dangerous because hydroplaning... forward hydroplaning is too good

 

[The Derrit]

Tell me, what are the frames for Ivy's fsmash? I could not find anything on the PT boards.

We don't have any solid frame data, but i tested last night, and just by sight alone it was easy to tell which was faster, I had my friend ftilt repeatedly and me fsmash repeatedly, and fsmash comes out slightly faster and recovers a good deal faster. Both of us agreed it was a significant difference.

 

[SaltyKracka]

You said that ivysaur didnt have the speed to keep up with ike's range and movibility
Which is worng, because you can airdodge/spotdodge/perfect shield/outspeed anyone of ikes ranged options, and then punish with one of ivys fast moves like any tilt,bullet seed, nair or uair
Please stop saying "ZOMG IKE CAN AVOID RAZOR LEAF IVY GETS FATIGUED IKE HAS THE ADVANTEGE !!ONE!!!11LOLOL"... and please note that avoiding razor leaf can put you on a bad position
And squirtles usmash is stronger than zards, so if you get hit by it you will die sooner than if you get hit with charizard's.. but squirtles is kinda slow and charizards is pretty fast( starts before frame 10).. anyway squirtle is still dangerous because hydroplaning... forward hydroplaning is too good

1. You assume that Ike's attacks are all perfectly defendable and punishable, well why not Ivy's attacks then too? [Crisimitation]LIEKOMGIKECANHASDODGEPSANDTHENJABTHE****OUTOFIVY100-0[/Crisimitation]. It's a logical fallacy.
2. Please stop acting like Razor Leaf lets you camp forever and forces us to approach immediately, because it actually benefits Ike if Ivy decides to camp at first, seeing as how fatigue IS a factor. Please also note that trying to throw a projectile with that much lag can also put Ivy in a bad position.

 

[Ussi]

We don't have any solid frame data, but i tested last night, and just by sight alone it was easy to tell which was faster, I had my friend ftilt repeatedly and me fsmash repeatedly, and fsmash comes out slightly faster and recovers a good deal faster. Both of us agreed it was a significant difference.

I'll take your word for it then. Ivy's fsmash can probably punish a Ike's whiffed ftilt then. Of course saying you have super good reflexes or predicted it.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ok, so we agree on ivys fsmash punishing ikes ftilt possible, but hard...
If ike can powershield razor leaf, ivy can powershield ike's moves; thats what i mean, and ike's jab wont help a lot because bullet seed interrupts the jab combo...
razor leaf is somewhat laggy, but never as much as ike's attacks ( excluding fair, and that one comes out slowly)

 

[Ussi]

I have yet to ever get interuptted by BS during the jab combo. Marth's dolphin slash has only worked on me if he was jabbed while in the air, and that has invincibility frames.

 

[prOAPC]

looks like you haven't posted anything yet about the Lucas match up, so please watch this fights before you say anything
Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas) 3

Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas) 2

Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas)

APC (Lucas) VS Silver (Ike)

 

[Ussi]

looks like you haven't posted anything yet about the Lucas match up, so please watch this fights before you say anything
Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas) 3

Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas) 2

Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas)

APC (Lucas) VS Silver (Ike)

I'm happy you actually have a competent Ike in that video. Just wow though in the first match o_o... jabs > Lucas lol.. (assuming they are in reversed order)

I recommend everyone watching those videos, they are good matches.

 

[MysticKenji]

Squirt's jab, ftilt, utilt, and grab are all faster than Ike's jab.

All non-tether grabs are frame 6.
Ike's jab is frame 4.

And I'm 99% sure that the only way to interrupt Ike's jab is with invincibility.

 

[Ussi]

I'm 101% sure only invincibility gets thru Ike's jab.

 

[prOAPC]

I'm happy you actually have a competent Ike in that video. Just wow though in the first match o_o... jabs > Lucas lol.. (assuming they are in reversed order)

I recommend everyone watching those videos, they are good matches.

Ike's jab cancel was new to me
EDIT: i post the same fight twice, i correct it
Silver (Ike) vs APC (Lucas) 3

 

[Rykoshet]

All non-tether grabs are frame 6.
Ike's jab is frame 4.

And I'm 99% sure that the only way to interrupt Ike's jab is with invincibility.

Frame 3 and other ways to interrupt the jab are with ... faster jabs (Zss, squirtle, falco, fox) or various other moves (grenade, bullet seed, both come out on frame 1)

 

[Ussi]

Frame 3 and other ways to interrupt the jab are with ... faster jabs (Zss, squirtle, falco, fox) or various other moves (grenade, bullet seed, both come out on frame 1)

I don't think they INTERUPT (minus grenade). They can hit before jab but not during.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I hope you aren't talking about me, because I am a PT main (and have been for several months) I just haven't changed my settings. I've seconded Ike since I got the game I have far more experience in this matchup than you do.

From what see you underestimate PT a lot. Squirtle shouldn't have to kill Ike onstage, he can gimp him and kill him offstage with dair and fair. At close range Ike stands no chance against Squirtle. Squirt's jab, ftilt, utilt, and grab are all faster than Ike's jab. Squirtle can string together fthrows at low percentages. Ike has a big range advantage, and can keep Squirtle from approaching a lot. Squirtle is really light and can be killed quickly if Ike lands the right attack. Due to Ike's heaviness Squirt may not be able to get Ike's percent high enough to kill before he fatigues.

Ike outranging Ivy matters little because Ivy's ranged moves are much faster. Like I said before Ivy can camp Ike and there is little Ike can do. Ivy's bair can keep Ike at bay. Any screwup past, say, 60% can be punished with a lost life; and any screwups before that can easily get you to around 60%(bullet seed). Ivysaur has plenty of safe moves she's a defensive character. Only advantage I can see is air game for Ike

A couple of Charizard's moves have good range, speed, and power. Rock Smash can rack up damage quick. Flamethrower can throw Ike off his game. Offstage Charizard is a monster and Ike has a pretty sorry recovery. If Ike get Zard in the air he can keep him there for a while which is really dangerous considering Ike's strength. It's also not hard for Ike to edgeguard Zard, and Zard's slow and predictable recovery can lead to a dtilt death.

You are a ****en moron. It doesn't matter if you use both characters frequently your still stupid.

No one has frame data on PT so stop pulling moves out of your ***. For all we know even squirtles jab doesn't out speed ours and I'm pretty sure that squirtle's grab doesn't come out on frame 1 or 2. Stringing Fthrows is also a very stupid thing to say as all you have to do is jump or walk to get out of that stupid as string.

At close range squirtle is going to have to deal with the best jab move in the game that can combo into kill moves or a chain grab that leads into a gimp/kill move.

Ivy can not camp Ike because she suffers from a time limit. She could try and annoy Ike with razor leafs and create an opening but not camp. Ivy's ranged moves aren't that much faster than Ike, Ike has slow moves but they aren't all his Fsmash. If a jab gets shielded Ike isn't going to be dieing at 60% I honestly think you haven't played either character before and are just reposting things you've seen in this thread and adding some other random BS.


All of this has been answered before anyways and I won't bother with charizard since the people who actually know about PT haven't said anything yet.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Thats why some people say that this game sucks, the lack of hitstun lets people attack even when you are jab comboing them... and bullet seed being a 1-2 frame move... well...you know
Those vids are great, that ike player is a lot better than ... me (yes i play with ike sometimes, its pretty fun, and i love when i do "la jugada de ike" )
Please dont turn this a brawl vs melee discussion because of my post
Edit: Looked at AR's post
Squirtle's jab is 4 TIMES FASTER THAN IKE'S... 4 times dude
and the same with bullet seed, im not sure, but i think squirtle can jab ike out of his jab combo

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

You said that ivysaur didnt have the speed to keep up with ike's range and movibility
Which is worng, because you can airdodge/spotdodge/perfect shield/outspeed anyone of ikes ranged options, and then punish with one of ivys fast moves like any tilt,bullet seed, nair or uair
Please stop saying "ZOMG IKE CAN AVOID RAZOR LEAF IVY GETS FATIGUED IKE HAS THE ADVANTEGE !!ONE!!!11LOLOL"... and please note that avoiding razor leaf can put you on a bad position
And squirtles usmash is stronger than zards, so if you get hit by it you will die sooner than if you get hit with charizard's.. but squirtles is kinda slow and charizards is pretty fast( starts before frame 10).. anyway squirtle is still dangerous because hydroplaning... forward hydroplaning is too good

Air dodging spotdoding and perfect shields don't make you faster. Not trying to insult you but please make more sense.

Anyways from what I got you said you could punish once again which is untrue for god's sake. An Air dodge slows your moves down because you have to wait till it ends. Same with the spot dodge. Perfect shields would allow you to punish if you drop it in time. Hardly anyone drops a PS on frame 1. Out speeding won't be happening because you'll just be swinging at air. You where talking about Ike's fast moves remember? It's not like Ivy can run or jump at Ike in order to cover that range because Ivy has slow movement.

If you see a squirtle hydroplaning at high percents you can expect a Usmash. This makes it even more telegraphed than Ike because you get to see a move that tells you its coming.

We don't have any solid frame data, but i tested last night, and just by sight alone it was easy to tell which was faster, I had my friend ftilt repeatedly and me fsmash repeatedly, and fsmash comes out slightly faster and recovers a good deal faster. Both of us agreed it was a significant difference.

How ever your eye can not see when the hit box comes out. Especially at normal speeds. Ivy's Fsmash is still the unsafe move. I don't think anyone denied it being faster in the first place.

Ok, so we agree on ivys fsmash punishing ikes ftilt possible, but hard...
If ike can powershield razor leaf, ivy can powershield ike's moves; thats what i mean, and ike's jab wont help a lot because bullet seed interrupts the jab combo...
razor leaf is somewhat laggy, but never as much as ike's attacks ( excluding fair, and that one comes out slowly)

No we don't agree and ussi said nothing about that. He said she could punish a wiffed Ftilt and anyone can do that because this means it missed Ivy completely with out the Ivy doing anything. Meaning you suffer from no lag at all.

Ivy can not punish a Shielded or dodged Ftilt because she will be suffering from shield stun or the lag of the spot dodge. And no one said anything about Ivy's Fsmash having as much range as Ike's Ftilt.

Speed is only 1 of the factors involving a safe on shield move.

Thats why some people say that this game sucks, the lack of hitstun lets people attack even when you are jab comboing them... and bullet seed being a 1-2 frame move... well...you know
Those vids are great, that ike player is a lot better than ... me (yes i play with ike sometimes, its pretty fun, and i love when i do "la jugada de ike" )
Please dont turn this a brawl vs melee discussion because of my post

I went and tested this and Ivy can not BS out of Ike's jab. If the Ike holds the A button then Ivy can't do anything.

I believe it is the same way for every other move and the only reason Marth can get out is if you jab cancel or if (like Ussi said) he is in the air causing the second jab to miss.

edit: you guys need to get actual frame data in here instead of staying that half of PT's moves only take 1 or 2 frames to come out. It's not hard to get remotely accurate if you have a good recording equipment go download a trail version of adobe premier and look at ever frame individually.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

What i mean is that ivy can just get in range and dodge ike's attacks, so she can punish... and i cant think of any ike's ranged move against which you cant do it
A froward hydroplane is not a convencional hydroplane, squirtle doesnt have to shellshift first, and its crazy fast.
If im not wrong ikes ftilt lag > perfect shield/ spot dodging lag
Ok so ivy cant break ikes jab... but it can always outspeed it
Bullet seed is almost as fast as squirtles jab, im not making out stuff... and dont ask me to get frame data equipment cause i dont even own a wii ¬¬