You would have to learn to talk first umbreon. This match up has actually had 2 posts from you its a record!!!
squirtle was likely fatigued in our match, arturo. try a fresh dthrow (since squirtles save it to kill) on a non-fatigued squirtle vs ike at 150% at the same spot as our match. you will very likely die regardless of your di. dthrow near the edge is way too good for squirtle. :D
charizard's dthrow, on the other hand, is pretty ****ty. a 'guaranteed ko' for zard, at the edge of any normal stage, has to be like 160% because the knockback isn't as great as squirt's, and the trajectory is more horizontal.
anyway how many safe moves does ike have that is outside of jab range? because ivysaur has a lot of pretty safe moves at that kind of distance.
ps punishing bullet seed is kind of a dumb argument because everyone in the game can punish a missed move like that. so you can get fsmashed. big deal. power shield something ike has and ivysaur can immediately bullet seed or fsmash. ivysaur should be using bullet seed infrequently, and to punish one of ike's tilts or smashes. bullet seed is fast enough to interrupt ike's jab combo. naturally at lower percents since i'm assuming jab's hitstun grows as the opponent's percent does.
edit @ guilhe. just because the pokemon are fatigued doesn't mean that ivysaur's bair can't space an aggressive ike, or squirtle can't use his incredible mobility to avoid something and then punish, or charizard can't grab/flamethrower/rock smash/tilt/whatever. fatigue's biggest effect?
it's horrible. but assuming the pokemon don't go to sleep, all it REALLY means is that a fatigued pokemon can play exactly the same way as if they weren't tired, and when the pokemon lands a move that would ko when fresh but not fatigued, they switch to the next fresh pokemon. it simply forces a switch if the pt has trouble killing while fatigued. that's IT. zard's still pretty **** strong even in fatigue, squirtle's usmash still kills average characters at 120%, squirt's dthrow gives plenty of time to switch at ~110%, and ivy's bthrow/uthrow (depending on whether the opponent is aerially quicker horizontally or falling) do the same thing at about 130%.
fatigue is incredibly overrated and opponents playing to abuse the timer will probably put themselves in a worse position than before. squirtle and charizard are both fast (in different ways) while ivysaur has enough range and a projectile to punish people trying to hit him once and then run away.
fatigue's not a good thing but people who don't play trainer don't realize that it's not a big deal. most trainers are able to completely avoid the fatigue anyway. use a kill move a little early and switch if the pt is really worried about it. it's the same thing.
and ike is definitely one of the worst characters for trying to 'gay' trainer's stamina out. lol.
whats with this punishing bullet seed with Fsmash not a big deal? It means that if Ivy is above like 40% and a bullet seeds gets shielded you can kiss your *** good bye. Not even charizard can kill as early as Ike's Fsmash. Since the move is so slow it might be possible to charge Fsmash a bit to kill even earlier. Being punished by Ike's Fsmash is not the same as being punished by samus or wolf. Only ones that could compare are Snake's and DDD's.
Not sure how much fatigue lowers knock back but I think that a fatigued squirtle won't kill Ike at 180% with Dthrow. Since you can survive Squirtles Dthrow by DIing up then Ike can fast fall back in time to kill ivy with a Ftilt or eruption just to add some extra knock back.
Ivy might have a better chance Throwing him towards the edge as Ike doesn't move very fast trough the air but for squirtle you might as well kill your self to change pokemon that way you get to use ivy.
Also lol @ pokemon falling asleep I didn't know that happened. If it does well it just means your dead.
Since PT doesn't have a good approach Ike actually won't have much trouble gaying PT's stamina. Like I said before Ike's defensive game is much better than his offense.
bair, ftilt, dtilt, jab. all four are faster than ftilt.
and up close, nair is very effective and leads into utilt or bullet seed.
is ike REALLY going to be using ftilt to space? that move is basically an average smash attack and about as safe as one.
I don't think Ivy's jab is safe on shield. It looks to me like you could drop your shield take 7% damage SDI out of it and hit him afterwards because IIRC it takes a while to end. (this is just theory crafting though don't know if it works.)
Another thing that doesn't look safe on shield would be Ivy's Ftilt. Ivy steps forward and it doesn't look like that thing has much range.
Ike isn't going to be using Fair to punish fast moves. Ike will probably use his own Bair to punish Ivy's. The move actually kills 20% lower than Fair and it has a worse trajectory for ivy to recover from which could lead to a very easy kill.
how are they "badly" outranged? this isn't ivysaur's utilt we are talking about here lol. dtilt and jab are both disjointed. fair v bair argument is pretty even, but only if they come out really close to the same time. bair comes out quite sooner than the fair and has noticeably less cooldown, so ike cannot fair ivy to punish a bair. ivy, however, can use bair to punish ike fair if ivy airdodges or something.
as for fair, ivy can shield/dodge, and just walk a little bit into that lil comfort zone. ike cannot jab or he'll miss, ftilt is not fast and since ivy is walking, it'll be able to shield on reaction. once ivy is in that comfort zone, it can use a tilt or jab to pressure ike. and razor leaf before slowly approaching can make things a little easier.
nair shieldpokes fairly well, and can angle it to land behind you, where a utilt or bullet seed can come out immediately after ivy lands. there will be situations where both characters are pretty much overlapping for one reason or another. naturally ivysaur is going to space normally but my point was that if it finds itself in that kind of situation, ivysaur has some good options. ivysaur should not intentionally try to get right inside, it's a bit too risky. unless ike is vulnerable somehow.
range isn't everything dude. it's why squirtle can totally dominate characters like ddd. range, particularly ike's fairly laggy range, isn't going to keep all intruders out of ike's face forever. all it takes is a perfect shield or a sidestep while in range for a counter attack.
your last little paragraph pretty much sums up why i think ivysaur has an advantage on ike. it's pretty easy for ivysaur to space into that range. if you want to rely on ftilt at max range, ivy can easily dodge/shield an ftilt, walk a step or two, and then ftilt/dtilt. or just dash grab. ftilt's range isn't going to reliably keep ivysaur out of its comfort zone, because ike can't spam it. thus, he has some vulnerable cooldown that ivy can take advantage of.
something else to mention is that ike's jab puts him right in range for a bullet seed. ivysaur shouldn't be using it to punish every single little jab because predictable bullet seed = bad, but even using and hitting with it just once is good enough to make a big difference in the match, for someone as heavy as ike. and ike is one of the easier characters in the game to land it on, due to his lack of mobility and lack of quick options.
Like I've said before Ivy or any PT can not shield or spot dodge and walk into a comfort zone to punish Fair with a razor leaf a jab a grab w/e. Plus Ike's second jab probably does have the same range as ivy's ftilt/dtilt/jab/grab. Ike could actually just combat walk into Ivy is the second jab where to miss but since Ivy is walking forward I doubt it will.
If all else fails he could always just walk alway.
Half of the things I'm replying to from here are just things about punish Fair when you clearly can't. So I won't bother going trough everyone.
true, but slow range < fast range, even if the range is slightly inferior. ivysaur has fast range.
Ivy's range isn't better than Ike's adding aerial mobility its actually easier to hit with Fair than Bair. The reason Ike's second best move is because it is a reliable way of building damage. Not to mention Ike has fast range with to with his Bair which probably has the same range that Ivy's does and it comes out on frame 7.
also true, but the initial hit comes out in less than 5 frames (no one knows the exact frame) and after punishing something like a jab or tilt, ike may not have enough time to react to it. bullet seed can be unexpected.
Ike being punished after a tilt or jab by bullet seed doesn't mean he won't be able to react. DI is done after the hit happens and when someone is hit it cancels out the lag of w/e move was going on. Plus Ivy won't be able to punish one of Ike's tilt with bullet seed it doesn't have enough range.
spot dodging does not have as much lag as ike's ftilt does. ivy's dtilt comes out on like...frame 4, and ftilt on about frame 8. ike can still be punished from it. naturally it'll be really difficult if ike perfectly spaced ftilt's tip, but ivysaur shouldn't be letting ike use it at max distance.
Spot dodging doesn't have as much lag as Ike's ftilt but you still won't be able to reach him. It has lag and then you have to walk up and add the start up lag of what ever move you want to use to hit Ike. All of this is bigger than Ike's Ftilt.
Also It's up to the Ike using his max range or not. How the hell is ivy going to stop this? soak ragnell in warm water hoping that it shrinks? Ivy isn't a fast character.
unfortunately i don't think any of the pt's have the equipment necessary. however, for estimates, a frame data thread in tactical states that ivy's fsmash comes out about frame 15 and ike's ftilt about 17. so ivy's appears to be slightly safer on startup.
No move is safe on start up they can all be out sped even by slower moves if they just start sooner (except for squirtles jab and those other 1 frame moves). A safe move is one that if it hits it can't be punished. Range, speed, shield stun, how far it pushes someone, and IASA frames all have to do with this not just how fast the move comes out.
Plus about 15 could be 17 it might not even be faster. I'm not sure you guys know what safe moves are once again.
