Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[infernovia]

Ike holds an advantage in this battle.

I don't know how squirtle does (I don't know about chain throw) but it sounds like 70/30. However, I doubt you will get a grab on him because its essentially like grabbing a melee fox due to his quick jab. But there is no doubt that you will lose a life to this on a consistent basis. Also, Ike has nice range that is hard for squirtle to beat, but its not impossible. Squirtle holds the advantage in close combat imo (maybe not with chaingrab), but he has trouble approaching.

Ivysaur, Ike does better. 60/40. If not, 70/30 due to gimpability.

Charizard. 60/40

 

[Rykoshet]

Gimpability and the ability to eruption roof ivysaur at like 80 means anything but at least a 65/35 is ridiculous.

 

[Ussi]

Im aware of that thread but I'll tell you why it isnt accurate. that thread is based off out of the box speeds that dont consider b moves or arieals affecting horizontal/vertical speed.

They have ROB as C class... that robot has one of the best arieal manuverabilty in the game.

ivysaurs uair can propel him downward at great speeds. and comes out quick. if you dont believe me see how fast a sh uair lands. Ivys slow manuverabilty in the air actually compliments his quick arieals. You can wall of pain up to 3 Bairs as an example.

well, aerial mobility has nothing to do with fall speed. So you just... failed..

Yes ROB's bair isn't included, but this is just a general list. Neither Ivysaur nor Ike have any means to make their horizontal mobility any better so whats wrong with using it. What you mentioned affected vertical mobility. How is this really gonna help with getting closer to Ike? Ike is out ranging bair with his fair with better mobility. Last I checked, bair did not propel downwards.

Now Ivysaur is rather floaty I know, but your mobility still sucks so how do you plan to even keep up with the person your hitting even if bair has crap knockback (and damage too.. 3 Bairs is like 10%)

Ike holds an advantage in this battle.

I don't know how squirtle does (I don't know about chain throw) but it sounds like 70/30. However, I doubt you will get a grab on him because its essentially like grabbing a melee fox due to his quick jab. But there is no doubt that you will lose a life to this on a consistent basis. Also, Ike has nice range that is hard for squirtle to beat, but its not impossible. Squirtle holds the advantage in close combat imo (maybe not with chaingrab), but he has trouble approaching.

Ivysaur, Ike does better. 60/40. If not, 70/30 due to gimpability.

Charizard. 60/40

You get a facepalm. For once i have no idea what this person is saying...

 

[Itburns]

well, aerial mobility has nothing to do with fall speed. So you just... failed..

Yes ROB's bair isn't included, but this is just a general list. Neither Ivysaur nor Ike have any means to make their horizontal mobility any better so whats wrong with using it. What you mentioned affected vertical mobility. How is this really gonna help with getting closer to Ike? Ike is out ranging bair with his fair with better mobility. Last I checked, bair did not propel downwards.

Now Ivysaur is rather floaty I know, but your mobility still sucks so how do you plan to even keep up with the person your hitting even if bair has crap knockback (and damage too.. 3 Bairs is like 10%)

uhh yes it does.. fallspeed is a major factor of arieal manuverability.

the benefit of bair having crappy knockback is its ability to chain and followup.


but this is getting nowhere .. ill make my prediction and leave it at that:

By default its always a 60:40 disadvantage to ivysaur because of his gimpability. but his effectiveness onstage with correct spacing his ability to rack up damamge and juggle the **** out of ike. Id Im going with a 55:45 in ikes favour.

 

[Ussi]

uhh yes it does.. fallspeed is a major factor of arieal manuverability.

the benefit of bair having crappy knockback is its ability to chain and followup.


but this is getting nowhere .. ill make my prediction and leave it at that:

By default its always a 60:40 disadvantage to ivysaur because of his gimpability. but his effectiveness onstage with correct spacing his ability to rack up damamge and juggle the **** out of ike. Id Im going with a 55:45 in ikes favour.

I should have said: My argument is concerning the horizontal aspect of aerial mobility.

fair enough with the numbers.

PT in general though is good at racking damage with bullet seed, rock smash, and Squirtle's mobility. They just have bad recovery and that timer issues. And while they rack damage, I'd say only Charizard has dependable kill moves. The rest have situational kill moves. So they die as fast as they kill in a sense.

 

[Itburns]

understandable...

since we both main characters that get no love and its automatically assumed as a "victory" against them its hard to argue points .

this is the pokemon trainer Im used to playing/seeing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-T7UIhxdOo

ivysaur starts around 4:00 if you want to see how an ivysaur should be played.

 

[Ussi]

I see, the video helped.

Bair WoP definally has not enough hitstun, so Ike can AD or Shield in time (There was a moment in the video Bowser got half way thru starting his fire breath)

Ivysaur's first hit in the Bullet is DI able so you can avoid the the rest of Bullet seed if Ike DIs towards Ivy when getting hit by it (as Ike will be DIing with the momentum of the first hit of bullet seed)

Ivysaur appears to not leave the ground when doing a uair right away from a jump o_o...

Going by the video, vine whip will score most kills for Ivysaur. its fairly strong when sweet spotted, however, it's not impossible to avoid with an AD or counter. still Vine whip set ups are the way to go.

But somethings makes me think, what if Ike decides to run the stamina timer of PT by running away and focusing on PSing Razor leaf. Then what would Ivy do?


Off topic: I think Charizard would **** if he was his own character

 

[Itburns]

bair wop is meant more for spacing and set ups.. not to consistantly juggle... it does juggle at certain percentages... but its main goal is to set up other moves.

thats true what you say about ding bullet seeds 1st hit.. but thats not always gonna happen, even if you do it will act as a reset seince its safe enough you wont be able to punish.

Im glad you see what I mean when I say uair helps ivysaurs air manuverability.

vinewhip set ups get very predictable if used often but you can always wait for the dodge or counter and punish with an uiar to mix it up.

The whole stamina issue is annoying... I mean you can just ledge camp if you wanted. BUT pokemon trainer could always runaway down+b... which is fasster than people give credit for.

Zard owns as a character youtube Santi's charizard against dojos MK... seksi pokemon.

 

[Ussi]

bair wop is meant more for spacing and set ups.. not to consistantly juggle... it does juggle at certain percentages... but its main goal is to set up other moves.

thats true what you say about ding bullet seeds 1st hit.. but thats not always gonna happen, even if you do it will act as a reset seince its safe enough you wont be able to punish.

Im glad you see what I mean when I say uair helps ivysaurs air manuverability.

vinewhip set ups get very predictable if used often but you can always wait for the dodge or counter and punish with an uiar to mix it up.

The whole stamina issue is annoying... I mean you can just ledge camp if you wanted. BUT pokemon trainer could always runaway down+b... which is fasster than people give credit for.

Zard owns as a character youtube Santi's charizard against dojos MK... seksi pokemon.

fair enough about Bair

true too about Bullet seed. At least we save ourselves 30% though.

(skips to stamina)

And since Ivysaur > Charizard is the fastest transformation, harder to punish (Since we're talking about Ivy)

Whenever a PT does down B though I tend to charge QD if I'm far away. (Which kills decently when fully charged too)

Ike isn't good at ledge camping besides ledge drop > aether/uair. I meant more avoiding in general.

 

[MysticKenji]

The only stage Ike can effectively ledgecamp on is Norfair really...which gives you benefits too so I doubt either side would pick it..

 

[YagamiLight]

The only stage Ike can effectively ledgecamp on is Norfair really...which gives you benefits too so I doubt either side would pick it..

(and Pirate Ship)

 

[G-Beast]

Lucario's Fsmash outranges your fair, btw.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Edit: also i don't understand how many of you seem to think that speed doesn't matter, this thread is full of "i main ike so i predict you, speed sux." A) player skill has nothing to do with character matchups and B) ike players are not inherently smarter than everyone else. Outranging an attack by a little bit and having 20 frames more start up time =/= ike wins.

20 frames more start up time? I can't believe ivy's bair comes out at frame -2 that is awesome.

We have a very good frame thread you should check it out before talking about Ike's slow moves. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

i've yet to see a video for ike's grab releases, i'd like to see one!

Charizard can ftilt/fsmash/rock smash/flamethrower ike, with good timing, out of aether if he doesn't perfect sweetspot the ledge lol. it's not pretty. short hop flamethrower is really really annoying for ike and there isn't much ike can do to counter it when properly spaced.

razor leaf can both push ike to approach and serve as a very effective approaching tool for ivy. ivysaur has an overall spacing advantage on ike because ike's only real "GET AWAY FROM ME" attack is jab. ivysaur has quite a few attacks that outrange it.

squirtle can punish a looooooooot of things ike does. it's pretty bothersome if ike gets an attack shielded or something. ike has a grab release. i've yet to see this in action though.

Onxy said that it works and you guys said o we already knew when cambreil went to tell you about it in your PT ***** Ike thread.

For ivy out ranging Ike's jab: no one is claiming it has great range. How ever I don't think ivy has anything that can out speed it unless she also has a 1 frame jab or some other 2 frame move. Good luck reacting to a jab with anything but a shield though.

Squirtle being able to punish a lot of things ike can do is no big deal because all of these things are hardly used. Ike sticks to most of his save moves for building up damage and only uses his strong laggy ones for punishing other laggy moves. Plus squirtle can't kill Ike at all I swear I survived one of your D throws at like 180% and came back to kill ivy.

No I get that and its a big issue, but while jab -> grab that's the only thing that goes to grab, and even that is not a fact, this is one area which squirtle helps himself with the one frame jab. Not to mention if you use fair for approach anywhere near often the fair won't always kill THAT early, considering that ike should kill much earlier than most. jabjabgrab can be beaten out by the squirtle jab a good amount of the time. Not all the time, and yeah it'll do big issues i agree. I don't think squirtle has the advantage on this matchup, but its not particularly far off from neutral."grab release fair" does not end the game.

After a bunch of pummels and grabs I think Fair will be pretty fresh and even when used up it can still kill pretty early off the stage and its not like Squirtle has 5 jumps to make it back. Plus like ussi said Nair is a better approach against squirtle.

? um i really think you underestimate ivysaur.

everybody rolls... infact rolling is lucarios primary way of getting around, rolling consistently is for noobs. Not to mention when you are being spaced with razorleaf.. rolling sometimes is sometimes your best option, especially when you say that ike never attacks from above

lmao of course lucario rolls he is like open for 2 frames and it lasts about 10 /exaggeration? but it's still like the best roll in the game. Ike doesn't roll as much as lucario.

the only basis behind why that is the case is the ledgehogging. Ivysaur is obviously at a disadvantage off the stage but any competant PT has tricks to prevent people from ledgehogging.

What are these tricks all I've heard was using a razor leaf to hit who ever is on the ledge but you could just stand by the ledge and dodge it with a speed hug to lead into ivy's doom. Another PT main said this was the way to get around it so I'd like to hear another of these tricks.


*234587598430750375307532079853270453075438957438957857430 ivy' bairs before the beginning of time.*

 

[Itburns]

The comment on rolling wasnt meant to argue rollings credibility, I just stated that you can mindgame razorleaf to force someone to roll straight into an upsmash. No one besides lucario uses roll to get around its just on the basis of mindgames.

here are some of the options:

Options for getting rid of an on-edge opponent that have been mentioned:

Backwards razor leaf to bair
Forwards razor leaf at the opponent to vine whip on RL hit (to steal ledge)
Double jump into nair
Double jump into fair (from Adriel)
Wait them out and see if they roll off in time for ivy to tether the ledge

obviously DI plays a huge fatcor in this along with saving your second jump. But all of these are valid ways of getting back on the stage.

 

[The Derrit]

20 frames more start up time? I can't believe ivy's bair comes out at frame -2 that is awesome.

We have a very good frame thread you should check it out before talking about Ike's slow moves. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

I'll check out the thread. Also I never said what move I was talking about, but if i were to say 15 instead it still makes the point very clearly. Nitpicking is the best.

Not to mention no ivysaur is going to try and counter your fair (which is what would make sense framewise by that thread) with bair, instead they'll just run away. so outranging in that sense is rarely going to help you a ton.

Anyways this part of the argument is relatively moot for both sides so I vote we don't spend more time on this, no matter who "wins" we all lose by loss of time.

 

[Rykoshet]

it would be stupid to run away from fair, its ending lag is not long rnough for you to make a retreat and then punish accordingly for missing, especially if it's feinted as a full hop, which would make it auto cancel. Its landing lag isnt that long unless it's shielded.

 

[Guilhe]

razor leaf can both push ike to approach and serve as a very effective approaching tool for ivy. ivysaur has an overall spacing advantage on ike because ike's only real "GET AWAY FROM ME" attack is jab. ivysaur has quite a few attacks that outrange it.

I wish Ike’s counter were like Marth’s, so he would have more options when too close to the opponent… But it isn’t. Though only his jab is reliable when too close to the opponent, it’s still too good. Considering Ivysaur has a slow horizontal aerial movement and his aerials ending lag when not auto-cancelled, there’s no reason Ivysaur would go beyond SH height. And even if he went, we would punish him when he lands, which wouldn’t be very far.

someone asked for kill move set ups?
- any of the throws can be mindgamed into a vinewhip and if the person catches on mix it up with an uair.
- mindgame someone with razorleaf to roll into your upsmash.
- nair, utilt, uair/pivot vinewhip.

Am I invisible? Maybe I should create an account named “someone”. Anyway, that’s very interesting stuff. As I see it, Ivysaur can exploit platforms very well. Does all of this moves launch opponents upwards?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The comment on rolling wasnt meant to argue rollings credibility, I just stated that you can mindgame razorleaf to force someone to roll straight into an upsmash. No one besides lucario uses roll to get around its just on the basis of mindgames.

here are some of the options:



obviously DI plays a huge fatcor in this along with saving your second jump. But all of these are valid ways of getting back on the stage.

well you didn't do a very good job since you didn't even talk about Ike's roll to begin with.

That Bair won't actually work if you speed hug the right way, same with the forward razor leaf. Double jump aerials might be able to get out prioritized by a ledge hop Bair or Dair but I'm not to sure. The waiting part well it just back fires if they don't roll off in time.

I'll check out the thread. Also I never said what move I was talking about, but if i were to say 15 instead it still makes the point very clearly. Nitpicking is the best.

Not to mention no ivysaur is going to try and counter your fair (which is what would make sense framewise by that thread) with bair, instead they'll just run away. so outranging in that sense is rarely going to help you a ton.

Anyways this part of the argument is relatively moot for both sides so I vote we don't spend more time on this, no matter who "wins" we all lose by loss of time.

It comes out on frame 3? thats pretty kool but if you add the 6-12 frames of reaction time to Fair and the 8 frames to jump then it doesn't really make sense to try and counter it with Bair.

I'm not sure whats the problem with this it doesn't really waste time because you can discuss many points at once.

 

[Itburns]

well you didn't do a very good job since you didn't even talk about Ike's roll to begin with.

That Bair won't actually work if you speed hug the right way, same with the forward razor leaf. Double jump aerials might be able to get out prioritized by a ledge hop Bair or Dair but I'm not to sure. The waiting part well it just back fires if they don't roll off in time.

uhh dont take that rolling comment to seriously it was just an example.. no need to nitpick it.

obviously its not a prefect answer to recovery but mixing those up could mean the difference between getting back on the stage and not so dont say that it doesnt work when clearly it has and does.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

sorry but I like to nit pick and I'm going to continue to do it when ever I see something false.

I think you don't understand how match ups discussions actually work though. We are pretty much just discussing everything on paper in here. Those things don't actually work, doesn't matter if it has before if the Ike knows what to do ivy shouldn't make it back to the stage.

Ike could very well win a match by spaming forward smash just because it has worked doesn't mean it will continue to do so.

 

[The Derrit]

sorry but I like to nit pick and I'm going to continue to do it when ever I see something false.

I think you don't understand how match ups discussions actually work though. We are pretty much just discussing everything on paper in here. Those things don't actually work, doesn't matter if it has before if the Ike knows what to do ivy shouldn't make it back to the stage.

Ike could very well win a match by spaming forward smash just because it has worked doesn't mean it will continue to do so.

I think we have a pretty good sense of matchup threads. We can all come up with hypothetical situations about how this and that won't work, but the point is there isn't really such thing as absolutes because there's human error and the mental element of the game.

Example of how things like "if ivysaur does this i do this and win" are logical fallacies:


If ike does anything, i'll just powershield it and punish. 100:0 PT.


Now, is that realistic at all? No. Sure, it could be done. By your logic I should be able to say "If i know what ike is going to do then i just do this and win" but no one never will know exactly what their opponent will do every time, just like most people will not guard the edge perfectly every time.

EDIT: Also the point IS moot because I clearly said no ivysaur is going to try and counter fair with bair anyways, its much smarter to avoid it. So whether or not I could really doesn't matter.

 

[infernovia]

You get a facepalm. For once i have no idea what this person is saying...

Basically. Squirtle - Ike. 70/30 Ike's advantage. Mainly due to chain grab. Squirtle also has trouble with ike's range. Once in, Squirtle can do a lot of crap. Ike doesn't have a lot of options.

Ivysaur. 70/30 Ike's advantage cuz of gimps. I think its fairly even without it. Ike needs to be careful on approach. The razor leaf isn't even much of an issue if you get the timing down (I am talking about when you are trying to gimp ivy).

Charizard. 50/50 I find Ike's sword hard to get around. <_< I suck though. Its pretty close to neutral. But I still have trouble approaching him. I find flamethrower too DIable to be of much use. Charizard has a lot of edge shenanigans though. Watch out, Charizard can gimp you in 30% if you aren't carefully weighing your options.

 

[The Derrit]

Basically. Squirtle - Ike. 70/30 Ike's advantage. Mainly due to chain grab. Squirtle also has trouble with ike's range. Once in, Squirtle can do a lot of crap. YET Ike doesn't have a lot of options. ???

I don't understand what this person is saying either.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think we have a pretty good sense of matchup threads. We can all come up with hypothetical situations about how this and that won't work, but the point is there isn't really such thing as absolutes because there's human error and the mental element of the game.

Example of how things like "if ivysaur does this i do this and win" are logical fallacies:


If ike does anything, i'll just powershield it and punish. 100:0 PT.


Now, is that realistic at all? No. Sure, it could be done. By your logic I should be able to say "If i know what ike is going to do then i just do this and win" but no one never will know exactly what their opponent will do every time, just like most people will not guard the edge perfectly every time.

EDIT: Also the point IS moot because I clearly said no ivysaur is going to try and counter fair with bair anyways, its much smarter to avoid it. So whether or not I could really doesn't matter.

Well from that last post it sounded a little bit like you didn't but ok.

I don't really think there is anything wrong with my logic. If ____ does this and ___ does this they should win. Of course it's an if and it won't always be done as an answer to what ever move like its supposed to.

yes you should be able to do that it just makes sense. I know that people won't always know what their opponent will do but when they do there should be a way to punish that action.

I was pretty much just saying that ivy really doesn't have a safe way to get back to the stage. Yes there are tricks to help you but there are also answers to those tricks.

edit: Don't listen to that guy he doesn't know what hes talking about. I think only his squirtle number might be right but for other reasons besides those.

 

[infernovia]

I don't understand what this person is saying either.

All I am saying is that Ike's options are a bit limited once squirtle is in. The problem is that you need to get in there in the first place. Didn't think that was complicated.

Again, my biggest reason for giving this matchup a 70/30 is that Ike has a chaingrab. Without it, its way closer. I feel squirtle is slightly disadvantaged either way though.


Edit: Ok, where would you put ivy/zard? I always feel disadvantaged with Ivy off the stage and I have seen enough people do perfect invincibility on the razor leaf to stop my recovery to know that ivy is almost guaranteed death if off the stage. Ivy doesn't do that bad on the stage though.

 

[Bestiarius]

Colaya,

OK, I'll admit to overstating Squirtle's effectiveness against Ike. I think the matchup is slightly in Squirtle's favor, about 55:45. But Ike is not completely helpless. On the other hand, Squirtle is not as easy to kill as you seem to think he is. If he is, you haven't played a really good Squirtle. Still, I think the matchup is really close.

I still think Ivysaur has a great advantage over Ike. And if someone is noobish enough to sit there doing Bullet Seed when Ike is standing right next to them and not in the stream, and if they just keep sitting there streaming away, then I would kinda agree with you. they deserve to get a front smash to the face.

I do agree with a point thederrit made. NOBODY is going to sit ten feet away from Ike and just use Flamethrower. I think that Charizard would have the advantage in this matchup because of his slight projectile with Flamethrower and a well-timed Rock Smash.

Finally, thederrit, sorry for making YOU look bad considering that I'm the fellow PT main that made a few overzealous comments .

Btw, Colaya, I don't think Ike mains try to dodge using Aether's super armor frames. The thought just popped into my head and so I decided to slightly address that "what-if."

 

[Ussi]

every PT character does good on stage and gets gimped lol (generally). It goes along with the silly timer. Ivy isn't horrid againt Ike. ~_~ Ivy can put up a good even fight.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well, things are going a -bit- better than I expected. Buuuut, the sillyness is still there.

At least no one is saying 65:35 Squirtile because he can water gun Ike.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you think everything is going to be a flame war hero. Things are only flames wars if I decided they are going to be flame wars.

edit: looking back I think it might be true lol I start or continue everyone for days.

 

[Bestiarius]

Squirtle's Water Gun can do many things, but not make a matchup 65:35 in his favor :D.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Colaya,

OK, I'll admit to overstating Squirtle's effectiveness against Ike. I think the matchup is slightly in Squirtle's favor, about 55:45. But Ike is not completely helpless. On the other hand, Squirtle is not as easy to kill as you seem to think he is. If he is, you haven't played a really good Squirtle. Still, I think the matchup is really close.

I still think Ivysaur has a great advantage over Ike. And if someone is noobish enough to sit there doing Bullet Seed when Ike is standing right next to them and not in the stream, and if they just keep sitting there streaming away, then I would kinda agree with you. they deserve to get a front smash to the face.

I do agree with a point thederrit made. NOBODY is going to sit ten feet away from Ike and just use Flamethrower. I think that Charizard would have the advantage in this matchup because of his slight projectile with Flamethrower and a well-timed Rock Smash.

Finally, thederrit, sorry for making YOU look bad considering that I'm the fellow PT main that made a few overzealous comments .

Btw, Colaya, I don't think Ike mains try to dodge using Aether's super armor frames. The thought just popped into my head and so I decided to slightly address that "what-if."

I actually believe Ike has a solid advantage against squirtle. The PT boards have said that squirtle has trouble against characters with range and disjointed hitboxes which is like the definition of Ike. Not only that but the Ike boards found out about the chain grab that leads to a walk off Fair. This is Ike we are talking about it will most likely kill squirtle at like 60% off stage. Especially since squirtles recovery is far from stellar or good at all.

Colya or was it ussi? went and tested if a bullet seed can be punished by Fsmash and it can they I'm 99.99999999992% sure that they wheren't just holding B and pushing the C stick. I don't think ivy has a great advantage over Ike either it seems more like a neutral at most for ivy to me.

Charizards rock smash can be out ranged and I don't believe flame thrower is that big of a deal with SDI you can get out of it pretty fast. Charizard doesn't have much in this match he doesn't over power us he doesn't out weight us by much and he isn't faster than us. Seems very even to me and I don't know why anyone would push for the advantage except for that really dumb idea of a projectile completely devastating Ike.

 

[HeroMystic]

you think everything is going to be a flame war hero. Things are only flames wars if I decided they are going to be flame wars.

edit: looking back I think it might be true lol I start or continue everyone for days.

Yes I do. Past experiences have led me to prepare for them.

Although... most of them are indeed because of you. >_>

 

[•Col•]

Colaya,

OK, I'll admit to overstating Squirtle's effectiveness against Ike. I think the matchup is slightly in Squirtle's favor, about 55:45. But Ike is not completely helpless. On the other hand, Squirtle is not as easy to kill as you seem to think he is. If he is, you haven't played a really good Squirtle. Still, I think the matchup is really close.

I still think Ivysaur has a great advantage over Ike. And if someone is noobish enough to sit there doing Bullet Seed when Ike is standing right next to them and not in the stream, and if they just keep sitting there streaming away, then I would kinda agree with you. they deserve to get a front smash to the face.

I do agree with a point thederrit made. NOBODY is going to sit ten feet away from Ike and just use Flamethrower. I think that Charizard would have the advantage in this matchup because of his slight projectile with Flamethrower and a well-timed Rock Smash.

Finally, thederrit, sorry for making YOU look bad considering that I'm the fellow PT main that made a few overzealous comments .

Btw, Colaya, I don't think Ike mains try to dodge using Aether's super armor frames. The thought just popped into my head and so I decided to slightly address that "what-if."

Not saying it was super easy for Ike, but... Ike has a large disjointed hitbox twice the height of Squirtle. <_< lol. And last I checked, Squirtle was a light character, and Ike was one of the strongest. Plus a GUARANTEED fair offstage will help with killing. xD Also, just a thought I had: How can Squirtle deal with Ike spaced fairs? o-o

For Ivysaur, you don't have to sit there and hold it. If Ike shields or spotdodges the start of the move that pops you up into hth air, you can fsmash Ivysaur before she is able to shield or jump or w/e.

Now Charizard... "Flamethrower can rack up good damage as Ike has no projectile to get past it. " Wtf? You said that Charizard is far enough away that you can use a projectile, I assume you're far enough away to not get hit by flamethrower, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use a projectile since you're in the fire. If you're gonna be that far away, you must be able to charge up Quickdraw without being hit. And please, stop saying flamethrower is a gives Charizard the advantage... Ike doesn't even trouble with most projectiles, and flamethrower is like... The LEAST troublesome.


And wow. Why did you even say that ". . . PT severely ***** Ike." You must think Ivysaur has a 10-0 advantage over Ike then. Since you also said "I'd say pray that your opponent uses Charizard the most, sice I think Ike's best shot is against him." Since you said that Squirtle 55-45 over Ike, and that Charizard is the easiest to deal with, that's the only way this could be a **** matchup.

Unless, you're contradicting yourself, which certainly seems like it right now. Because I don't know how Charizard can have the advantage, and also be the easiest matchup for Ike, when Squirtle is already 55-45. That would mean that Charizard would be like, 50-50, which isn't an advantage either way.

Of course, contradiction with your last post seems to be riddled throughout this post from your last. I hate when people contradict themselves. It's one of my pet peeves. D: Please, don't do it again.

 

[Itburns]

sorry but I like to nit pick and I'm going to continue to do it when ever I see something false.

I think you don't understand how match ups discussions actually work though. We are pretty much just discussing everything on paper in here. Those things don't actually work, doesn't matter if it has before if the Ike knows what to do ivy shouldn't make it back to the stage.

Ike could very well win a match by spaming forward smash just because it has worked doesn't mean it will continue to do so.

im very aware of how match up discussons work, everything in the long run is just theories and situational information. If you want an accurate conclusion, the only thing that will really solve it is if everyone plays everyone offiline. Besides that everything is pretty much on paper like you said and it turns into a d*ck swinging contest between the 2 characters as people argue whos d*ick is larger.

what I try to accomplish is inform people about techniques that they didnt know before that they should know in order to compare correctly... take for example my explanation to ussi.

all i see from your posts are rock paper scissor arguements that dont tell me anything I dont already know.

 

[YagamiLight]

and it turns into a d*ck swinging contest between the 2 characters as people argue whos d*ick is larger.

I'd argue that that certainly isn't the case, considering Ike has a giant 5 foot long ***** shaped sword and he still isn't top tier.

 

[The Derrit]

Now Charizard... "Flamethrower can rack up good damage as Ike has no projectile to get past it. " Wtf? You said that Charizard is far enough away that you can use a projectile, I assume you're far enough away to not get hit by flamethrower, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use a projectile since you're in the fire. ????? Then why use flamethrower? This makes no sense at all. If you're gonna be that far away, you must be able to charge up Quickdraw without being hit. And please, stop saying flamethrower is a gives Charizard the advantage... Ike doesn't even trouble with most projectiles, and flamethrower is like... The LEAST troublesome.
Though that could be due to someone else's bad post. Regardless, makes no sense.

Flamethrower isn't meant to be a long range attack, but its longer ranged than anything ike has and is disjointed. Ike has some siginificant problems with flamethrower, I mean i can't even think of a way to say that isn't true. If you get caught even mid-flame you're taking at least 20 damage, 15 absolute minimum, and once you get out you're not going to have a good way to punish the cooldown cause the flame lasts during the cooldown.

 

[Brinzy]

Arturito, why is it whenever I see you talking in match-up discussions, you're too busy trying to talk about everyone else's intelligence when you're nothing special?

Anyway, Coyala, Ike spacing fair is part of his defensive game... but it's not like you can't deal with it. Squirtle can jump over Ike and dair or he can jump at Ike with another aerial. The downtime between a fair and Ike putting his shield up isn't too long, but it's long enough for Squirtle to get in and hit. Retreating fair sounds more problematic... though if I were dealing with Ike's fair for the most part, I'd send him towards the edge with Water Gun to limit him a little and to have a better chance at killing him off. You also don't want fair to be predicted and then shielded. There's more than enough time during fair's start-up and actual swing for Squirtle to get closer to Ike, shield the thing, and then grab with his deceptively huge range.

Ike can Fsmash a missed Bullet Seed like that...? Reliably? Could've fooled me. He's not going to get it off of a spotdodge because of how much downtime he still has. I can't even see him getting it off of a powershield, because I think it takes 7 frames to drop the shield and then... however much longer to Fsmash. You're supposed to just press B and see if it hits or not. If it hits, push it again and hold it. If not, do something else. Anyway, jab is more reliable than Fsmash.

lol @ Flamethrower being the least troublesome. Racks up damage very quickly, has great range and can be angled, edgeguards very effectively, and helps against approaches. I'm not gonna say that it's a gamebreaking move... but just because people go, "Well Ike has to deal with projectiles all the time, so it doesn't matter" doesn't mean that Flamethrower is worthless. I mean, come on, Flamethrower being a worse projectile than Water Gun?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Arturito, why is it whenever I see you talking in match-up discussions, you're too busy trying to talk about everyone else's intelligence when you're nothing special?

Anyway, Coyala, Ike spacing fair is part of his defensive game... but it's not like you can't deal with it. Squirtle can jump over Ike and dair or he can jump at Ike with another aerial. The downtime between a fair and Ike putting his shield up isn't too long, but it's long enough for Squirtle to get in and hit. Retreating fair sounds more problematic... though if I were dealing with Ike's fair for the most part, I'd send him towards the edge with Water Gun to limit him a little and to have a better chance at killing him off. You also don't want fair to be predicted and then shielded. There's more than enough time during fair's start-up and actual swing for Squirtle to get closer to Ike, shield the thing, and then grab with his deceptively huge range.

Ike can Fsmash a missed Bullet Seed like that...? Reliably? Could've fooled me. He's not going to get it off of a spotdodge because of how much downtime he still has. I can't even see him getting it off of a powershield, because I think it takes 7 frames to drop the shield and then... however much longer to Fsmash. You're supposed to just press B and see if it hits or not. If it hits, push it again and hold it. If not, do something else. Anyway, jab is more reliable than Fsmash.

lol @ Flamethrower being the least troublesome. Racks up damage very quickly, has great range and can be angled, edgeguards very effectively, and helps against approaches. I'm not gonna say that it's a gamebreaking move... but just because people go, "Well Ike has to deal with projectiles all the time, so it doesn't matter" doesn't mean that Flamethrower is worthless. I mean, come on, Flamethrower being a worse projectile than Water Gun?

I don't remember mention anyones intelligence just that they didn't know how match up discussions work which that don't say it doesn't work thing was a pretty big part of it. Go ahead and call me stupid if you want though I don't care.

Ike actually won't be approaching with Fairs in this match up it's already been mentioned. Fairs start up isn't all that huge too its only 18 frames. And a retreating Fair is save on shield when spaced correctly.

It's already been said that Fsmash is fast enough to hit a dodged bullet seed you just going I don't think it is doesn't disprove something. Also it takes 0 Frames to drop a PS IIRC because the shield doesn't even come out if done right. Computers do this pretty often but humans always hold the shield button. Fsmash is just as reliable in this case since they can both hit ivy.

g2g I'll answer the rest later.

 

[•Col•]

Thederrit: I know it's not supposed to be a long range attack. He was saying that since Ike didn't have a projectile to deal with it, I assumed that you must be far enough away that you're not in the flame, so that you'd be able to USE the projectile. Beastiarius is the one who said it, not me. D:


Successor of Raphael: I'm pretty sure Ike's fair is safe if shielded (if spaced correctly of course) against Squirtle; I could be wrong though. The IASA frames on the landing lag of fair help with that. xD And I didn't think Ike's fair was going to totally **** Squirtle or something, I just couldn't think of a way for him to get around it.

And yeah, it's VERY easy fsmash a missed bullet seed. After you shield the first hit, you could probably wait almost half a second before using the fsmash. It was even surprising to me how much time you had to fsmash. And as for powershielded one, wouldn't that push Ivysaur away a little? It might be a little harder to land a fsmash in time then, but there's always ftilt. xP And for the spotdodge... I'm not sure. It probably mostly depends on when you started it, but you should be able to get an ftilt out at the very least. I would test these, but... It's hard to do when it's just by myself.

And finally... Flamethrower is horrible.... As a projectile. xD As a damage racker, it's pretty good. I didn't mean it was worthless.


All this talk about PT and playing around with him last night makes me want to start playing him again. D: I mained him for like a week a few months ago, but I felt like I just couldn't do well with him... Maybe I should try him again, I dunno...

 

[Tenki]

I can't even see him getting it off of a powershield, because I think it takes 7 frames to drop the shield

I was under the impression that Pshields had no shield drop lag D: