Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Magik0722]

Well i havent talked anything out yet with the RGV crew, but ill ask them if they want to go.

 

[YagamiLight]

Actually charizard can maintain his smallest flamethrower flame forever. I think if you angle it correctly it might still hit ike as well. I seem to remember something akin to that happening when I got in a flamethrower vs quickdraw standoff a while back.

Tis all a bit hazy though

I went ahead and tested it with all three levels of angling (Unless Charizard has more, forgive my ignorance) and Charizard at minimum flame:

Ike just cuts through without taking damage every time.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I really want to talk about water gun because at times I've heard lol water gun which apparently wins the match while I've been looking at it as just speed hug instead.

 

[infernovia]

PT sucks. 99/1 Ike's advantage.

No srsly.

 

[Itburns]

What specifically do yo uwant to discuss about watergun?

- An uncharged watergun does 12%/9% if fatigued
- When fully charged Squirtle will glow.
- After firing there are 4/5 streams of water that come out. The 1st one is the strongest and it gets noticably weaker after each stream hits.

If you are reffering to its gimpability towards Ike. It is best done when ike is charging QD onstage because a fully charged watergun can push ike off the stage from halfway on smashville.

 

[•Col•]

I could be wrong, but can't you just release the the Quickdraw to grab the ledge as soon as you get pushed off? Anyway, Ike isn't going to be using Quickdraw much at all anyway.

 

[Itburns]

well its based off of 2 things

1) how strong the stream is
2) the ike players reaction time

considering Ikes weight you need either pretty good timing or expect it coming to escape it. thats why squirtles should always have their watergun fully charged in ike matches.

also unless Ike sweetspots Aether you can use watergun to push him away from grabbing the edge. Now before someone says "a good ike will always sweetspot Aether" there are some situations where you wont so it may not be a perfect answer.. but its a solid answer none the less.

but as always its situational and if most effective when mindgamed.

 

[Toby.]

I went ahead and tested it with all three levels of angling (Unless Charizard has more, forgive my ignorance) and Charizard at minimum flame:

Ike just cuts through without taking damage every time.

I tested as well and got the same result 4 out of 5 times. The second time I tested it Ike was stopped by the flame, but I concluded that I probably didn't let the flame go down to its absolute minimum.

It's either that or you need a very specific angle. I think its safe to say that the QD wins in a standoff.

 

[Ussi]

Doesn't the flame last forever if you tap b? Or does it still go down?

lol...aether sweet spotting....hahahaha...... -sad-

 

[Toby.]

You hold b and it will gradually go down to in mimimum length. If you continue to hold b it'll last forever.

 

[Ussi]

You hold b and it will gradually go down to in mimimum length. If you continue to hold b it'll last forever.

What i meant was, when you tap B instead of holding B while the flamethrower is out, doesn't last forever?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Aether doesn't sweet spot it could be aimed under the stage a bit to avoid the water though if that was what you meant.

Another thing I've seen is aether out prioritizing water gun so the hits don't actually do anything but don't quote me on this not entirely sure.

 

[Ussi]

Aether doesn't sweet spot it could be aimed under the stage a bit to avoid the water though if that was what you meant.

Another thing I've seen is aether out prioritizing water gun so the hits don't actually do anything but don't quote me on this not entirely sure.

only on the way down. EDIT: It cancels water gun

The beginning of water gun should push Ike while going up. middle does insignificant amounts.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

everything grabs the ledge on the way down I wouldn't call that sweet spotting.

 

[Ussi]

I meant only on the way down, aether cancels out water gun

 

[Toby.]

What i meant was, when you tap B instead of holding B while the flamethrower is out, doesn't last forever?

And I was describing how flamethrower works. I was implying but should have said that tapping B doesn't do anything. It just makes Charizard stop and start the flame, which will gradually diminish anyway and leave him quite open.

 

[Guilhe]

Ivysaur: Since ike does not have a projectile, i find myself using razor leaf alot in order to make the ike approach me. If i predict a jump i like to UpB so he jumps into it for free damage. I use bair alot with ivysaur sicne it outranges most of ikes attacks unless he starts RARing some bairs himself, then it gets too risky for me. I use the nair to uptilt combo alot in order to get ike in the air, since it is hard for ike to approach ivysaur from the air since he has no reliable attacks to go to ivysuar with at that angle, the best bet would be a nair, which is easily stopped with most of ivysaurs attacks, namely Uair. The usualy why i get KOd by ike is a Ftilt followed by edgeguarding to tether hog. Learn how ivysaurs deal with tether hogging and counter that. Ivysaurs save their jump and use a razor leaf to hit the opponent off the ledge then immediately UpBs. To counter this, when he is falling at the same level horizonatally as the ledge go for the hug, this will make the razor leaf not damage you and be able to press L when you see the vinewhip comign at you.

Which angle is “that angle”? Anyway, your Bair is outranged by our Fair as well, which is a very reliable attack and safer on shield than Nair. And Uair shouldn’t be hitting through Ike’s Nair when correctly spaced. Nevertheless, there’s very interesting stuff in your post! I’ll remember Ivysaur’s UpB on stage and recovering strategy… What about your kill moves, which are they? How would you make Ike fall for them?

I meant only on the way down, aether cancels out water gun

That’s not cool, for Squirtle I mean.

 

[Bestiarius]

I hate to rain on the p[arade, but as a PT main, I have found that PT severely ***** Ike. Squirtle's speed is simply too much for Ike to deal with. If Squirtle is used properly, Ike won't be able to hardly get a move in edgewise. Ivysaur can use Razor Leaf to force the projectile-less Ike to approach. Once Ike is close enough, Bullet Seed easily racks damage on him because he is too heavy to get out of the stream quickly. Charizard is a heavyweight who can go toe toe with Ike as far as power is concerned. Some of Charizard's tilts, namely, his down tilt and up tilt, are very fast and powerful enough to do some quick damage. Flamethrower can rack up good damage as Ike has no projectile to get past it. And, then, of course, Rock Smash is just such a powerful move. Ike's best shot against PT is to try and get close enough and pull out Counter and his amazing Jab combo. The Super Armor on Aether may let you get away with it once or twice, but use it with caustion as its lag could be severely punished by any one of the Pokemon. I'd say pray that your opponent uses Charizard the most, sice I think Ike's best shot is against him. I love Ike, but this matchup is terrible for him.

 

[•Col•]

I hate to rain on the p[arade, but as a PT main, I have found that PT severely ***** Ike. Squirtle's speed is simply too much for Ike to deal with. If Squirtle is used properly, Ike won't be able to hardly get a move in edgewise. Ivysaur can use Razor Leaf to force the projectile-less Ike to approach. Once Ike is close enough, Bullet Seed easily racks damage on him because he is too heavy to get out of the stream quickly. Charizard is a heavyweight who can go toe toe with Ike as far as power is concerned. Some of Charizard's tilts, namely, his down tilt and up tilt, are very fast and powerful enough to do some quick damage. Flamethrower can rack up good damage as Ike has no projectile to get past it. And, then, of course, Rock Smash is just such a powerful move. Ike's best shot against PT is to try and get close enough and pull out Counter and his amazing Jab combo. The Super Armor on Aether may let you get away with it once or twice, but use it with caustion as its lag could be severely punished by any one of the Pokemon. I'd say pray that your opponent uses Charizard the most, sice I think Ike's best shot is against him. I love Ike, but this matchup is terrible for him.

Lol. That's all I have to say.

EDIT: I lied. D:

Ike vs. Squirtle: Grab release chaingrab to guaranteed fair.

Ike vs. Ivysaur: Razor leaf is slow, linear, and easily powershielded. Bullet seed can put some damage onto Ike... But if the attack misses, say hello to Ike's fsmash for me. :D

Ike vs. Charizard: Flamthrower won't work against Ike. He can charge Quickdraw until the flamethrowere is diminished. (We literally were just talking about this higher up on this page.......... >_> )


Btw, Counter won't work any better against PT than any other matchup.

And lol. You think Ike mains try to dodge attacks by using Aether's super armor frames.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I hate to rain on the p[arade, but as a PT main, I have found that PT severely ***** Ike. Squirtle's speed is simply too much for Ike to deal with. If Squirtle is used properly, Ike won't be able to hardly get a move in edgewise. Ivysaur can use Razor Leaf to force the projectile-less Ike to approach. Once Ike is close enough, Bullet Seed easily racks damage on him because he is too heavy to get out of the stream quickly. Charizard is a heavyweight who can go toe toe with Ike as far as power is concerned. Some of Charizard's tilts, namely, his down tilt and up tilt, are very fast and powerful enough to do some quick damage. Flamethrower can rack up good damage as Ike has no projectile to get past it. And, then, of course, Rock Smash is just such a powerful move. Ike's best shot against PT is to try and get close enough and pull out Counter and his amazing Jab combo. The Super Armor on Aether may let you get away with it once or twice, but use it with caustion as its lag could be severely punished by any one of the Pokemon. I'd say pray that your opponent uses Charizard the most, sice I think Ike's best shot is against him. I love Ike, but this matchup is terrible for him.

Mmmmhmmm.....you obviously don't know the least thing about this.

 

[YagamiLight]

I don't think words can summarize what I think of that statement.

That does the job, though.

 

[Itburns]

Ike vs. Ivysaur: Razor leaf is slow, linear, and easily powershielded. Bullet seed can put some damage onto Ike... But if the attack misses, say hello to Ike's fsmash for me. :D

that whole statement is incorrect:

Razorleaf is neither linear nor slow, it will curve both upwards and downwards at random. Its speed can also be controlled by either a tilt or a smash. The tilt goes half the distance and is slightly slower where the smash razorleaf goes half the distance of final destination.

also you exaggerate the ending lag of a bullet seed. if shielded ivysaur is open... but not Ike Fsmash open.

and someone mentioned ivysaurs bair to ikes fair. Fair outrangs but bair is fast and can be autocancelled into a dj arieal.

 

[Ussi]

People need to learn.... Ike's range makes up for his speed ~_~.... if Ikes can't keep with you... you're playing the wrong Ikes. There are like a few good Ikes here and there...

Projectiles don't bother us that much at all...

 

[Guilhe]

Projectiles don't bother us that much at all...

Speak for yourself.

also you exaggerate the ending lag of a bullet seed. if shielded ivysaur is open... but not Ike Fsmash open.

Ike’s Fsmash needs 29 frames to become active. Judging by this video, bullet seed has a full second duration, that’s a very nice window for punishment.

and someone mentioned ivysaurs bair to ikes fair. Fair outrangs but bair is fast and can be autocancelled into a dj arieal.

I’m sure it is! There’s no doubt that Ivysaur can combo better and attack faster, I’m just stating the Ivy’s Bair can be dealt with Ike’s conventional approach methods. Though I am unsure if Ivy’s Bair can combo well at maximum range. Ivysaur seems to have more and better options at a closer range, his Nair for example.

What about your kill moves, which are they? How would you make Ike fall for them?

Yes, I'm quoting myself. But that's because I really want to know.

 

[The Derrit]

I’m sure it is! There’s no doubt that Ivysaur can combo better and attack faster, I’m just stating the Ivy’s Bair can be dealt with Ike’s conventional approach methods. Though I am unsure if Ivy’s Bair can combo well at maximum range. Ivysaur seems to have more and better options at a closer range, his Nair for example.

Yes, it can pretty well. In fact its generally best to be at maximum range with bair, as the knockback isn't huge.

Also, kill moves and how they land.

Kill Moves: Fsmash, Usmash, Uair, Vine Whip, Bthrow to edgeguard

How to land them: Pretty much? Just wait for recovery lag and punish.
-Fsmash can come out faster than dash attack recovers and I know dash attack doesn't get used much, but its one of the faster attacks recovery wise. Any grounded move from ike that isn't a grab or jab combo has enough lag to eat an fsmash, which has pretty good range.
-Usmash doesn't happen much and doesn't really get counted on for much at least for me.
-Uair comes out relatively fast, if ike is dropping down and tries to dodge, wait for the lag to end and uair. it works especially well because it drops ivy down quickly, so its not easy to punish (and because the hitbox is enormous)
-Vine Whip is largely situational. Not really just one way its done.
-Bthrow to edgeguard is pretty simple, you just bthrow and edgeguard. Unrelated but I have a video on my wii of me beating out an aether with bair it's lol.

Edit: also i don't understand how many of you seem to think that speed doesn't matter, this thread is full of "i main ike so i predict you, speed sux." A) player skill has nothing to do with character matchups and B) ike players are not inherently smarter than everyone else. Outranging an attack by a little bit and having 20 frames more start up time =/= ike wins.

DOUBLE EDIT: perfect example here;

From Colaya:

Ike vs. Squirtle: Grab release chaingrab to guaranteed fair.

That happens with like everyone, and its certainly a big downer. But it does not win you the game. Someone please give me moves that can consistently punish a squirtle outside of jab combo.

Ike vs. Ivysaur: Razor leaf is slow, linear, and easily powershielded. Bullet seed can put some damage onto Ike... But if the attack misses, say hello to Ike's fsmash for me. :D

A) All of these statements on razor leaf are false
B) If bullet seed hits, you take like 20-50 damage. If fsmash hits, we take a massive knockback attack that might kill over a pretty low percent. You could say the same thing the other way around. If you miss an fsmash, say hello to whatever I want to hit you with.

Ike vs. Charizard: Flamthrower won't work against Ike. He can charge Quickdraw until the flamethrowere is diminished. (We literally were just talking about this higher up on this page.......... >_> )

What kind of ****** would use flamethrower without being in range to hit the opponent? No one sits there with flamethrower and says "ha i bet they'll walk into it" You flamethrower on your opponent, not away from them. Your point makes no sense.

 

[HeroMystic]

Speak for yourself.

I won't say projectiles don't bother us (I have to agree with Ussi though. I'm a powershield ***** against projectiles nowadays), but when you compare Ivy's razor leaf to, say... I dunno, Pit's arrows, then Ivy's razor leaf isn't really troublesome at all.

 

[Ussi]

That happens with like everyone, and its certainly a big downer. But it does not win you the game. Someone please give me moves that can consistently punish a squirtle outside of jab combo.

You fail to understand that its a grab release chain grab like Yoshi's then when offstage it leads to a fair. Which will kill since Squirtle since he's super light. Jab leads to grab so you will get punished by this.

 

[Steeler]

i've yet to see a video for ike's grab releases, i'd like to see one!

Charizard can ftilt/fsmash/rock smash/flamethrower ike, with good timing, out of aether if he doesn't perfect sweetspot the ledge lol. it's not pretty. short hop flamethrower is really really annoying for ike and there isn't much ike can do to counter it when properly spaced.

razor leaf can both push ike to approach and serve as a very effective approaching tool for ivy. ivysaur has an overall spacing advantage on ike because ike's only real "GET AWAY FROM ME" attack is jab. ivysaur has quite a few attacks that outrange it.

squirtle can punish a looooooooot of things ike does. it's pretty bothersome if ike gets an attack shielded or something. ike has a grab release. i've yet to see this in action though.

 

[The Derrit]

You fail to understand that its a grab release chain grab like Yoshi's then when offstage it leads to a fair. Which will kill since Squirtle since he's super light. Jab leads to grab so you will get punished by this.

No I get that and its a big issue, but while jab -> grab that's the only thing that goes to grab, and even that is not a fact, this is one area which squirtle helps himself with the one frame jab. Not to mention if you use fair for approach anywhere near often the fair won't always kill THAT early, considering that ike should kill much earlier than most. jabjabgrab can be beaten out by the squirtle jab a good amount of the time. Not all the time, and yeah it'll do big issues i agree. I don't think squirtle has the advantage on this matchup, but its not particularly far off from neutral."grab release fair" does not end the game.

 

[Ussi]

No I get that and its a big issue, but while jab -> grab that's the only thing that goes to grab, and even that is not a fact, this is one area which squirtle helps himself with the one frame jab. Not to mention if you use fair for approach anywhere near often the fair won't always kill THAT early, considering that ike should kill much earlier than most. jabjabgrab can be beaten out by the squirtle jab a good amount of the time. Not all the time, and yeah it'll do big issues i agree. I don't think squirtle has the advantage on this matchup, but its not particularly far off from neutral."grab release fair" does not end the game.

Against Squirtle, Nair does better than fair as an approach

 

[•Col•]

that whole statement is incorrect:

Razorleaf is neither linear nor slow, it will curve both upwards and downwards at random. Its speed can also be controlled by either a tilt or a smash. The tilt goes half the distance and is slightly slower where the smash razorleaf goes half the distance of final destination.

also you exaggerate the ending lag of a bullet seed. if shielded ivysaur is open... but not Ike Fsmash open.

When I said linear, I meant that it moved in a mostly straight line. It only curves at the very end of it. And when I said it was slow, I meant that it's easy to see coming, and you can see whenever Ivysaur is about to use it. I didn't exactly mean that the leaf itself is slow, because if you smash it forward, it really isn't. But yeah, it's easy to see coming, which is why it's easy to powershield. Please, let's not spend 15 pages arguing over something stupid like this, like the PT vs. Ike matchup thread. -_-

And as for bullet seed, most players tend to hold B after the pop up part. Only after do they realize "OH WAIT, CRAP, STOP USING BULLET SEED". xD And I'm pretty sure that you can fsmash Ivysaur if he uses bullet seed.

How to land them:

Edit: also i don't understand how many of you seem to think that speed doesn't matter, this thread is full of "i main ike so i predict you, speed sux." A) player skill has nothing to do with character matchups and B) ike players are not inherently smarter than everyone else. Outranging an attack by a little bit and having 20 frames more start up time =/= ike wins.

DOUBLE EDIT: perfect example here;

From Colaya:

Ike vs. Squirtle: Grab release chaingrab to guaranteed fair.

That happens with like everyone, and its certainly a big downer. But it does not win you the game. Someone please give me moves that can consistently punish a squirtle outside of jab combo.

Ike vs. Ivysaur: Razor leaf is slow, linear, and easily powershielded. Bullet seed can put some damage onto Ike... But if the attack misses, say hello to Ike's fsmash for me. :D

A) All of these statements on razor leaf are false
B) If bullet seed hits, you take like 20-50 damage. If fsmash hits, we take a massive knockback attack that might kill over a pretty low percent. You could say the same thing the other way around. If you miss an fsmash, say hello to whatever I want to hit you with.

Ike vs. Charizard: Flamthrower won't work against Ike. He can charge Quickdraw until the flamethrowere is diminished. (We literally were just talking about this higher up on this page.......... >_> )

What kind of ****** would use flamethrower without being in range to hit the opponent? No one sits there with flamethrower and says "ha i bet they'll walk into it" You flamethrower on your opponent, not away from them. Your point makes no sense.

And you. Don't you ****ing make an attack on me. I was merely countering everything that YOUR FELLOW PT MAIN stated.

He said that Ike won't even be able to do anything against Squirtle because Squirtle is too fast. In fact, Ike WON'T EVEN BE ABLE TO DO ANY ATTACK AT ALL, the way he's putting it. ". . . Ike won't be able to hardly get a move in edgewise"

I'll go back to previous statement: "hes so small and fast that u cant hit or grab or hit him fast enough b4 he hits u"

About Ike vs. Ivysaur, I explained what I meant about Razor leaf higher up in this post. About bullet seed, yes fsmash is strong. It will most likely be used as a punisher if Ivysaur uses Bullet seed and misses. Most Ike's won't be throwing out random fsmashes, so it really doesn't go the other way around. And btw, Ike's fsmash is more devastating that any of Ivysaur's moves... Although, her usmash does come pretty close. xD But I think Ike can actually shield her usmash if he wiffs an fsmash... o_O

And he said: "Flamethrower can rack up good damage as Ike has no projectile to get past it. " as if flamethrower was some super invincible wall that Ike can't get around because he doesn't have a projectile. That's why I said Quickdraw.

Everything I said in that post was countering something Beastiarius said in his. I wouldn't be saying a bunch of this stupid crap for no reason, and I wouldn't have even brought it up because I thought most of it was obvious.

Maybe you just didn't read to see how stupid his post was or something, I dunno. You must not have, because it sounded 10 times stupider anything I may have written in my last post. Whatevz.

EDIT: Lol, I'm calmed down now. Sorry, I got a little upset. D: This is why I hate debating/arguing with someone.

 

[Itburns]

When I said linear, I meant that it moved in a mostly straight line. It only curves at the very end of it. And when I said it was slow, I meant that it's easy to see coming, and you can see whenever Ivysaur is about to use it. I didn't exactly mean that the leaf itself is slow, because if you smash it forward, it really isn't. But yeah, it's easy to see coming, which is why it's easy to powershield. Please, let's not spend 15 pages arguing over something stupid like this, like the PT vs. Ike matchup thread. -_-

And as for bullet seed, most players tend to hold B after the pop up part. Only after do they realize "OH WAIT, CRAP, STOP USING BULLET SEED". xD And I'm pretty sure that you can fsmash Ivysaur if he uses bullet seed.

uhh I understand that you may have meant things other than what was stated but you cant down play a move that is essential to Ivysaurs spacing game. even if it easily powershileded you are not gonna powershield every one, sh razorleaf into razorleaf is actually faster than 2 standing razorleafs.

I tested out a shielded bulletseed vs fsmamsh and it doesnt work... infact you can shield and punish the fsmash with another bulletseed at close range.

I take ikes grab release into a fair about as serious as you guys take squirtles watergun gimps.... its there and its something to watch out for but its not gonna make or break the match up.

if bair is spaced out you can combo bairs, nairs and ftilts.
if bair is close you can autocancel bair into a bulletseed.

someone asked for kill move set ups?
- any of the throws can be mindgamed into a vinewhip and if the person catches on mix it up with an uair.
- mindgame someone with razorleaf to roll into your upsmash.
- nair, utilt, uair/pivot vinewhip.

 

[The Derrit]

And you. Don't you ****ing make an attack on me. I was merely countering everything that YOUR FELLOW PT MAIN stated.

EDIT: Lol, I'm calmed down now. Sorry, I got a little upset. D: This is why I hate debating/arguing with someone.

Haha s'all good. No offense taken and hopefully none given, i do not intend to offend. my "fellow pt main" made some poor points from what you've said. This is what debate's for, anyhow, it gets heated sometimes but this is how things get worked out

ike respect

 

[Ussi]

Rolling is for noobs.

Anyways, Ivysaur, regardless of her power, has a hard time killing. Ike's space game keeps him far away from Ivysaur at all times so he won't be usually in range for standard attacks, and only for Ivysaur's long range attacks. Funny thing is, Ivysaur's grab range is pretty short for a tether. It's shorter than Charizard's meaning, we can easily space a fair to not get grabbed.

Vine Whip is too obvious, Fsmash is too obvious, Usmash is too obvious, Uair is too obvious. Ivysaur's kill moves are easy to see coming (Like we're any different though in sterotypes, lol). Ike will never try to attack Ivysaur from above because we know Ivysaur's usmash and uair are ****, both being very very powerful. Ivysaur's best bet is to actually just damage Ike and switch to Charizard to kill. Otherwise Ike will be surviving till higher %s.

 

[Itburns]

? um i really think you underestimate ivysaur.

everybody rolls... infact rolling is lucarios primary way of getting around, rolling consistently is for noobs. Not to mention when you are being spaced with razorleaf.. rolling sometimes is sometimes your best option, especially when you say that ike never attacks from above

like you said... by stereotype its "easy to see coming" but that still doesnt mean its not gonna hit. Uair mixed with vinewhip are perfect examples of punishing people in the air and trust me Ivysaur has no problem putting ike in the air whether they like it or not..

Ivysaur does a great job killing ike especially because his arieal manuverability is just as bad as ivysaurs.

 

[SaltyKracka]

? um i really think you underestimate ivysaur.

everybody rolls... infact rolling is lucarios primary way of getting around, rolling consistently is for noobs. Not to mention when you are being spaced with razorleaf.. rolling sometimes is sometimes your best option, especially when you say that ike never attacks from above

like you said... by stereotype its "easy to see coming" but that still doesnt mean its not gonna hit. Uair mixed with vinewhip are perfect examples of punishing people in the air and trust me Ivysaur has no problem putting ike in the air whether they like it or not..

Ivysaur does a great job killing ike especially because his arieal manuverability is just as bad as ivysaurs.

But you know why Ike is much better at killing Ivysaur? It's called fair, ftilt, and ledgehogging.

 

[Itburns]

the only basis behind why that is the case is the ledgehogging. Ivysaur is obviously at a disadvantage off the stage but any competant PT has tricks to prevent people from ledgehogging.

ivysaur racks damage really easily with bulletseed and autocancellend nair follow ups.
AC nair, dj nair, uair does insane damage and it dumb easy to hit on ike.

onstage ivysaurs moves are faster and can be linked up alot better that ikes can.
not to mention with proper sapcing and punishment...

ivysaur will give you a much harder time than squirtle.

 

[Ussi]

? um i really think you underestimate ivysaur.

I probably need to play better Ivysaurs... if only I knew some offline.. All I can do is judge how a situation would handle from the wifi experience I have with PT. Forgive my ignorance.

everybody rolls... infact rolling is lucarios primary way of getting around, rolling consistently is for noobs. Not to mention when you are being spaced with razorleaf.. rolling sometimes is sometimes your best option, especially when you say that ike never attacks from above

Mis wording on my part. I apologize, Ike will usually not attack from above against Ivysaur, knowing Ivysaur has good options to attack when below Ike. And I said rolling is for noobs as in rolling too much. I know Lucario's roll is really really good and better than his dash. But last I checked, i'm some hair'd guy with no personality. And against razor leaf, I PS that easily.

like you said... by stereotype its "easy to see coming" but that still doesnt mean its not gonna hit. Uair mixed with vinewhip are perfect examples of punishing people in the air and trust me Ivysaur has no problem putting ike in the air whether they like it or not..

Since easy to see coming actually applies to both sides, either we both won't hit each other or we both will lol.. That was really just a pointless statement on my part.

But I still believe Ike has better kill moves that are harder to avoid, utilt and ftilt. Utilt can be followed up after a jab.

Ivysaur does a great job killing ike especially because his arieal manuverability is just as bad as ivysaurs.

This is false.

Ike has a much better aerial mobility than Ivysaur. Ivysaur has one of the WORST in the game. Ike has an average aerial mobility being the 20th out of 39(tied with TL). Ivysaur happens to be the 3th worst(tied with IC). So this easily allows our fair to not only have better mobility with it, but fair has more range than Ivy's bair in the first place, so Ike's fair will win the mid distance air battles.

Actually numbers Ike is 2.83 and Ivysaur is 2.32 (to understand better read the thread, URL is below)

Aerial Mobility Thread

 

[•Col•]

uhh I understand that you may have meant things other than what was stated but you cant down play a move that is essential to Ivysaurs spacing game. even if it easily powershileded you are not gonna powershield every one, sh razorleaf into razorleaf is actually faster than 2 standing razorleafs.

I tested out a shielded bulletseed vs fsmamsh and it doesnt work... infact you can shield and punish the fsmash with another bulletseed at close range.

I take ikes grab release into a fair about as serious as you guys take squirtles watergun gimps.... its there and its something to watch out for but its not gonna make or break the match up.

...Huh? o_o

That reminds me... After I posted, I went to check if Ike could fsmash Ivysaur if bullet seed missed.... And it worked everytime.... Maybe one of us is doing it wrong? o_O I'm pretty sure, since I tried for a quite a bit...

Also, I was wrong. Ivysaur can just barely hit Ike with usmash if he wiffs a fsmash... You have to be pretty close to do it though... xD It's probably better to just use Ivysaur's fsmash to punish it.

 

[Itburns]

Im aware of that thread but I'll tell you why it isnt accurate. that thread is based off out of the box speeds that dont consider b moves or arieals affecting horizontal/vertical speed.

They have ROB as C class... that robot has one of the best arieal manuverabilty in the game.

ivysaurs uair can propel him downward at great speeds. and comes out quick. if you dont believe me see how fast a sh uair lands. Ivys slow manuverabilty in the air actually compliments his quick arieals. You can wall of pain up to 3 Bairs as an example.