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Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

YagamiLight

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On-off-topic: So hows life going for ya Light? I'm sure you're a busy person, but I hope you can muster the time to do write-ups. I think we all know how the fight goes for Jiggz/Ike, and we're just waiting for you to mvoe us on onto the next character... perhaps... Anyway! Because it's going to eventually come... *cough cough teh Boozer for #24 cough cough*
I write a bit as I get the time. As I am a senior in high school, I sadly am busy doing random AP courses and college apps, urgh.

How does people do this Homebrew now? *Has TP and an SD card*
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Twilight_Hack

After you get this step done, tell me so I can help you further.

I might feel inclined to do the Lucas/Ike match-up since I'm stuck at home with nothing to do.
Many thanks.

EDIT: Problem with lawsuits is that it's really hard to get all the pirates, especially the obscure ones in China or Mexico or whatever. Add to that the legal fees, lawyers they need to hire, time, etc and it's probably just not worth it to them.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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You chances are you know someone with an SD card. You have a digital camera don't you? just grab that move everything to a folder on your computer and tadah you have an SD card.

edit: One of the hacks I put in here freezes my wii every time ivysaur dies though its gay.
 

Kinzer

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Light hijacked his own thread?

What the Hell is this kind of madness?

Am I in Sparta?
 

XACE-K

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I have no clue. All I know is that we really need to get back on track. So....

Any thoughts on who you want to talk about next Light?
 

Rykoshet

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No really, I quit.
55:45 Fox's favor, the biggest issue is that fox's approaches to actually land a killshot are fairly ****ed unless severely mindgamed. I've played rookie, yes, soul ark, generally the idea here is that defense wins, and no, fox having a gun doesn't mean you have to automatically approach this matchup. Again, keep your *** on the stage since ****ing up off of it will mean an easy shine spike, avoid that and the rest are kind of obvious (smashes and back air)
 

XACE-K

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We're doing Fox!? Noooooooo!!!! Now my stupid plan is ruined now that the StarFox squad is done.

-U-smash, D-smash and B-air are his best KO options on-stage. Off stage, it's the shine spike. Watch out for both.

-CP Lylat unless the Fox banned it.

-Like Ryko said, you don't have to approach just because you have a gun.

-Illusion and Firefox are easy to hit him out of. D-tilt, f-tilt, U-smash are some of your options but they vary on where he's recovering from.

I can't think of other info. XP I have the least knowledge against him out of all the spacies.
 

HeroMystic

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Fox is pretty freaken hard to keep out of range, and his ground game is pretty formidable.

I've only played a decent Fox, but this one is a neutral. Fox can easily shine-spike when you try to go below, so it's best to mix up your recovery with QD in this match.

Oh, and watch out for that U-Smash. No one likes the U-Smash.
 

Kinzer

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Fox's UTilt juggles Ike... ****ing Nintendo making him heavy and yet having no d*** combo breaker!

Anyway somebody explain to me how you won't be forced to approach Fox here, doesn't his laser go about the full length of Final D? What are you gonna do ledge-stall?

Beware the Dair to USmash.

his Fair can give him an extra boost (to get through!) to gain some vertical height after a jump.

He can stall with his reflector in the air, not worth it to try and charge a Smash attack.

His Up-B is actually the most useable spacie recovery out of them all... and yet is still easy to work with.

Don't stay in the air too long, or you will get UAir Star K.O.ed.

Lylat Cruise, and if you can't go there, Battlefield for neutrals, and for CPs, go... oh I dunno, Frigate Orpheon if you feel comfortable there?
 

XACE-K

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Fox's UTilt juggles Ike... ****ing Nintendo making him heavy and yet having no d*** combo breaker!
That's Sakurai's fault.

Anyway somebody explain to me how you won't be forced to approach Fox here, doesn't his laser go about the full length of Final D? What are you gonna do ledge-stall?
there?
Fox's lasers don't make you flinch. You just gain damage and nothing else. If you QD, it won't stop Ike. Fox can keep on shooting but you'll just gain little damage (though you'll have to approach sooner or later).
 

Rykoshet

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Not only does the laser not go the full length of FD, it's not the only **** stage in the game. Ban yoshi's and strike smashville in these situations, theyll likely take out lylat themselves and you now have a 50/50 chance at battlefield on the first round, a fairly neutral stage for both people.

Edit: Fox will **** the living **** out of ike on orpheon.
 

Royta

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Stay away from his Dair, it leads to a world of hurt and will quickly bring you to 'KO %'s' if you don't take messures avoiding it, if you shield his dair try and shield grab him before he grabs you out of your shield.

Its a game of pressure play, and fox has ways to do so, and so do you. The lasers do minor damage, but should not be ignored, and approaching is a ***** with his retreating Fairs which have a good hitbox. Best you can do is get up close and jab him / nair / fair. Keep up the pressure and you'll do fine.

Your biggest advantage is survival power, since Fox's smashes are easy to avoid. The most used way is to do them out of a Dair, which is avoidable. If you can avoid his main kill moves you should be able to live long which is very handy^^ (also the more % you have, the less you are combo-able)

Also his recovery is easily killable if you get the pattern down, but a good fox will work around that me thinks.

And like Rykoshet said, don't go Orpheon..you won't live to tell the tale ;p

EDIT: How is it going with the writen pieces about Jigss, Lucas and our king of evil? Looking forward to it!
 

Guilhe

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Edit: Fox will **** the living **** out of ike on orpheon.
Why is that?

Ike is another slow, but deadly type. The name of the game here is “Dodge and combo” Ike is horrifically strong, and can kill you amazingly early. But you’re the 3rd fastest character, so you can usually get out of the monster's way. His ending lag is bad(besides his bair, ill get to that in a sec), so use the openings to get in and attack. His neutral A combo is a big pain, and his utilt can be if timed right, If you can't get out of the way of neutral A, shield the WHOLE thing. Ikes usually edgeguard with either fair or charging B on the edge. This shouldnt be too much of an issure for you since fox has shine stall, and a fast side B. Ikes B air is deceptive. Its crazy fast, and its coming from a slow character. Be ready for it. If he jumping backwards at you, its pretty obvious its coming. His Side B is super easy to dodge and edgeguard, but aether isnt. Many ikes stay on the ledge, wait for you to come over, then drop and up b, giving them a free aether on you. Recognize this and watch for it.
Well, the jab cancelling possibilities weren’t mentioned at all. You’ve recommended shielding the whole Nair true combo but haven’t mentioned that the Ike player could cancel it to Dtilt, or restart the sequence, or whatever. Haven’t told not to DI away from Ike while being combo walked or you would just be combo walked more. So, there is more to Ike jabs…

And Ikes will most likely stay at the edge and try to Dtilt or Ftilt you out of the side B when edge guarding.

For the rest, it’s alright.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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why does everyone call it jab walking or combat walking? Holding A and repeating the jab combo is a jab lock. All locks in this game can be DIed just some are affected by it more than others.
 

M@v

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Why is that?



Well, the jab cancelling possibilities weren’t mentioned at all. You’ve recommended shielding the whole Nair true combo but haven’t mentioned that the Ike player could cancel it to Dtilt, or restart the sequence, or whatever. Haven’t told not to DI away from Ike while being combo walked or you would just be combo walked more. So, there is more to Ike jabs…

And Ikes will most likely stay at the edge and try to Dtilt or Ftilt you out of the side B when edge guarding.

For the rest, it’s alright.
Yeah it was just a quick summary of the discussion. For the whole thing, check the page numbers on the front page.
 

metroid1117

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why does everyone call it jab walking or combat walking? Holding A and repeating the jab combo is a jab lock. All locks in this game can be DIed just some are affected by it more than others.
This is a jab lock. It looks identical to a laser lock, with the only difference being that you perform it by jabbing your grounded opponent, then walking up to them and jabbing them again. Combat/Jab walking is different because your opponent isn't grounded during the jabs and because you're just holding A, relying on bad DI on the opponent's part.
 

XACE-K

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WTF Light, why are you breaking my stupid rules!? You better do DK or Boozer next to make up for it....

Anyways, I'll sit this one out. I have no knowledge on PT.
 

HeroMystic

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Why... Pokemon Trainer? It's a flame war waiting to happen.

Oh, and I'll get to the Ike/Lucas as soon as I can. But College is destroying me.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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well I'm intrested in seeing why they think a character who has trouble with range, disjointed hit boxes, dies early, and gets chain grabbed to an Fair follow up has an advantage on Ike.
 

•Col•

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well I'm intrested in seeing why they think a character who has trouble with range, disjointed hit boxes, dies early, and gets chain grabbed to an Fair follow up has an advantage on Ike.
My guess: "hes so small and fast that u cant hit or grab or hit him fast enough b4 he hits u"
 

Magik0722

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Well here is my knowledge of the ike matchup as a PT player.
Ivysaur: Since ike does not have a projectile, i find myself using razor leaf alot in order to make the ike approach me. If i predict a jump i like to UpB so he jumps into it for free damage. I use bair alot with ivysaur sicne it outranges most of ikes attacks unless he starts RARing some bairs himself, then it gets too risky for me. I use the nair to uptilt combo alot in order to get ike in the air, since it is hard for ike to approach ivysaur from the air since he has no reliable attacks to go to ivysuar with at that angle, the best bet would be a nair, which is easily stopped with most of ivysaurs attacks, namely Uair. The usualy why i get KOd by ike is a Ftilt followed by edgeguarding to tether hog. Learn how ivysaurs deal with tether hogging and counter that. Ivysaurs save their jump and use a razor leaf to hit the opponent off the ledge then immediately UpBs. To counter this, when he is falling at the same level horizonatally as the ledge go for the hug, this will make the razor leaf not damage you and be able to press L when you see the vinewhip comign at you.

Charizard: Ikes most important resource here is his shield. so dont be afraid to simpy run away from charizard to let your shield come back up. Charizard technically has a projectile but i dont really consider it one. Both of you will be approachign each other in this matchup. If your caught in a flamethrower use both the control stick and the C-Stick to smash DI out of it. This should be common sense but i always see peopel fallign for it, if you are sheidling against a flamethrower, dont roll towards the charizard. roll away, when you roll back you are invincible at the startup but the same cant be said with the foward roll, if you forward roll you will get hit by the flamethrower and be force to Tap DI out of it. Charizard does have an advantage over ike in edgeguarding, his Dair has very deceptive range and can metor smash you. I dont know how you ikes will get past this so thats up for you to decide.

Squirtle: This one is probably the easiest matchup for ike. Squirtle is very very light and you can KO him at aroudn 80%. Be knowledgeable about the differen squirtle ATs and yourll be fine. Spammign nair works alot, if you are currently on the egde use fall off and use UpB again, and the squirtle cant really do anythign about it. so you should have to problems there. At low percents try to make the squirtle approach you, since he can get you in an uptilt lock and finish it off wiht a Uair and Dair combo which causes alot of damage. Once the squirtle is tired he has a very hard time KOing ike, so take advantage of this and force him to Approach you. The squirtle to ivysaur transformation takes long enough that you will be able to get whereever the squirtle is when he is done transforming.
 

The Derrit

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My guess: "hes so small and fast that u cant hit or grab or hit him fast enough b4 he hits u"
Don't be so condescending.

Anyways I think we all agree squirtle has a time with ike, but he also has his advantages in the matchup as well which I will be back to argue with you later.

And while you mock it, it is partially true. Ike has very few moves outside of jabcombo and grab that can effectively punish squirtle. Squirtle has enough lagless aerials that it's relatively safe to get in and out. You only need to hit him like, three times, but a smart squirtle can stay pretty safe.
 

Toby.

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Squirtle has a massive advantage, becus hes so small and fast that u cant hit or grab or hit him fast enough b4 he hits u.

Have I met your expectations now? Not everyone on the PT board is an idiot. When people from the PT board say things as stupid as that, you can expect any number of intelligent PT mainers to correct them.

Squirtle has a lot of trouble in the matchup, and needs to bait like crazy to stand a chance at all. His options for gimping Ike are fairly good, but on stage he is outranged and overpowered by Ike. The chain grab makes things even harder. I'm not sure about the ratios themselves, though. Hydroplaning can be stopped with any number of attacks (or a shield, as always), and hydrograbbing is very difficult if the ike is spaced properly.

IF squirtle gets close enough to utilt you, expect about 40% damage if you are on a low %. At the very least you'll be popped up into an uncomfortable aerial position. I wouldn't expect a competent Ike to let squirtle get that close very often, though. This matchup really comes down to how well squirtle can predict and slip past your attacks. If squirtle succeeds you can take a significant amount of damage, possibly leading to an early gimp.

Water gun can be used to push Ike into the stage for a gimp on stages like Lylat and FD, or in the classic fashion to repel him from the stage. Beware of recovering from under the stage on those levels.

Squirtle's jab comes out on frame 1, so it should be able to beat out Ike's jab game fairly often. Shielding squirtles jab and going into a chain grab makes short work of this advantage.

I'll talk about the other pokes later.
 

Kinzer

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For Charizard, we have the spaced Fair... assuming you don't bust out an angled Flame Thrower or something.

Also I think Light (or someone) suggested a Quickdraw approach for Zard or something I dunno. I do know that while Charizard has a finite amount of flame, we can hold the charge forever. Still not the usual way you would want to get space...
 

Toby.

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Actually charizard can maintain his smallest flamethrower flame forever. I think if you angle it correctly it might still hit ike as well. I seem to remember something akin to that happening when I got in a flamethrower vs quickdraw standoff a while back.

Tis all a bit hazy though :p
 

Arturito_Burrito

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FYI squirtles jab game isn't better than Ike's just because it comes out 2 frames faster. Ike's has more follow ups and can lead into kill moves which means if you get jabbed at 100% theres a good chance your dieing. I'm not to sure how good squirtles jab is but Ike's is the best in the game so meh.

I would also like someone to explain to me how water gun works because many times all I see it doing is stopping the opponent from moving left, right, down, and up.

edit: does the smallest flame throws really out range QD? I actually believe QD sucks *** as an approach but I thought it had more range than this.

edit2: magik any chance you'll go to final smash 5? last Ike vs PT discussion I fought steeler in hobo so I'm wondering if I can get more matches although its a long ways away lol.
 

Toby.

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FYI squirtles jab game isn't better than Ike's just because it comes out 2 frames faster. Ike's has more follow ups and can lead into kill moves which means if you get jabbed at 100% theres a good chance your dieing. I'm not to sure how good squirtles jab is but Ike's is the best in the game so meh.

I would also like someone to explain to me how water gun works because many times all I see it doing is stopping the opponent from moving left, right, down, and up.

edit: does the smallest flame throws really out range QD? I actually believe QD sucks *** as an approach but I thought it had more range than this.
Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't actually trying to say squirtle has a better jab game. I was just pointing out that squirtle can get a jab in faster than ike can start his up, which is very useful if Ike is in a position to start up some jabbage. I'm quite aware of Ike's awesome jab game ;)

Water gun stalls the opponent if they have enough momentum going against it. It pushes them a long way if they aren't moving due to end lag/whatever. It works best when you combine it with an opponent that is moving the same direction as the water stream. This is what makes a b reversed water gun good at pushing the opponent a long way under the stage when they are trying to recover.

As I said, im not positive about the flamethrower. It's just a random thing I had a vague recollection of. I can probably test it out now though.
 

Toby.

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I don't think you'd achieve enough momentum to negate it, unfortunately. I don't believe that its a massive part of the matchup because that particular gimp has an element of risk to it, so many PT's probably wouldn't go for it.

But I'm sure most PT's would happily test it out with you over Wifi or at final smash 5.

Edit: about the risk, it all really depends on Ike's positioning. I could go into detail if you want, but Im not sure how much you guys want to talk about it :ohwell:
 
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