Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[PND]

Exactly, I don't know why it was even brought up.

 

[illinialex24]

Exactly, I don't know why it was even brought up.

Umm... Because he hasn't played a good Jigglypuff?

 

[PND]

Point taken.

 

[Glick]

I think that ike has the advantage, but its small.

 

[Rykoshet]

Sorry PNDmike went to sleep (and will do so again in a second), but yeah I think it's 55-45 ike. I really hate to leave it up to uncertainty but what it boils down to in my opinion is who is on the ball to get their *** out of a situation that they left themselves wide open in.

Ike: Don't charge smashes or eruption if you can help it, keep your *** somewhere in the middle of the stage, use retreating up airs at anything over 68ish to try to beat out a rising pound (and glick does tag me in the head if I don't power shield or have a full shield with pound, ****'s annoying as hell) and please for the love of god tech if you get down smashed. Autocanceled back airs are amazing too, you really don't lose too much by keeping your back to jigglypuff assuming you can turn and jab on a dime. It's easier to follow up a back air than it is retreating a front air and your nair can cover your back if you need to. If you're jumping back, it's basically a waiting game to see who budges first. An air dodge or a counter saves your bacon pretty easily but if you throw it first, you're eating an fair and you're getting gimped. Reverse aether just to mess up jiggly and put her in a position where she can be punished (if she has to jump up towards the ledge at any point you must capitalize on this, walkoff downair ends her without a remote fight left in jiggly's arsenal in this situation). Early kills, even on a light character (I mean taking her out at like 14) are big.

Jigglypuff: You can jump circles around ike, and there's a large chance you're going to do it. Do not use rollout too much or if you do, change directions before you even touch ike the first time because there's a good chance you're going to get countered if you telegraphed it too much and didn't use it as punishment. Rising pound towards the ledge is actually incredibly dangerous to do and there is a good chance you will be spiked for it. Watch out for reverse aether spikes and if you manage to get grabbed often for the release to aether to work out, you're probably doing something wrong. You're lucky in that you don't need to worry about ike's jab game at all but some other noteworthy moves to look out for are hyphen smashes, retreating ones at that, and up air to punish any sort of overshooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty8XnsmJ80g

Note that neither of us were playing hard or anything since it was wifi and we do play eachother in person rather regularly, but it's the only thing I had on hand.

 

[HeroMystic]

*wakes up*

.... Let say, an ike starts to charge eruption. Hoping that I'll attack during the frames he has super armor. A good jigglypuff would start to charge rollout. Rollout is infinite, so I can just wait till you use it and attack you before you can do anything about it. The same goes for smashs.

The only reason I brought up eruption on my match-up explanation was because I fought some Jigglypuffs that used Rollout to recover. In the case, Jigglypuff has to release otherwise she's plummeting to her doom.

But in any case, the Puff mains here (and a bit of Ryko I guess) has convinced me Ike's advantage isn't solid here, seeing as her aerial mobility overshadows a lot of Ike's quantity advantages.

However, I still say Ike at least has a slight advantage, mainly because I do believe his defensive abilities is a big wall that Jigglypuff has to push through. So I'm going with that 55:45 Ike. It'll help me sleep at night.

It'd be nice if you Jiggly mains can read Match-up explanation a few pages back and dissect it. I wanna be as accurate as possible here.

On a side note, we Ike mains need to find a match where we have a **** advantage. This is starting to get depressing.

 

[XtACY]

ike has a MAJOR advantage over jigglypuff. lol
what cant you guys see. id say its a 65:35
one stupid mistake with the jiggs and ike will wipe you out at 70%

 

[san.]

I think Ike only has a slight advantage. Even though Ike can try to space with retreating fair/nair and other moves such as that, it's just too easy for jigglypuff to get inside through dodging and shielding. Once a jiggly can throw Ike offstage, the Ike is basically finished, unless supreme luck makes the jiggly trip or make an accidental move or something.

Ike just has to be on his toes with movement the entire match, I think. Standing still would not work very well, because of jiggly's movement in the air would be overwhelming to Ike. Ike has to move a lot himself, too. Effective tilts like up tilt and nair help Ike keep the slight advantage.

This is a sort of matchup where either can 2-3stock each other easily with only very slight mistakes.

 

[XACE-K]

Wow, 5 pages of posts overnight all about a stupid puffball. Well since I'm seeing people argue about it, I think the match-up is 60:40 Ike advantage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

.....3 pages of constant confusion to the point I can't make heads or tails of it.....

Okay, just answer me these things in plain terms.

1) How would a Jigglypuff handle a Ike who is constantly SHNairing? As mentioned, very long lasting hitboxes, and auto-cancels on landing. If Jigglypuff is on the ground at the time, Jigglypuff shields it but misses the perfect shield, she's now in grab range for a grab release -> Aether. If Jigglypuff gets the perfect shield, the end result is both Ike and Jigglypuff on the ground and within Ike's Jab range, or with Ike on the ground and Jigglypuff beginning to take to the air, which would result with Ike (from what I understand of the mess known as the last 3 pages) shielding either a pound or an aerial. Both of these can be punished by Utilt afterwards. The aerial pound and aerial moves are both assuming that Ike didn't just attempt to jab in time (3-4 frames > 5-8 frames but it's close.) In this set up, Ike overall has a higher likelyhood of landing a hit then Jigglypuff.

If Jigglypuff was in the air at the time, she either gets hit, airdodges and then gets hit by lingering hitboxes, or is forced to retreat, and has nothing to take advantage of after as Ike has no lag after Nair, and she's still in range of Ike's Fair, which he could use while retreating to keep Jigglypuff from taking advantage of the minimal landing lag on that move. After that, we're just right back where we were a few moments ago, except Jigglypuff had to dodge 2 attacks, and Ike dodged none.

2) Do Jigglypuffs ever use Rollout to recover? If so, Eruption by the ledge time. But it sounds like an unlikely thing for Jigglypuff to do in the same way it's highly unlike that an Ike will use QD to recover.

3) What are good stages for Jigglypuff? How does she do at Corneria (one of Ike's best stages) and Pirate Ship (another of Ike's good stages, and it takes away a lot of Jigglypuff's WoP power due to the water)

4) How much range is on Jigglypuff's Dsmash? This is Jigglypuff's only real way of getting a KO on Ike fairly early on.

 

[illinialex24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAYfIzQpja0

Omg yes I was looking to play that sometime. Pay back Elizabeth awww.

*wakes up*


The only reason I brought up eruption on my match-up explanation was because I fought some Jigglypuffs that used Rollout to recover. In the case, Jigglypuff has to release otherwise she's plummeting to her doom.

But in any case, the Puff mains here (and a bit of Ryko I guess) has convinced me Ike's advantage isn't solid here, seeing as her aerial mobility overshadows a lot of Ike's quantity advantages.

However, I still say Ike at least has a slight advantage, mainly because I do believe his defensive abilities is a big wall that Jigglypuff has to push through. So I'm going with that 55:45 Ike. It'll help me sleep at night.

It'd be nice if you Jiggly mains can read Match-up explanation a few pages back and dissect it. I wanna be as accurate as possible here.

On a side note, we Ike mains need to find a match where we have a **** advantage. This is starting to get depressing.

See, the trick is you can grab the ledge with rollout recovery. So when she does release it, there is not guarantee but it is a good idea unless you are right next to the ledge charging it, in which case she'll release it early to fly over your head.

ike has a MAJOR advantage over jigglypuff. lol
what cant you guys see. id say its a 65:35
one stupid mistake with the jiggs and ike will wipe you out at 70%

You are arguing by a mistake standpoint and by this same reasoning, because of Ike's fairly bad recovery, I could argue on mistake with Ike and he's dead at like 20% but it would be irrelevant. You shouldn't make that big a mistake.

I think Ike only has a slight advantage. Even though Ike can try to space with retreating fair/nair and other moves such as that, it's just too easy for jigglypuff to get inside through dodging and shielding. Once a jiggly can throw Ike offstage, the Ike is basically finished, unless supreme luck makes the jiggly trip or make an accidental move or something.

Ike just has to be on his toes with movement the entire match, I think. Standing still would not work very well, because of jiggly's movement in the air would be overwhelming to Ike. Ike has to move a lot himself, too. Effective tilts like up tilt and nair help Ike keep the slight advantage.

This is a sort of matchup where either can 2-3stock each other easily with only very slight mistakes.

Definitely respectable.

.....3 pages of constant confusion to the point I can't make heads or tails of it.....

Okay, just answer me these things in plain terms.

1) How would a Jigglypuff handle a Ike who is constantly SHNairing? As mentioned, very long lasting hitboxes, and auto-cancels on landing. If Jigglypuff is on the ground at the time, Jigglypuff shields it but misses the perfect shield, she's now in grab range for a grab release -> Aether. If Jigglypuff gets the perfect shield, the end result is both Ike and Jigglypuff on the ground and within Ike's Jab range, or with Ike on the ground and Jigglypuff beginning to take to the air, which would result with Ike (from what I understand of the mess known as the last 3 pages) shielding either a pound or an aerial. Both of these can be punished by Utilt afterwards. The aerial pound and aerial moves are both assuming that Ike didn't just attempt to jab in time (3-4 frames > 5-8 frames but it's close.) In this set up, Ike overall has a higher likelyhood of landing a hit then Jigglypuff.

If Jigglypuff was in the air at the time, she either gets hit, airdodges and then gets hit by lingering hitboxes, or is forced to retreat, and has nothing to take advantage of after as Ike has no lag after Nair, and she's still in range of Ike's Fair, which he could use while retreating to keep Jigglypuff from taking advantage of the minimal landing lag on that move. After that, we're just right back where we were a few moments ago, except Jigglypuff had to dodge 2 attacks, and Ike dodged none.

2) Do Jigglypuffs ever use Rollout to recover? If so, Eruption by the ledge time. But it sounds like an unlikely thing for Jigglypuff to do in the same way it's highly unlike that an Ike will use QD to recover.

3) What are good stages for Jigglypuff? How does she do at Corneria (one of Ike's best stages) and Pirate Ship (another of Ike's good stages, and it takes away a lot of Jigglypuff's WoP power due to the water)

4) How much range is on Jigglypuff's Dsmash? This is Jigglypuff's only real way of getting a KO on Ike fairly early on.

You have proven your point. That you know nothing about Jigglypuff. D-smash has almost no range or power, and a too long start time.

 

[XACE-K]

You have proven your point. That you know nothing about Jigglypuff. D-smash has almost no range or power, and a too long start time.

True but at the right damage and near the ledge, it can kill Ike. Some characters have moves where they can kill Ike near the ledge at high enough damage (Marth's Counter, Wolf's d-throw) and Jiggs d-smash is one of them.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, you flat out ignore everything except for the last one? Dsmash sends Ike out at a bad angle when used near the edge and can send him to his dead zone rather quickly, much like Zelda's Dsmash can (just not as strong). I can see not answering the 2nd one as it was partly answered earlier in your post, but saying nothing to the rest except a low level insult?

Get a grip already. I was asking for clarification. As in: for the Nair example, I posted how I would see it happening, which means I am admitting I do not know as much about Jigglypuff as those who main her (which is true for most people about any character that isn't in the B ranking and higher for tournament results) and am asking in a round about way if this theory is correct or if I am missing something Jigglypuff can do.

I am also stating in the 3rd question that I don't know how Jigglypuff can do at those two stages, and seeing how those are good stages for Ike, it would be good to know. Pirate Ship would indeed lower WoP's strength, as it does not knock upwards, but horizontal. Combine that with the fact Ike will be falling in between hits, and he's going to hit the water before Jigglypuff can get him off screen unless he's at very high %dg.

Instead of stating things I have already admit in my post, just not nearly as blunt, answer the questions so we actually get somewhere in this discussion.

 

[illinialex24]

So, you flat out ignore everything except for the last one? Dsmash sends Ike out at a bad angle when used near the edge and can send him to his dead zone rather quickly, much like Zelda's Dsmash can (just not as strong). I can see not answering the 2nd one as it was partly answered earlier in your post, but saying nothing to the rest except a low level insult?

Get a grip already. I was asking for clarification. As in: for the Nair example, I posted how I would see it happening, which means I am admitting I do not know as much about Jigglypuff as those who main her (which is true for most people about any character that isn't in the B ranking and higher for tournament results) and am asking in a round about way if this theory is correct or if I am missing something Jigglypuff can do.

I am also stating in the 3rd question that I don't know how Jigglypuff can do at those two stages, and seeing how those are good stages for Ike, it would be good to know. Pirate Ship would indeed lower WoP's strength, as it does not knock upwards, but horizontal. Combine that with the fact Ike will be falling in between hits, and he's going to hit the water before Jigglypuff can get him off screen unless he's at very high %dg.

Instead of stating things I have already admit in my post, just not nearly as blunt, answer the questions so we actually get somewhere in this discussion.

I was going to answer the question later cause I really gtg right now. But D-smash has almost no application, its only useful against guys who don't know when to roll whatsoever and don't shield after rolling and those who hold onto a ledge forever.

 

[Glick]

Uh. I think Ryko posted the wrong video -_-

He meant to post this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty8XnsmJ80g


Also, the only reason I rolled off the edge like that was because it was wifi, lolz. I wouldn't have gotten spiked.


Anyways. About the whole rollout eruption thing. I use rollout to recover often, I do recall a situation where ryko tried to do an eruption on the ledge when i was rollout recovering. Even if hes on the ledge itself. Rollout auto ledge grabs if you aim it right and no damage is taken since it doesn't reach (this isn't melee).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The auto-grab range is greater then the Eruption hitbox? He could have just mistimed it by a few frames.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

On a side note, we Ike mains need to find a match where we have a **** advantage. This is starting to get depressing.

Squirtle and ganon?

You are arguing by a mistake standpoint and by this same reasoning, because of Ike's fairly bad recovery, I could argue on mistake with Ike and he's dead at like 20% but it would be irrelevant. You shouldn't make that big a mistake.
.

Most people are argueing by a mistake stand point. Ryko is doing it and so is hero I think. Ryko said its only a 55-45 because he was factoring in mistakes.

Anyways. About the whole rollout eruption thing. I use rollout to recover often, I do recall a situation where ryko tried to do an eruption on the ledge when i was rollout recovering. Even if hes on the ledge itself. Rollout auto ledge grabs if you aim it right and no damage is taken since it doesn't reach (this isn't melee).

Illusion auto sweet spots the ledge and Ike can hit falco and fox out of it with eruption. The longer eruption is charged the longer the hit box lasts so if your waiting to aim for the ledge then its just going to make eruption stronger and easier to time.

I think the best choice would be to go over Ike like illi said because a half charged eruption kills under 10%.

 

[Glick]

Well with that view point ike can beat anybody if he doesn't make any mistakes....

Also, illusion is different. Its hurtboxes are weird and they are long. Jigglypuff is one small ball of hurtbox.

Trust me I'm right.

This is stupid. I'm leaving.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

the hti boxes are whats weird, hurt boxes just stay with them. Not sure if being a small hurtbox matters because eruption covers the area before you sweet spot the ledge.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Anyone wanna fight my Jiggers?

Anyway.

Jigglypuff has the air over Ike. You have aerial range on him. Your N-air, F-air and B-air all have more range than any attack of Jigglypuff. Jigglypuffs have 3 aerial basic moves to go for you.
1. B-air. THE aerial attack. Used to continue on a 2nd B-air. Can be done twice in a shorthop. You'll fall for it.
2. Pound. OMFG Sex kick overload. It stays out too long, so spotdodge isn't gonna help. DO NOT SHIELD. Drains half your shield. Roll like a mofo, your roll is good.
3. F-air. Usually saved for the kill but can be done twice in a shorthop.

On the ground Jigglypuff is not always doomed. There's the F-smash to punish, Dash Attack which is quite strong, a grab game that has 10% on all throws and 6% P/sec pummel. The DAC is quite good too. The most wanted kill for Jigglypuffs: Drill-Rest. Full hop D-air to rest. It'll get you.
Still, Jigglypuff is the lightest in the game, so you should be ashamed to let him go past 100%. Your F-tilt can kill at 50% (guessing). All in all, I wouldn't rate this painfully hard. 60-40 Ike, cause you kill too easy.

 

[Ussi]

Anyone wanna fight my Jiggers?
Still, Jigglypuff is the lightest in the game, so you should be ashamed to let him go past 100%. Your F-tilt can kill at 50% (guessing). All in all, I wouldn't rate this painfully hard. 60-40 Ike, cause you kill too easy.

Wow o_O... someone here doesn't know Ike, f-SMASH kills jiggs at 40%, ftilt/utilt/usmash/uair kills at 85%

 

[Kinzer]

Point is Jiggs is going to die really early.

Also what happened to the Yoshi pic?

One more thing, you beytrayed us Light! You have gone to the broken side!!

 

[XACE-K]

One more thing, you beytrayed us Light! You have gone to the broken side!!

This coming from a person who went to the steak and spam filled side. Tsk tsk tsk.

 

[Kinzer]

Hey, Sonic sucks, we're all learning to player, but Ike is more solid than Sonic.

Though he can never hope to have Steak as hard as Sonics.

And we sure are filled with spam, it's a meat product you know.

 

[XACE-K]

Though he can never hope to have Steak as hard as Sonics.

Ike doesn't need steak......he has friends.

On-topic: How long does pound stay out for? I usually spike Jiggs during the lag when she pounded (if she's using it to recover)

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic has friends as well, have you played Sonic Heroes?

Anyway Pound roughly stays out for like the duration of two consistant spotdodges. It has a long hitbox it does.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

sonic heros is gay. All sonic games are gay now.

 

[Kinzer]

That's fine, that's your opinion, and I understand very well people hate Sonic more morally than they do MK, you're just one of them.

No seriously, flames don't work on me, I LACK emotion.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

no seriously all sonic games suck now. It's like a fact of life.

 

[Kinzer]

Lol, look at how offtopic we're going, where is Light, where are the Jigglypuffs, where is my copy of Sonic Unleashed... I wanna go play it now.

 

[HeroMystic]

where is my copy of Sonic Unleashed... I wanna go play it now.

Me too... but I need cash...

 

[YagamiLight]

no seriously all sonic games suck now. It's like a fact of life.

Pretty much.

Lol, look at how offtopic we're going, where is Light, where are the Jigglypuffs, where is my copy of Sonic Unleashed... I wanna go play it now.

I'm here, sort of. These few days have been fairly busy, and whenever I can play Brawl, I'm using Pit instead of Ike. He's much better than I originally gave him credit for. I'm probably still going ot be maining Ike since I can't be bothered to change my sig.

Me too... but I need cash...

You know there's a Wii "back-up" loader? Just throwing it out there.

 

[Kinzer]

You and Burrito suck... people call me crazy just because I main two entirely different characters that are like the exact opposite and all that good stuff. That's okay though, even though you people (might) hate me, I'll always lurk your boards even if you banish me from posting just because I like Ike as a character in Brawl.

Also what the Hell is this "back-up" loader thingimajig you're talking about?

 

[HeroMystic]

You know there's a Wii "back-up" loader? Just throwing it out there.

Looked it up.

Doubt it'll be that simple.

@Kinzer: Think of it as the Homebrew Channel's way of distributing ROMs.

 

[YagamiLight]

You and Burrito suck... people call me crazy just because I main two entirely different characters that are like the exact opposite and all that good stuff. That's okay though, even though you people (might) hate me, I'll always lurk your boards even if you banish me from posting just because I like Ike as a character in Brawl.

Also what the Hell is this "back-up" loader thingimajig you're talking about?

Kinzer, I most certainly don't hate you. I'm pretty amiable.

Looked it up.

Doubt it'll be that simple.

It's actually ridiculously simple.

All you need for Wii homebrew is Twilight Princess and an SD card, and all you need for Wii back-ups is DVD-Rs on top of that. Works for me when I can't be bothered to go rent a game to try it out.

TRYING OUT SHOULD BE FREE.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well, I got an assload of DVD-Rs, and could easily rent TP, but I don't have an SD card. So free stuff is out of reach until I can make my own income.

Lucky you though. Gotta say I'm jealous, but I'm pretty sure Nintendo won't put up for that since you know, you're squabbling with their cash.

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer, I most certainly don't hate you. I'm pretty amiable.

I see, so in the end, even if we may disagree on some stuff... we still fight for each other.

Cool.

On-off-topic: So hows life going for ya Light? I'm sure you're a busy person, but I hope you can muster the time to do write-ups. I think we all know how the fight goes for Jiggz/Ike, and we're just waiting for you to mvoe us on onto the next character... perhaps... Anyway! Because it's going to eventually come... *cough cough teh Boozer for #24 cough cough*

 

[SaltyKracka]

Kinzer, I most certainly don't hate you. I'm pretty amiable.



It's actually ridiculously simple.

All you need for Wii homebrew is Twilight Princess and an SD card, and all you need for Wii back-ups is DVD-Rs on top of that. Works for me when I can't be bothered to go rent a game to try it out.

TRYING OUT SHOULD BE FREE.

How does people do this Homebrew now? *Has TP and an SD card*

 

[YagamiLight]

Well, I got an assload of DVD-Rs, and could easily rent TP, but I don't have an SD card. So free stuff is out of reach until I can make my own income.

Lucky you though. Gotta say I'm jealous, but I'm pretty sure Nintendo won't put up for that since you know, you're squabbling with their cash.

Well, a 2gig SD card is only 15 dollars I believe, not too bad.

And yeah, Nintendo is attempting to stop homebrew in general by using Wii updates. On one hand it destroys pirates, but it also messes up legitimate homebrewers.

 

[HeroMystic]

I might feel inclined to do the Lucas/Ike match-up since I'm stuck at home with nothing to do.

EDIT: I'm sure Nintendo will fail like usual. They need to start throwing out lawsuits if they want it to be dealt with, which they won't.