Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Brinzy]

Is Frame 15 when the attack comes out at the very, very top? That would make it even longer for the rest of the move.

 

[illinialex24]

*sigh* I don't see how having to use Ike's second best move and relying on the Ike not knowing pounds range is "gold" but w/e.

Pound's hitbox comes out on the 7th frame from my own personal info and Ike's fair on the 18th... Jigg's Fair comes out on the 4th I believe and Jigg's bair on the 5th. Huge difference.

edit: illinialex if you live in chicago you should go play kirk, that way you can respect some Ike's whose faces you know.

Sure, where from Chicago is he?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Yes but the move doesn't actually start up to high. plus isn't the jigs air dodging like ryko said? Don't know if the scenario changed but if so seeing a move coming while your preforming an action doesn't matter. It's like saying o everyone can see a speed hug coming when your opponents back is towards the ledge. Doesn't matter if you see it coming its still going to work.


edit: thats why you start your moves before jigs does. I know that if Ike tries to clash moves he'll loose but why would he be trying that? Jigs should try to out speed Ike while Ike tries to out space and IMO out spacing matters more.

 

[illinialex24]

Yes but the move doesn't actually start up to high. plus isn't the jigs air dodging like ryko said? Don't know if the scenario changed but if so seeing a move coming while your preforming an action doesn't matter. It's like saying o everyone can see a speed hug coming when your opponents back is towards the ledge. Doesn't matter if you see it coming its still going to work.

That is an argument but the fact is that Jigglypuff has much faster moves in the air and so an Ike thinking he has great defense can be stuck in the fetal position if he isn't weary.

 

[Little England]

That analogy doesn't apply to Ike's fair or most attacks for that matter

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

ok so if the Ike doesn't know whats coming he'll get owned big surprise what happens if he does though?

edit: we're talking about Nair in the scenario I described.

 

[PND]

Firstly, Ike out spaces us. We outspeed and outmaneuver you. See: Why Wario is so good. Spacing is important. We have the tools to overcome spacing.

Secondly, Rykoshet: I'm just curious what you think the range of the matchup might be, as you seem to be the most well informed of this matchup. You have stipulated that you feel Ike has the advantage, are you looking at a 55-45 range?

If so, although I think it should be swapped, personally, I can completely understand where you're coming from. I think anything beyond that threshold is ridiculous.

If you wish not to speak a ratio, feel free.

 

[illinialex24]

ok so if the Ike doesn't know whats coming he'll get owned big surprise what happens if he does though?

edit: we're talking about Nair in the scenario I described.

Nair pretty much dominates a Jigglypuff if she just tries to approach in foolishly. But if she's cautious and smart about approaching, it shouldn't be the end of the world. It can't be punished that well but it isn't gamebreaking, although it is a major strategy for Ike.

And btw, I was wrong about Jigglypuff's frame data. Its 6 for fair, 5 for bair. Still much better though.

And I agree that except for nair, anticipating that he will attack generally saves you because his starting lag is so much higher.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

what are these tools? So far I've heard Ike not knowing pounds range and air dodging getting owned by Nair are gold.

edit: this foolish approach is what you called gold a few posts back. Ryko said you could use Nair and it would hit.

edit2: fair is 3 frames slower than Nair I don't know why that is such a big difference. plus its safe on shield.

 

[illinialex24]

what are these tools? So far I've heard Ike not knowing pounds range and air dodging getting owned by Nair are gold.

edit: this foolish approach is what you called gold a few posts back. Ryko said you could use Nair and it would hit.

Wait what? I have not said that. Pound isn't that smart if you are going for a fast approach, it has a hitbox on 7, so its slower than all aerials but it generally goes through the start of the htiboxes of Ike's attacks.

The difference between fair and nair is nair keeps its hitbox forever and although it is still slow, its great used defensively.

 

[PND]

what are these tools? So far I've heard Ike not knowing pounds range and air dodging getting owned by Nair are gold.

edit: this foolish approach is what you called gold a few posts back. Ryko said you could use Nair and it would hit.

edit2: fair is 3 frames slower than Nair I don't know why that is such a big difference. plus its safe on shield.

Maneuverability and speed. *facepalm* did you not read what I just typed?

I mean really, why do even bother posting? You only make the Ike boards look bad. You're an embarrassment, and I hope to hell that you never pick up Jiggs because, to be quite honest, you'd make me feel ashamed to represent her.

Stop trying.

 

[Little England]

edit: we're talking about Nair in the scenario I described.

oh ok. that wasn't clear to me

Ike's nair is pretty decent on Jiggly. Its range is just decent thought so its easy to wait for the opportun fair with jiggly to lead into combos. I'd say this is his best aerial on puff followed by his bair. Nonethless, a powershield on either = dair > rest

 

[illinialex24]

Maneuverability and speed. *facepalm* did you not read what I just typed?

I mean really, why do even bother posting? You only make the Ike boards look bad. You're an embarrassment, and I hope to hell that you never pick up Jiggs because, to be quite honest, you'd make me feel ashamed to represent her.

Stop trying.

Ouch... I do not want a flame war.

Everybody read this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203274

 

[Little England]

^LOL

I'm Little England and I approve this message

 

[PND]

I posted that in disappointment, not anger. Just so my tone is not misinterpreted.

 

[illinialex24]

^LOL

I'm Little England and I approve this message

LOL. You remind me of all those insanely annoying commercials. Anyway, back to the matchup.....

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Mind if I use some of this for my guide Rykosheet? I'll credit you and you're giving me gold here.

Umm yes you did. I also see a lot of answers and just being shield and punish even if they make it trough Ike's range.

Maneuverability and speed. *facepalm* did you not read what I just typed?

I mean really, why do even bother posting? You only make the Ike boards look bad. You're an embarrassment, and I hope to hell that you never pick up Jiggs because, to be quite honest, you'd make me feel ashamed to represent her.

Stop trying.

Do you mind elaborating on maneuverability and speed? We kill you at 30% if I say that do I get to respond everything from here as *face palm* stop trying? If I'm an embarrassment well then thats to bad for them.


edit: Nair and Bair auto cancel and it's only a rest if the Dair trips. I also remember someone saying that if you just hold shield rest won't hit but don't quote me on that.

 

[illinialex24]

Umm yes you did. I also see a lot of answers and just being shield and punish even if they make it trough Ike's range.

I can;t even understand you. What is it you want to say??

 

[Glick]

you know ryko... Ike has no reason to approach either. If jigs doesn't build up damage fast then I would just wait the clock out and land a jab on her when theres 10 seconds left.

lmao.

Do us all a favor and play a good jigglypuff.


oh and hay ryko.

 

[illinialex24]

lmao.

Do us all a favor and play a good jigglypuff.


oh and hay ryko.

First of all Burrito, you have to realize, pound kills jab so unless Jigglypuff is stupid enough with 10 seconds left to be sitting on the ground right next to Ike when you never approached her all game and she didn't either, I doubt this is going to happen.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Wait what? I have not said that. Pound isn't that smart if you are going for a fast approach, it has a hitbox on 7, so its slower than all aerials but it generally goes through the start of the htiboxes of Ike's attacks.

The difference between fair and nair is nair keeps its hitbox forever and although it is still slow, its great used defensively.

It sounded to me like you denied calling air dodging and pound gold. So I went and quoted the part where you said it.

I've played a good jigs and there is only 1 Ike main who thinks this is close to a neutral match up just because I'm the only one posting right now doesn't mean I'm crazy.

edit: And shield owns pound what happens after that?

 

[Little England]

Ike can barely shield and punish Jigglypuff if Jiggly does full jump fairs past
Ike's shield. Like once Jiggly is crouching next to Ike in his shield, what can he do?

 

[illinialex24]

It sounded to me like you denied calling air dodging and pound gold. So I went and quoted the part where you said it.

I've played a good jigs and there is only 1 Ike main who thinks this is close to a neutral match up just because I'm the only one posting right now doesn't mean I'm crazy.

edit: And shield owns pound what happens after that?

You can't shield while in a jab animation. Thats showing how foolish you are. A Jigglypuff is not gonna pound a shield against an Ike, or in general.

Bairs are great for shield pressure because they essentially allow you to punish a shield with little danger of getting punished whatsoever if the opponent is shielding or staying put.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Could we stick to one move? Ike has an answer to everything jigs has, switching the moves to say o this doesn't work because in reality we are doing this isn't a good way to do things.

I didn't actually mean spam jab in the last 10 seconds of of the match I meant land a jab in the last 10 seconds of the match but I only said that because ryko made it sound like Ike had to approach.

If jigs is trying to approach with Fair then we just hit her back with out own before she gets into our space. If she tries to approach with pound then you use a shield and then jab her.

 

[Little England]

Ike can barely shield and punish Jigglypuff if Jiggly does full jump fairs past
Ike's shield. Like once Jiggly is crouching next to Ike in his shield, what can he do?

Maybe you didn't see that

 

[illinialex24]

Could we stick to one move? Ike has an answer to everything jigs has, switching the moves to say o this doesn't work because in reality we are doing this isn't a good way to do things.

I didn't actually mean spam jab in the last 10 seconds of of the match I meant land a jab in the last 10 seconds of the match but I only said that because ryko made it sound like Ike had to approach.

If jigs is trying to approach with Fair then we just hit her back with out own before she gets into our space. If she tries to approach with pound then you use a shield and then jab her.

Lol what. You don't approach with pound unless A). The opponent is in the air and likely to try to attack or B) they are already committing to attack and pound is used as punishment.

You can't just say you would shield a pound when you are already using an attack, thats extremely foolish. You're arguments are just getting weaker and weaker.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Maybe you didn't see that

maybe you didn't see this

If she tries to approach with pound then you use a shield and then jab her.

edit: I've never said Ike was attacking. You said approaching with pound was gold and I said lol shield. then someone said lol we could Fair instead and I said ok we'll out space you then you said well you can't shield if your attacking but some how you can pound if your attacking.


If this is getting to confusing for you then just tell me how jigs approach from the start of the match.

 

[illinialex24]

maybe you didn't see this

Maybe you didn't see this:

Lol what. You don't approach with pound unless A). The opponent is in the air and likely to try to attack or B) they are already committing to attack and pound is used as punishment.

You can't just say you would shield a pound when you are already using an attack, thats extremely foolish. You're arguments are just getting weaker and weaker.

Therefore, how are you going to just magically shield a pound?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I really didn't see that

anyways how are you going to magically pound when your using Fair?


edit: You need to under stand that these are 2 different answers to 2 different approaches. If jigs doesn't approach with pound then you shouldn't have called it gold when ryko talked about it.

 

[Little England]

Jeez we really aren't following eachother........

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

yes I know lets just start over like I said how does jigs approach?

 

[illinialex24]

I really didn't see that

anyways how are you going to magically pound when your using Fair?

What?? I said if you already commit to a jab, which Ike's are fairly prone to do, you pound through. And you don't want to fair a shield that much, you can safely punish an Ike with smart bairs and some fairs but trust me, Jigglypuff is good against Ike's jabs.

 

[Glick]

Meh. 55-45 in my experience. Ike has power but jiggz has more speed and can combo the **** out of ike. Pound breaks through everything and rollout can punish smash charges(if there are any ikes that do that).

And burrito, by your explanations of jiggz approach methods, no. You haven't played good jiggz.


I also forgot to put in sheild piercing. I haven't really described it in detail to the jiggz community. But I have been using a method to sheild pierce with 100% accuracy. Once I feel like making a post about it I will. Has to do with pound. Ask ryko about it.

 

[illinialex24]

Meh. 55-45 in my experience. Ike has power but jiggz has more speed and can combo the **** out of ike. Pound breaks through everything and rollout can punish smash charges(if there are any ikes that do that).

And burrito, by your explanations of jiggz approach methods, no. You haven't played good jiggz.

This. You're arguing like the Jigglypuff will make a mistake so you can punish it so its a proof that Ike can punish Jigglypuff.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I am only going by ryko's gold against Ike plus I think we got lost along the way so please tell me how jigs are supposed to approach. Also I always hear rollout being more useless than taunt but incase jigs starts using roll out Ike just has to charge QD it will either results in jigs being hit or both moves canceling.

 

[illinialex24]

I am only going by ryko's gold against Ike plus I think we got lost along the way so please tell me how jigs are supposed to approach. Also I always hear rollout being more useless than taunt but incase jigs starts using roll out Ike just has to charge QD it will either results in jigs being hit or both moves canceling.

He said rollout is useful to punish a bad Ike who charges smashes. Its possibly the most effective or one of the most effective moves in the game at doing so.

Oh yeah and approach. Depends very much on opponents being grounded or in the air. This is way oversimplified but if they are on the ground bair shield punishing and barely in range fair punishing work pretty well.

In the air, pound, fair, and bair are your best options. Pound is if you want to attack through something the opponent will throw at you, fair is if you want a longer hitbox with either lots of knockback (early on), or little (later hitbox) to either put Ike in a bad position or set him up for more hits. Bair is great for a quick hit that is great to "combo" out of.

Nair also works if you know your opponent will air-dodge, it is insanely maneuverable but a long hitbox.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well since no one wants to tell me how jigs actually approaches then I'll just go to bed hopefully I'll see it tomorrow. I only have ryko's gold to fall back on as a jigs input right now *shrug*

 

[PND]

Jiggs can change direction in Rollout anyway. QD only goes straight. We can turn around twice, once to get out of your range, the second time to hit you.

But this situation is stupid and won't happen.

 

[Glick]

I am only going by ryko's gold against Ike plus I think we got lost along the way so please tell me how jigs are supposed to approach. Also I always hear rollout being more useless than taunt but incase jigs starts using roll out Ike just has to charge QD it will either results in jigs being hit or both moves canceling.

.... Let say, an ike starts to charge eruption. Hoping that I'll attack during the frames he has super armor. A good jigglypuff would start to charge rollout. Rollout is infinite, so I can just wait till you use it and attack you before you can do anything about it. The same goes for smashs.

Jigglypuff wont just spam rollout at ike in a predictable manner, unless your trying a mindgame or your extremly desperate for killing power.

Listen. Just trust me. Ike doesn't have a holy **** advantage on jiggz.

 

[illinialex24]

Jiggs can change direction in Rollout anyway. QD only goes straight. We can turn around twice, once to get out of your range, the second time to hit you.

But this situation is stupid and won't happen.

Yeah it really won't. And even if you turn around, he should be able to shield it by the time you get back to him so its a null game at best for Jigglypuff.

.... Let say, an ike starts to charge eruption. Hoping that I'll attack during the frames he has super armor. A good jigglypuff would start to charge rollout. Rollout is infinite, so I can just wait till you use it and attack you before you can do anything about it. The same goes for smashs.

Jigglypuff wont just spam rollout at ike in a predictable manner, unless your trying a mindgame or your extremly desperate for killing power.

Listen. Just trust me. Ike doesn't have a holy **** advantage on jiggz.

Exactly. Rollout's really only other uses are tech chases and bad opponents (I know I'm forgetting a few but I'm overgeneralizing). I don't really believe Ike has an advantage at all.