Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Hoser]

Finally, Ike vs. Jiggs. I have to get ready for work right now, so I can't write my full opinion on the situation right yet.

But I'll say now I find it in Ike's favor, 65:35~60:40.

 

[HeroMystic]

And I have it on my USB drive somewhere, but if you'd like to post it go ahead.

Might as well so it can be open for debate. I'm sure I'm missing something in here.

Ike vs Jigglypuff

Ike’s advantages: Very powerful, large range, good defensive game.

Jigglypuff’s advantages: High aerial mobility, good gimping, consistent aerial game.

Analysis

Jigglypuff is an often underestimated character throughout the entire Smash series. She’s incredibly light weight, has a sub-par ground game, and her sing is probably the worst special move in the game. On the other hand, she has a great aerial game, one of the best recoveries, and has great kill moves. It’s no wonder that whenever someone fights her blind, they get wrecked completely. This is why it’s best to know your enemy.

Ike is one of the most powerful characters in the game. Nearly everything in his moveset has the potential to KO, including his jabs. He also has a great amount of disjointed range and his jabs come out quick and easily knocks away the opponent, which serves up for a great defensive game. All of his aerials auto-cancel due to IASA frames for quick mobility, and his ideal kill moves come out rather quickly. On the rough side, his recovery is mediocre at best, can be aerial combo’d due to his weight, and for the most part can be gimped by the large majority of the cast.

Ike’s disadvantages easily compliment Jigglypuff’s advantages. However, Jigglypuff’s disadvantages easily compliment Ike’s advantages as well. In essence this match is all about exploiting weaknesses and covering your own.

Ike does a better job at this however, as he’ll be playing “really gay” in this match, and abuse his spacing ability. Retreating SH F-airs, SH N-airs, shieldgrabs, and jabs. This is essentially what Ike will be doing the majority of the match. Whatever Jigglypuff can do, Ike will have an answer for, and it’s even worse that Ike will not have to act first.

In order for Jigglypuff to win, she’ll have to resort to baiting and reading Ike’s movement to go for openings. Once inside, Jigglypuff needs to stay inside the entire time. This essentially means not getting knocked away and keeping the pressure close, because once Ike knocks Jigglypuff away, she’s back to square one.

Things Ike should look out for

-Jigglypuff’s D-air -> Rest, a rather deadly combo that’ll easily take out Ike at around 85%. Rest's hitbox is even smaller than her own body, but if it hits Ike’s lower portion (his knees) there’s a chance she could trip you into it that’s pretty much an automatic way for Rest to hit. Shield the whole thing if possible, but if you’re caught in it, (Smash) DI away from the D-air and powershield the rest. Thankfully for you, once Jigglypuff uses rest, you can go out and see a movie then come back and punish her. So if rest misses, take away her stock with a fully charged F-Smash.

-Side-B, or “Double Slap”. This’ll be Jigglypuff’s way of getting through your defenses, as this ability even beats Ike’s jabs. However, this does not beat Ike’s N-air, F-air, or just shieldgrabbing. Use it and abuse it.

-D-Smash. This is the perfect way for Jigglypuff to get a gimp KO on you, or just a KO in general. It’s not powerful, but it has enough knockback to it that it’ll send Ike downward and away from the stage, much like Zelda’s Down Smash. Try your best to stay out this and to not give Jigglypuff the option of doing so.

-Neutral B, or “Rollout”. Rollout is about as useful as Ike’s Quick Draw (which is not quite useful), but a good Jigglypuff would know how to use it. If you see her use it off-stage, predict where she’ll land at and charge up an Eruption. She’ll have to use it if she wants to have any chance of getting back on stage, which pretty much allows you to get a free stock kill due to Ike’s SA frames from Eruption. If She uses it on stage, give her a taste of her own medicine and charge up Quick Draw. At best you’ll hit and maybe even kill her. At worst, they’ll both cancel out. So it’s a win-win for you.

-Sing. If she’s dumb enough to use it, F-Smash accordingly.

Things Jigglypuff should look out for

-Ike’s KO potential. F-Smash kills Jigglypuff at 50% in the middle of Final Destination while Up-Smash kills at 90%. However, at 90% Ike won’t even need his smashes, as his tilts are practically Smash attacks that are quicker. Both F-tilt and U-tilt kills at 90% in the middle of Final Destination. At the edge, this’ll be a lot lower.

-Ike’s Ledge pressure. If you’re knocked off the edge and trying to recover, Ike can continuously thwart your efforts by using F-airs to keep you off the stage and waste your jumps. Worse yet, if you’re telegraphed easily, Ike can even pull off an F-smash or F-tilt. Remember however, you have high aerial mobility, and there are times when the best thing you can do is to not attack at all and just swing past your opponent. This would be one of these cases.

-B-air, Ike’s quickest aerial move with a great amount of KO potiential. This’ll kill Jigglypuff at 110% at the middle of FD, but Ike will be using it with his ledge pressure to get an easy KO. If Ike has his back turned, expect him to be using it.

-Ike’s grab release. An aerial grab release on Jigglypuff will allow Ike to use Aether on her if buffered beforehand. It’s a measly 11% damage, but since Ike will be shieldgrabbing a lot, it adds up quickly. Don’t get grabbed.

Stages in Ike’s Favor

-Corneria: This is Ike’s overall best stage and for obvious reasons. Very low blast zones, a wall infinite for Ike, and plenty of slopes for Ike to use Aetherslide to avoid getting punished. Jigglypuff would want to ban this if she wants to live.

-Pirate Ship: This doesn’t so much give Ike advantages, but kills Jigglypuff’s main advantage: gimping. An Ike that Jigglypuff cannot gimp will be a very frustrating match for the pokemon. Also, Ike can spike Jigglypuff through the water pretty easily. Ban this if Corneria is already banned.

-Luigi’s Mansion: This is in Ike’s favor for many reasons. First, the house lowers Jigglypuff’s options to get inside Ike’s range. Second, the house allows Ike to immediately get back onto the ground if Jigglypuff happens to knock him up to the air, putting the situation back to where it started. Lastly, the high ceiling and house itself saves Ike if Jigglypuff happens to get Rest off on Ike. On the plus side, Jigglypuff is protected from the house as well, but if she wants to have any chance at winning, she needs to break it down.

Essentially, any stage with low blast zones or negates gimping will be in a favor of Ike.

Stages in favor of Jigglypuff

-Norfair: Platform-dependent, and lava. This hinders Ike’s spacing ability and gives Jigglypuff numerous openings, especially from below, which is where Ike is most open at. Ike will probably ban this.

-Brinstar: The only thing that puts this in Jigglypuff’s favor is the lava, which limits the entire stage to three or one platform, which makes Ike result into camping. Otherwise, it’s not that great of a counterpick.

-Jungle Japes: This is Ike’s worst stage. His recovery makes it very hard to recover back onto the stage, and the way how the stage is designed hinders Ike’s spacing ability and result him into more or less camping. He can handle himself on this stage however.

Essentially, any stages that are platform-dependent and has low amount of space will be in favor of Jigglypuff.

Overall
All Ike really has to play gay and abuse his range, and the match is pretty much in the bag. It’s an uphill battle for Jigglypuff, but with the good use of baiting, counterpicking, and gimping, she has the ability to win.

Match-up ratio not given unless requested

 

[XACE-K]

I bet its something like you went to a pokemon tourney and lost to a jigs with some uber.

No, I don't play pokemon competitively. Just Smash.

But I will say it's the anime's fault.

 

[san.]

I say something to watch out for is jigglypuff's neutral air. When in a rough situation, just letting that attack out can potentially cause Ike to lose his spacing advantage momentarily. If Ike gets offstage, there is little he can do to get back. One nair from jigglypuff gimps Ike offstage. Just one.

un-sweetspotted fair to nair is also hard for Ike to dodge without really good timing. I use this to get opponents off stage and gimp. In the air, jigglypuff can get through Ike's defenses quite easily, even if it's an air dodge. Keeping firm on the ground is the best thing. Just reverse shield grab jigglypuff's rollout when it comes near.

On the ground, though, Ike may be able to space and get an easy kill. One mistake may be death for either character, but Ike has the advantage in a couple areas (that was talked about already multiple times) due to range and ground game compared to jigglypuff

 

[MysticKenji]

I can't see how Brinstar would be a good pick for Jiggs in this matchup.

 

[Rykoshet]

it's a 55:45 in ike's favor, due to the room for error and the practicality of the situations in which these show up (offstage vs anywhere and just overextending one's self)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I request a match up ratio hero.

 

[§leepy God]

I love the art on that Jigglypuff. (>w<)d

But I'll also say it's in Ike's favor, Jigglypuff is a close range, or an air fighter. As long as it's not an air battle the whole match, Ike got this as well.

 

[Blackbelt]

Urgh Ness users.

That is all.

As a Mario main, I agree with that.

 

[HeroMystic]

it's a 55:45 in ike's favor, due to the room for error and the practicality of the situations in which these show up (offstage vs anywhere and just overextending one's self)

Character Match-ups doesn't factor in mistakes or player skill, just facts and practical strategies.

I request a match up ratio hero.

If both Ike and Jigglypuff are playing perfectly, I'd have to say 65:35 Ike.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

ima go post that in the jigs' hood.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol, you're so trying to start up hell.

 

[DADdedede]

i think it would be at least 50:50 for ike and jiggly

 

[Rykoshet]

Character Match-ups doesn't factor in mistakes or player skill, just facts and practical strategies.

Uh, if you're not factoring in mistakes in a matchup that is ALL about mistakes then what are you going to base it on? No wonder you didn't come up with a ratio. If jiggly mis-spaces anything she gets koed at 70, that is a practical concern for her. If she doesnt misspace a thing, ike gets shield pierced/easy gimped even if he blocks and is on the run for the entire match, and note that "on the run" is entirely different than being in the defensive position for a matchup. No human is flawless and when you bring a match down to nothing but spacing, it's the very backbone of the match.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I love factoring in mistakes like those 20 pages of Ike vs sonic discussion where all about if this happens what does Ike do well he does this then sonic does this then Ike does this it was so fun.

Let's do sonic next I like how they do things. Although you can probably look at those 20 pages and come up with something.

 

[HeroMystic]

Uh, if you're not factoring in mistakes in a matchup that is ALL about mistakes then what are you going to base it on? No wonder you didn't come up with a ratio. If jiggly mis-spaces anything she gets koed at 70, that is a practical concern for her. If she doesnt misspace a thing, ike gets shield pierced/easy gimped even if he blocks and is on the run for the entire match, and note that "on the run" is entirely different than being in the defensive position for a matchup. No human is flawless and when you bring a match down to nothing but spacing, it's the very backbone of the match.

You're saying that we should base the match-up ratio on "What if?" statements. That's not accurate at all.

You're right. No human is flawless, which is why match-up ratios mean little in a competitive environment, but that's why we have character ratios because people need a general outlook on how, by moveset and practical strategy alone, a character does against another character. (Thus the counterpick system)

No "Mistakes" are implied. No "Mindgames" are implied. If we did that then every character should be evenly matched with every character because no one is perfect. This is judging by top level of play, and a perfect setting.

This is exactly why I'm never hellbent on placing match-up ratios because people largely misunderstand this. That, and it's a never-ending argument. Don't assume I couldn't "come up" with one, because I know the match-up very well and played against a Jigglypuff player on a regular basis. I've believed this was a 65:35 from the very start.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206542

what if owns. It's like looking at every option and teaches you what to do if you can do anything. Not this you should do this and this bull crap.

 

[HeroMystic]

Why do you think I don't like character match-ups?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

do you really want me to answer that? I'm on to many hit lists already.

 

[Little England]

lol, you're so trying to start up hell.

This one is smart.

 

[illinialex24]

This one is smart.

He is, thats why I said he's the one I respect for a good reason.

And I posted some more on the puff boards.

 

[Rykoshet]

You're saying that we should base the match-up ratio on "What if?" statements. That's not accurate at all.

You're right. No human is flawless, which is why match-up ratios mean little in a competitive environment, but that's why we have character ratios because people need a general outlook on how, by moveset and practical strategy alone, a character does against another character. (Thus the counterpick system)

No "Mistakes" are implied. No "Mindgames" are implied. If we did that then every character should be evenly matched with every character because no one is perfect. This is judging by top level of play, and a perfect setting.

This is exactly why I'm never hellbent on placing match-up ratios because people largely misunderstand this. That, and it's a never-ending argument. Don't assume I couldn't "come up" with one, because I know the match-up very well and played against a Jigglypuff player on a regular basis. I've believed this was a 65:35 from the very start.

This isn't a specific "what if", this isnt a "what if someone goes rollout crazy" etc etc etc scenario. Ike is not at an advantage in mobility (though he is in footspeed), priority or move speed. His only 2 boons here are range and power, and all he has in the matchup are punishing jigglypuff for mis-spacing. You can't just go head to head with jiggly with much of anything but back air and expect the matchup to go anywhere but gimpville 3x in a short matter of time. She never has to throw the first move, she never has to approach, and she sure as hell doesn't have to stay near you. Disregarding mistakes altogether, this being a 65:35 in ike's favor is laughable since the only way either person isn't going to make one is if neither person attacks, ever, the room for punishment on both ends is too great.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you know ryko... Ike has no reason to approach either. If jigs doesn't build up damage fast then I would just wait the clock out and land a jab on her when theres 10 seconds left.

 

[illinialex24]

you know ryko... Ike has no reason to approach either. If jigs doesn't build up damage fast then I would just wait the clock out and land a jab on her when theres 10 seconds left.

But she can stall understage very well. And Ike has little options if she chooses to stall. His spike shouldn't hit her and his B-Up wall should be that effective when she's under the stage and she can just go to the other side.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

well why would the jigs get a chance to stall? I don't think she'll be the first one to get a hit in if Ike refuses to approach.

 

[illinialex24]

well why would the jigs get a chance to stall? I don't think she'll be the first one to get a hit in if Ike refuses to approach.

Depends, but if not then she would approach if she took damage. And if she was leading and your not approaching then she will just stall you out.

This is essentially her gameplay against Olimar except she will just try to hit and run and stall beneath the stage for 7 minutes or so.

 

[Brinzy]

I dunno, it seems like Jigglypuff's aerial mobility alone means that Ike, at best for him, will be about neutral vs. an approaching Jigglypuff, while he'll lose out when approaching Jigglypuff himself. (Or we could just say that both get advantages when the other approaches, but I believe that Jigglypuff will always have a better time with this because her aerial mobility is amazing.)

I don't see a thing Ike has going for him that is special for dealing with Jigglypuff. He's strong, he has range... and that's it. Fortunately for him, Jigglypuff is extremely light and doesn't have stellar range. If this is in Ike's favor, it's not because he has any special strategies or something on Jigglypuff. It boils down to raw attributes, and I think that overall, Ike's attributes are slightly, slightly better than Jigglypuff's.

 

[Rykoshet]

you know ryko... Ike has no reason to approach either. If jigs doesn't build up damage fast then I would just wait the clock out and land a jab on her when theres 10 seconds left.

You do realize that ike cant approach in this matchup so saying he doesnt have to is ridiculously redundant, right? Mobility is the issue here, jigglypuff can get inside ike much easier than his range would have you believe.

This is essentially her gameplay against Olimar except she will just try to hit and run and stall beneath the stage for 7 minutes or so.

This tactic is in general starting to get banned around this area and if done in a friendly is more than justification for someone to get punched for being a raging douche.

 

[illinialex24]

I dunno, it seems like Jigglypuff's aerial mobility alone means that Ike, at best for him, will be about neutral vs. an approaching Jigglypuff, while he'll lose out when approaching Jigglypuff himself. (Or we could just say that both get advantages when the other approaches, but I believe that Jigglypuff will always have a better time with this because her aerial mobility is amazing.)

I don't see a thing Ike has going for him that is special for dealing with Jigglypuff. He's strong, he has range... and that's it. Fortunately for him, Jigglypuff is extremely light and doesn't have stellar range. If this is in Ike's favor, it's not because he has any special strategies or something on Jigglypuff. It boils down to raw attributes, and I think that overall, Ike's attributes are slightly, slightly better than Jigglypuff's.

Very well put.

You do realize that ike cant approach in this matchup so saying he doesnt have to is ridiculously redundant, right? Mobility is the issue here, jigglypuff can get inside ike much easier than his range would have you believe.

Hey, this is the Ike I've watched all the videos of. Ok, that makes two respectable Ike's. And yeah, its fairly true. His startup lag is a large issue in my opinion.

This tactic is in general starting to get banned around this area and if done in a friendly is more than justification for someone to get punched for being a raging douche.

Yeah, if only Olimar wasn't an 80-20 or 75-25 matchup in his favor... Oh wait.Its called necessity.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well Ike's defensive game is actually pretty great. I don't see what jigs has to get trough even with great aerial mobility I never hear of her being fast nor does she look like it, of course my memory could be a bit faulty.

range just seems like a pretty big factor in this match up where neither character is fast and both are going to be playing defensively.

edit: I'm not sure Ike has horrible start up lag it never seems like a problem for me.

 

[illinialex24]

Well Ike's defensive game is actually pretty great. I don't see what jigs has to get trough even with great aerial mobility I never hear of her being fast nor does she look like it, of course my memory could be a bit faulty.

range just seems like a pretty big factor in this match up where neither character is fast and both are going to be playing defensively.

She is I believe the fastest or second fastest aerial character in the game. Her aerial speed is much better than her ground speed, and I believe startup lag is huge because Jigglypuff really does not have very much although she does not have disjointed hitboxes...

 

[Rykoshet]

Yeah, if only Olimar wasn't an 80-20 or 75-25 matchup in his favor... Oh wait.Its called necessity.

As the game progresses people are going to find that olimar is an 80-20 on a lot of characters, but honestly if you're in a situation where there's a one in five chance you'll win, you're better off just not playing the character. I'd rather have a rule excluding understage stalling because it makes winning matches ridiculously easy when you factor it in, why wouldnt jiggz be an automatic win against everyone but meta and kirby?

Well Ike's defensive game is actually pretty great. I don't see what jigs has to get trough even with great aerial mobility I never hear of her being fast nor does she look like it, of course my memory could be a bit faulty.

Ike's defensive game is actually great if your opponent needs to land at some point within a mile of you. Jigglypuff can honestly approach you with air dodges and there's jack **** you can do about it aside from throw an aerial and hope it tags her, and best of luck following up on it. You throw any sort of aerial that isnt nair and you're getting kicked in the head for it, you throw a jab and chance are a pound will start out of range and end right inside you, tagging you because of it's ridiculously deceptive range and ungodly priority.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ike doesn't really have horrible start up lag though, Fair comes out 3 frames after Nair and no one has ever considered that move to have start up lag.

edit: throw out an aerial besides Ike's 2nd best move? I really see nothing wrong with that. You could also just grab after the air dodge, sure pound has deceptive range but how long does it take you to learn it? Is that move safe on shield? Seeing as the range is only because jigs moves a long with it I doubt it.

 

[illinialex24]

As the game progresses people are going to find that olimar is an 80-20 on a lot of characters, but honestly if you're in a situation where there's a one in five chance you'll win, you're better off just not playing the character. I'd rather have a rule excluding understage stalling because it makes winning matches ridiculously easy when you factor it in, why wouldnt jiggz be an automatic win against everyone but meta and kirby?

Not really because although its a style against Luigi, with his recovery he can stage spike you (very true story). Against any character with more than 2 jumps or with great recovery, major stalling won't work. Olimar is the best for this though because his jump is so bad and he cannot punish you really at all for being under.

Ike doesn't really have horrible start up lag though, Fair comes out 3 frames after Nair and no one has ever considered that move to have start up lag.

So I ignored nair... Excuse me.

Ike's defensive game is actually great if your opponent needs to land at some point within a mile of you. Jigglypuff can honestly approach you with air dodges and there's jack **** you can do about it aside from throw an aerial and hope it tags her, and best of luck following up on it. You throw any sort of aerial that isnt nair and you're getting kicked in the head for it, you throw a jab and chance are a pound will start out of range and end right inside you, tagging you because of it's ridiculously deceptive range and ungodly priority.

Mind if I use some of this for my guide Rykosheet? I'll credit you and you're giving me gold here.

 

[Little England]

Sure it does. Anyone can see that move coming

 

[Rykoshet]

Fair is a slow *** move starting up, I've had people dash attack me and beat it out (which hurts my head) >_>

Not really because although its a style against Luigi, with his recovery he can stage spike you (very true story). Against any character with more than 2 jumps or with great recovery, major stalling won't work. Olimar is the best for this though because his jump is so bad and he cannot punish you really at all for being under.

Under the stage stalling? Luigi can't do anything if you cross the stage repeatedly, it's a deathwish to even try. Even pit isn't able to chase you because the second he has to use wings he's a goner. I somehow forgot sonic but his options under the stage arent exactly too plentiful, though he does have better than most.

Edit: You can use it, but keep in mind that I'm still convinced ike is in the advantage in the matchup >_>

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Sure it does. Anyone can see that move coming

15 frames is horrible start up lag? never mind then Ike does suck.

 

[illinialex24]

Fair is a slow *** move starting up, I've had people dash attack me and beat it out (which hurts my head) >_>




Under the stage stalling? Luigi can't do anything if you cross the stage repeatedly, it's a deathwish to even try. Even pit isn't able to chase you because the second he has to use wings he's a goner. I somehow forgot sonic but his options under the stage arent exactly too plentiful, though he does have better than most.

Edit: You can use it, but keep in mind that I'm still convinced ike is in the advantage in the matchup >_>

Ok cool. Cause your giving me good info for getting inside and all that and this would help out a lot. And Luigi can bair you if you lapse badly in judgement. If you decided to using a rising pound to stall, he can run off quick and bair you bad for a strong stage spike. And I know that they cant do that much but Olimar really is the worst at this, with Ike being moderately bad.

15 frames is horrible start up lag? never mind then Ike does suck.

Um... considering Jigglypuff's moves come out in around a 3rd of that or less in the air...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

*sigh* I don't see how having to use Ike's second best move and relying on the Ike not knowing pounds range is "gold" but w/e.

edit: illinialex if you live in chicago you should go play kirk, that way you can respect some Ike's whose faces you know.

 

[Little England]

15 frames is plenty of time to see an attack lmao