Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[SaltyKracka]

I honestly fail to see how anyone could see it has 55-45 only. Care to explain your insight a bit more? Because Ike is beating Ganon in Range in both ground and air attacks, Power (KOing moves wise at least, fairly sure about % wise as well), and for the most part attack speed as well as ground movement speed. Their recovering abilities are roughly the same, leaning towards a slight edge for Ganon in distance (would take a comparison in fall speed and aerial movement speed to known for sure), Edgeguarding and not being edgeguarded are both leaning towards Ike's favor (4 Spikes + Range > 2 Spikes + Wiz Foot for edgeguarding, Aether with the threat of being spiked if going for the Dair > Mini-teleport grab if too close thanks to Ike's Dair disjointedness for not being edgeguarded)

Ganon has stronger, longer combos, but Ike's are easier to pull out if you count Jab combos. Ike's combos are easier to DI out of, Ganon's are easier to avoid the initial start. Ike also has his grab releases, including the rather deadly ledge air-release -> walk-off Fair. Ike will make it back no problem, Ganon will get sent to his dead zone fairly quickly. Both have good OoS options, slight lean towards Ganon's favor thanks to Dair out of shield. Any other major weaknesses for either one of the two, the other can't capitalize on (like not having projectiles/ways to deal with projectiles)

I see it as 65-35 Ike, possibly 70-30 if I underestimated Ike's ability to grab Ganon by the edge. It would need testing to see how often Ike can pull off A->Grab or A->AA->Grab in the right spot. 60-40 if you can prove something I have over looked that's worth a lot in Ganon's favor. I really see few areas where Ganon has a big advantage, compared to the number of areas Ike has the big advantage.

Putting it as 70-30 Ike is laughable. One of the things about this match is that neither character wants to be in grab range of the other (especially Ike), and a good Ganondorf will stay away from the ledge unless he's trying to kill you.

In addition, nobody mentions approaching here. It's understandable because neither character really has to approach, but I'm going to give the defensive advantage to Ganon here not because of range or speed or anything like that, but because he punishes all of Ike's approaches much harder than Ike can punish his. (Assuming he's a good G-dorf and doesn't just run in like an idiot with Choke or Wizkick).

I'd really have to say that because Ike is essentially a better version of Ganondorf and has the same general set of weaknesses, it's probably about a 60-40.

 

[HeroMystic]

Gonna have to agree with Salty and Ray. It's not 70:30 and 60:40 feels right. The Ikes can push for 65:35 but I personally can't push for that since the only Ganondorf I've played was Light's and my own.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Gonna have to agree with Salty and Ray. It's not 70:30 and 60:40 feels right. The Ikes can push for 65:35 but I personally can't push for that since the only Ganondorf I've played was Light's and my own.

I'd suggest looking up Kosk.

 

[XACE-K]

Gonna have to agree with Salty and Ray. It's not 70:30 and 60:40 feels right. The Ikes can push for 65:35 but I personally can't push for that since the only Ganondorf I've played was Light's and my own.

You've played your own Ganon? Please explain how.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Gonna have to agree with Salty and Ray. It's not 70:30 and 60:40 feels right. The Ikes can push for 65:35 but I personally can't push for that since the only Ganondorf I've played was Light's and my own.

Nice to hear, but you missed a main point of my statement. Most of the fuss coming from Ike players about this match-up was basically Ike's speed, range and combo-like ability. Which, once again, could all be avoided.

His chains of attacks all depend on our DI.

His speed isn't much faster then Ganon's:
Ganondorf: 5.20
Ike: 4.43

What's that, like 0.77? Pretty bearable.

Ike has range, but you're forgetting that Ganondorf could punish Ike OoS a lot harder then Ike could punish Ganon, even with Ike's range.

I'd say a 55:45.

 

[HeroMystic]

@X-ACE: You got hands and feet. =)

@Salty: Will do.

 

[:034:]

I'd wager a 60:40 as well... I've already brought up my points on a lot of things, but I will say that Ike is very overpowering - on paper. In theory, Ike has more range, speed and power, but in practice it's not so much a destructive match-up. Both opponents have ways of seriously laying the hurt on each other, Ike just has a bit of an easier time of getting the kill on Ganon. But, 70:30? Absolutely not, save that for when you're fighting Captain Falcon.

 

[XACE-K]

@X-ACE: You got hands and feet. =)

lol

And just call me Xace.

I'd wager a 60:40 as well... I've already brought up my points on a lot of things, but I will say that Ike is very overpowering - on paper. In theory, Ike has more range, speed and power, but in practice it's not so much a destructive match-up. Both opponents have ways of seriously laying the hurt on each other, Ike just has a bit of an easier time of getting the kill on Ganon. But, 70:30? Absolutely not, save that for when you're fighting Captain Falcon.

Agreed. Ganon does have a chance to beat Ike so Ike doesn't completely dominate him.

 

[YagamiLight]

Yoshi write-up is complete.

As for Ganon, it's not completely terrible for him. 70:30 is probably wrong, I'll change that at a later date.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol @ Light skipping Lucas.

Having trouble with that?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What page are Kirby and Olimar mentioned on?

 

[•Col•]

His speed isn't much faster then Ganon's:
Ganondorf: 5.20
Ike: 4.43

What's that, like 0.77? Pretty bearable.

Err... I don't know what that time is supposed to be... Running speed? And is that supposed to be seconds?

Anyway, a 8/10's of second is A LOT of time... >.>


And I always thought Ike was Ganondorf was one of his best matchups... o-o I thought 65-35 was a reasonable number... xD

Isn't Ike's Eruption edgeguard REALLY effective against Ganondorf as well...?

EDIT: And Durango, just read the summary on the first page... xD It'll be a lot easier...

 

[Flamingo777]

Thanks for the matchup thread, I loves the pictures!

 

[Sharky]

*looks at Yoshi summary*

I refuse to acknowledge a match-up summary that lists Yoshi's grab game as "mediocre." Sorry, but this isn't working for me. The guy also seems to have completely ignored my mini-wall of text on ledgecamping against Ike.

 

[YagamiLight]

lol @ Light skipping Lucas.

Having trouble with that?

Haha, yeah. I'll probably get to him, maybe next year.

Thanks for the matchup thread, I loves the pictures!

Thanks for the compliment!

*looks at Yoshi summary*

I refuse to acknowledge a match-up summary that lists Yoshi's grab game as "mediocre." Sorry, but this isn't working for me. The guy also seems to have completely ignored my mini-wall of text on ledgecamping against Ike.

Yoshi's standing grab is bad and his dash grab is pretty mediocre as well. His throws aren't much to talk about either.

You'll have to excuse me for missing/forgetting about the ledgecamping, as some time has elapsed and it just slipped my mind. If you would be so kind so as to link to it, I'll edit it soon.

 

[HeroMystic]

Haha, yeah. I'll probably get to him, maybe next year.

I know, the Lucas match-up is kinda... dull. It only gets interesting when they go for the gimp. XD

But after dealing with the Ness boards as a Mario main... I'm kinda dreading the eventual Ness match-up. >_>

 

[YagamiLight]

I know, the Lucas match-up is kinda... dull. It only gets interesting when they go for the gimp. XD

But after dealing with the Ness boards as a Mario main... I'm kinda dreading the eventual Ness match-up. >_>

Urgh Ness users.

That is all.

 

[Mmac]

You know, the other thread (Ike getting gimped out of Aether), got me thinking. What if Yoshi grabs Ike out of Aether and Releases him back off the edge? I think it could actually be a certain death, because Yoshi can easily intercept you from release without a Double Jump to help you retaliate...

 

[Shiri]

My testing from a few weeks ago has shown that Yoshi cannot grab Ike's Aether.

I could be wrong, however.

 

[Sharky]

Yoshi's standing grab is bad and his dash grab is pretty mediocre as well. His throws aren't much to talk about either.

You'll have to excuse me for missing/forgetting about the ledgecamping, as some time has elapsed and it just slipped my mind. If you would be so kind so as to link to it, I'll edit it soon.

The bit about the dash grab is what perturbs me here. Especially you calling it "sluggish" in the summary, when it gets most of the grabs in this match-up. The only slow thing about it is the end-lag when it misses, which shouldn't happen if the Yoshi uses it right. It has a blind spot (misses) right in front of Yoshi, but why would we dash-grab right in front of Ike? With its combination of speed and range, I'd put it up there with D3's and Olimar's (who's grabs have weaknesses of their own to speak of, anyway.)


From my ledgecamping thread in the Yoshi forums, I used Ike as an example. I feel I did a better job explaining it there than here, so:

possibility one: Ike tries to dtilt spike.
response: drop down from the ledge, punish endlag with DJ aerial OR ledge attack OR drop, DJAD past attack, and punish with a bair->whatever OR drop down and DJC egglay -> edgeguarding tactics.

possibility two: Ike anticipates ledgehop with SH fair.
response: Egg toss on edge OR DJ through fair and counter with aerial OR climb up from edge and try to counter the endlag OR DJAD past and punish with aerial/jabs/tilts.

possitility three: Ike waits for you to come up.
resopnse: ECE lol OR DJ with appropriately timed aerial or airdodge depending on what it seems like the Ike will do OR something completely different and WTF-like. =P

possibility four: Ike comes off-stage with an aerial (bair or dair probably)
response: Depends on damage and the aerial used. If you're at relatively low damage, you could use DJ armor to go through/counter the attack (nair sounds nice) OR drop, wait, and then counter OR climb back on stage and reverse the situation (Ike isn't quite as good at ledgecamping so this is a good thing lol) OR DJAD through and do the same as climbing back on stage. I wouldn't trust the DJ armor tactics against a dair, obviously. Therefore, if you think that's what he'll do, don't do that. With bair, don't DJ through at high percentages (again, for obvious DJ armor reasons). Timing is important, and this is going to be a lot of guesswork. If he shorthops, he's most likely going to dair. If he runs straight off the stage, it's definitely a bair.

 

[YagamiLight]

You know, the other thread (Ike getting gimped out of Aether), got me thinking. What if Yoshi grabs Ike out of Aether and Releases him back off the edge? I think it could actually be a certain death, because Yoshi can easily intercept you from release without a Double Jump to help you retaliate...

My testing from a few weeks ago has shown that Yoshi cannot grab Ike's Aether.

I could be wrong, however.

I'll check this out next time I boot up Brawl (ToS2 is too good to take out).

The bit about the dash grab is what perturbs me here. Especially you calling it "sluggish" in the summary, when it gets most of the grabs in this match-up. The only slow thing about it is the end-lag when it misses, which shouldn't happen if the Yoshi uses it right. It has a blind spot (misses) right in front of Yoshi, but why would we dash-grab right in front of Ike? With its combination of speed and range, I'd put it up there with D3's and Olimar's (who's grabs have weaknesses of their own to speak of, anyway.)


From my ledgecamping thread in the Yoshi forums, I used Ike as an example. I feel I did a better job explaining it there than here, so:

I'll expand the ledgegame and grab bit then, thanks for the input!

 

[Sharky]

I've thought about grabbing aether before, as well. I've never been successful in it before, though. I honestly don't think it's do-able. =/

 

[XACE-K]

I've thought about grabbing aether before, as well. I've never been successful in it before, though. I honestly don't think it's do-able. =/

It's not. I've tried it with all characters and it won't happen. Your best choice is to just hit him out of ether.

 

[Ussi]

(ToS2 is too good to take out).

I am in this situation except add two younger siblings hogging it from you as well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yoshi's standing grab is bad and his dash grab is pretty mediocre as well. His throws aren't much to talk about either.

So? His pivot grab is amazing. He grabs defensively utilizing it.

So what about his throws, his grab release options are great. Granted, I'm not sure how well they work on Ike, but Yoshi has a good grab game.

 

[Ussi]

So? His pivot grab is amazing. He grabs defensively utilizing it.

So what about his throws, his grab release options are great. Granted, I'm not sure how well they work on Ike, but Yoshi has a good grab game.

It's about how good Yoshi can land a grab on Ike.

 

[YagamiLight]

I am in this situation except add two younger siblings hogging it from you as well.

Such a great game, is it not?

It's about how good Yoshi can land a grab on Ike.

Exactly. He'll be landing the dash grab the most, which isn't too great of a grab. The pivot is really good but the chances that Ike'll be caught by it are low.

 

[Ussi]

Such a great game, is it not?

I have more fun playing it since I get to share the game experience with someone everyday practically. Plus the game got better in its sequel, and it has a really great story. More off topic, who did you play as (usually)?

Spoiler

Emil or Marta? Or actually one of the old ToS players? And don't spoil anything I'm only 22 hours into the game.

On topic:

I have no jiggs experience. But from what I've seen, Jiggs's Pound packs a ton of priority, so we have to stay mid-range on her. Since we drastically out range and have massive power, it's not to hard to intimidate Jiggs. However, she is known for her WoP and if she lands it on you, you're pretty much dead. However, brawl does not like combos/WoPs so most of the time you can DI and airdodge away.

Jiggs may have aerial mobility but we have range. Since she lacks range, she has to get in really fast. This is only doable when Ike is in after lag. So if you keep using nair, she shouldn't find time to punish you. fsmash kills at 40%ish, not like you'll land often though, so you have to kill her by 85%.

One thing to note is that the higher% you are, the harder it is to WoP you.

 

[HeroMystic]

Jiggs huh?

This won't end well.

 

[XACE-K]

I hate Jiggs. Not by playing as her or against her but....long story.

-Use your range on her. (Duh.)

-She can WoP you but like Ussi said, the higher %s you are, the harder it is.

-I like to CP stages with platforms. You can platform abuse and jump on a platform if she charges Rollout.

-At high %s, D-air -> Rest will be a pain if it hits. You should always watch out for it if she d-airs.

All I can think off. Just the thought of Jiggs in my head makes me pissed.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I bet its something like you went to a pokemon tourney and lost to a jigs with some uber.

 

[Kinzer]

Jiggs is the source of all evil.

Everybody knows.

*Cough*

Rollout is all to easy to counter, teach them a lesson about spamming it offstage.

You outrange Jiggs in almost everything if not already (Pound is deceptively long).

Jiggz has a sex kick that can be used to get out sticky situations... but as if Ike has combos.

Jiggz' UTilt might be used to rack uo some damage on you early ingame.

Sing... just don't get hit with it, it's insulting.

Jiggz won't be using Rest on you a lot, whiff ones defenitely mean death when it comes to Ike.

As Xace said, anywhere with platforms is nice.

All I got for now.

 

[YagamiLight]

Jiggs huh?

This won't end well.

An Ike match-up discussion ending well is a rare feat in and of itself.

I have more fun playing it since I get to share the game experience with someone everyday practically. Plus the game got better in its sequel, and it has a really great story. More off topic, who did you play as (usually)?

Spoiler

Emil or Marta? Or actually one of the old ToS players? And don't spoil anything I'm only 22 hours into the game.

At the moment I'm basically trying out different monsters to see how they fare.

As for my party in ToS, it was quite the feat of genius (If you haven't played ToS1 and this'll be a spoiler for you, get up and go buy it. NOW.)

-Zelos
-Sheena
-Presea
-Raine

The reason this works so well is that not only do all of them have solid abilities and niche roles that fit in together, but Zelos also has the Casanova ability that increases some stats for every female on your side in battle. Speaking of Zelos, my avatar was swapped for him.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

why do people care if things end well? Flaming is awesome.


edit: thats a guy?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Zelos looks like a woman in your avatar. >_>

Anyways, someone should let the Jigglypuff boards know of this topic.

I just hope they don't use their videos as the way to judge how a good Ike plays.....*shutters*

 

[Kinzer]

I don't think we have to worry about that, I trust that Illinialex is smarter than that.

...At least, he started a thread here at the Ike boards telling people who don't already know that Ike doesn't totally suck, but the videos on Youtube (or some of them at least) suggest otherwise.

Anyway he's still a solid character, don't get me wrong on that.

 

[HeroMystic]

Zelos looks like a woman in your avatar. >_>

More like a woman's face on a man's body.

Light, you still have the analysis I sent you weeks ago? If not I can always post it here.

 

[YagamiLight]

why do people care if things end well? Flaming is awesome.


edit: thats a guy?

Zelos looks like a woman in your avatar. >_>

More like a woman's face on a man's body.

Light, you still have the analysis I sent you weeks ago? If not I can always post it here.

In retrospect it is exceedingly hard to find a manly picture of Zelos. Stay tuned.

And I have it on my USB drive somewhere, but if you'd like to post it go ahead.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

that thread was the stupidest **** ever I don't trust that guy because of it.

 

[metroid1117]

In my opinion, Jigglypuff-Ike is another one of the few match-ups where Ike has the slight upper-hand. Jigglypuff has an amazing air game, but to use it she has to get past FAir, NAir, and UTilt - all of which are very capable of shutting her out. A fun thing to do is purposely whiff FAirs and then use an UTilt during the IASA frames so that it will catch them out of their BAir/FAir if they tried punishing you for the FAir. Jigglypuff is very light, you'll be killing her before 90% even if they DI well.

If you fudge up your spacing, however, Jigglypuff can become a very dangerous opponent. Her FAir and BAir are amazing at WoP'ing you off the stage, and being baited to airdodge can result in you getting hit with a Rest, along with DAir -> Rest. If they spam grounded Rollouts, be aware that QD clashes with it when they're charged at the same time. Watch out for the FSmash; if you don't get gimped, you'll be killed by either Rest or that.