Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Kirk]

I approve of this picture.

That, and Ganon's Dtilt is amazing.

That, and what everyone else already said. :o

 

[SaltyKracka]

True but think about it.

Both are powerful, both are slow whether it may be running or walking. Ganon's old while Ike's young. Both can use swords (but Ganon prefers not to). *insert other dumb reasons here*

And that's why Ganon is Ike's father and Marth is the mother.

No, it just means that Ganon and Greil are the same person from different universes. And they're so very MANLY, the sheer MANLINESS shines through the universal divide to imbue Ike with some of their shared MANLINESS.

 

[fromundaman]

No, it just means that Ganon and Greil are the same person from different universes. And they're so very MANLY, the sheer MANLINESS shines through the universal divide to imbue Ike with some of their shared MANLINESS.

I'm pretty sure Ganon wouldn't get killed by the Black Knight. Warlock Punch can defeat any blessing by some pansy goddess, provided he sits there and waits for it to hit XD

Anyway, I'd say 55/45 for Ike is good for this match-up IMO. (Why the hell did I even say that? Of course it's my opinion... who else's would it be?)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I say 65-35 Ike IMO.

And the Black Knight has like, 35 Speed and 45 Def. Ganon would get double Luna'd. XD

 

[fromundaman]

And the Black Knight has like, 35 Speed and 45 Def. Ganon would get double Luna'd. XD

Ganon flies away!

Also, if for some strange reason the Black Knight can get damaged by random mages in the first act of Radiant Dawn on hard, I'm certain Ganon can do some damage.


I dunno, 65/35 seems pretty steep to me. The characters are pretty alike, though I think Ike has a slight advantage due to his Ftilt and Fair, as well as Aether which can make you harder to gimp than most.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

did u guys get the yoshi write done yet i would like to see it, i saw somethin about punishing eggz.
not all eggz are made to hit they can stop approaches also and can be used defensivly to slide back a good disatance and and even slide off and touch the edge

 

[XACE-K]

did u guys get the yoshi write done yet i would like to see it, i saw somethin about punishing eggz.

.....

Does anybody read the OP nowadays? That's where the d@mn write-up would be!!

 

[•Col•]

I'm not sure what's been said about Ganondorf, but...

Just a little fun fact... xD If you're at low %'s, you're standing at the edge, and then Ganondorf Up B's and grabs you, you'll get sent back a bit, but you can ftlit him after he does that little hop off of you during the explosion part of the Up B grab...

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm not sure what's been said about Ganondorf, but...

Just a little fun fact... xD If you're at low %'s, you're standing at the edge, and then Ganondorf Up B's and grabs you, you'll get sent back a bit, but you can ftlit him after he does that little hop off of you during the explosion part of the Up B grab...

It's well known that Sakurai hates Ganon's recovery.

 

[metroid1117]

I'm not sure what's been said about Ganondorf, but...

Just a little fun fact... xD If you're at low %'s, you're standing at the edge, and then Ganondorf Up B's and grabs you, you'll get sent back a bit, but you can ftlit him after he does that little hop off of you during the explosion part of the Up B grab...

Lol, I have to try that next time I play a Ganon. I wonder if you can DTilt spike...

 

[SaltyKracka]

Lol, I have to try that next time I play a Ganon. I wonder if you can DTilt spike...

Not going to be happening. The hug sends you far enough that you won't be able to do it in time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I dunno, 65/35 seems pretty steep to me. The characters are pretty alike, though I think Ike has a slight advantage due to his Ftilt and Fair, as well as Aether which can make you harder to gimp than most.

I see it as they are alike like you said, but Ike has:

1) Range in both ground and air
2) Attack Speed (for once. >_>)
3) Small edge in power
4) Minimal fear of being gimped (at least compared to all of those other characters with projectiles or can go far off the stage with quick attacks and still make it back)
5) Superior Edgeguarding
6) A grab release which can send Ganon into the dead zone fairly quickly, depending how fresh Fair is.
7) The usual jab combos

While Ganon has.
1) Tech pwnage if Side B connects
2) Ganoncide when in the lead/really far behind in the same stock % wise
3) Tech Pwning with Side B and follow ups
4) The ability to fly like Superman randomly
5) Wiz Foot Canceling
6) Did I mention the things he can do following up his Flame Choke? They are a really big thing after all.

And they both have:
1) Killer Spikes (Ike has more, Ganon's is slightly stronger)
2) Ways to take down the opponent with them
3) Big Dead Zones >_>
4) Aerial -> Ground attack combos at low %s

Unless I'm missing something, Ike simply has more going for him from what I can see. Ganon Side B and their follow ups help him a lot and keep the match up from being harder for him, but there are a lot of things he can't answer well that Ike can throw at him.

 

[XACE-K]

Not going to be happening. The hug sends you far enough that you won't be able to do it in time.

Well as awesome as a d-tilt spike would be, an f-tilt would be the next best thing to do IMO. Good range and could kill if Ganon has enough damage.

 

[Hoser]

A2Zomg said "stale", not "stall".

Ike's Jab is going to lose a whole lot of it's power during this match-up, it won't be a viable kill move.



Last I checked, Nidtendofreak didn't classify as a Ganon main.

He meant stale, it was a typo.

And wtf? Jab isn't exactly one of our killing moves. It seems to me as though you have little/no knowledge of Ike whatsoever.

 

[fromundaman]

I see it as they are alike like you said, but Ike has:

1) Range in both ground and air
2) Attack Speed (for once. >_>)
3) Small edge in power
4) Minimal fear of being gimped (at least compared to all of those other characters with projectiles or can go far off the stage with quick attacks and still make it back)
5) Superior Edgeguarding
6) A grab release which can send Ganon into the dead zone fairly quickly, depending how fresh Fair is.
7) The usual jab combos

While Ganon has.
1) Tech pwnage if Side B connects
2) Ganoncide when in the lead/really far behind in the same stock % wise
3) Tech Pwning with Side B and follow ups
4) The ability to fly like Superman randomly
5) Wiz Foot Canceling
6) Did I mention the things he can do following up his Flame Choke? They are a really big thing after all.

And they both have:
1) Killer Spikes (Ike has more, Ganon's is slightly stronger)
2) Ways to take down the opponent with them
3) Big Dead Zones >_>
4) Aerial -> Ground attack combos at low %s

Unless I'm missing something, Ike simply has more going for him from what I can see. Ganon Side B and their follow ups help him a lot and keep the match up from being harder for him, but there are a lot of things he can't answer well that Ike can throw at him.

A couple things I'd like to mention:

For example, of attack speed, while Ike's attacks tend to take less time overall, Ganon's attacks, for the most part, have a faster startup time (Though I don't know frame data. I'm just going off what it seems like when I play them.)

Doesn't the grab have to be at the edge for the grab release to work though?

I believe that Ganon, should he manage to get to the ledge (which he'll often do from the stage since it is a nice position for him), has quite a few options to hurt Ike, and I'm pretty sure Uairs through the stage won't get us hit by a Dtilt (Though if I'm wrong this is a moot point).

Technically, both have two spikes, since the end of Uair sends at a downwards angle (though I guess it's not straight down, so you might not consider it a spike).

In my opinion, Ike has a better spacing game than Ganon.

I think Ganon has more OoS options, which would be important in this matchup (though I could be wrong on this).

Ike's grab range is much better than Ganon's, not that that's saying much... (Ganon has T-rex arms )

If for any reason both characters are recovering (suppose one misses a gimp), then Ganon can grab you out of your Aether with Dark Dive and potentially stage spike you.

Most of Ganon's attacks either send you upwards, where we WILL be able to fly up and beat you off the top soon enough (just let us get the hang of it.), or semi-spike, which can make recovery impossible for Ike (Ftilt is the main one you want to watch out for).

Also, wizkick off the very edge of the stage towards you while recovering can interfere with your recovery (we love doing it after high % jabs, Ftilts, or Fsmashes), while still making it back.

4) Aerial -> Ground attack combos at low %s

While that is true, I personally don't find them equal at all. Maybe it is due to my lack of skill as Ganon, but I think hitting Ike's Nair is MUCH easier than hitting with a Ganon Dair, which makes getting the combos that follow much easier for Ike to pull off than Ganon.

Otherwise, your assessment seems accurate.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Frame Data wise, Ike wins. Jab comes out on frame 3-4 (yays for conflicting frame data on one attack). Ganon's fastest was......6 or 7? We have a frame data topic on the boards...

Ike has Jab and Bair OoS. Jab is Frame 3-4, Bair is frame 9 (including jump time), maybe Utilt. We actually haven't gone into OoS game that much. Been busy with a swarm of grab releases we found for Ike...

Ike actually has 4 spikes, but w/e.

While Ganon can Dark Dive if both are off stage, Ike can Aetherspike. Basically, both can take the other guy down.

How quickly can Ganon fly up and can he control the flight height? That all varies on what both Ike and Ganon can do in that situation.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Matchup is mostly about spacing for Ike. Don't be afraid to hit FC happy Ganons with a disjointed attack.

Jab stays out for frames 3-4 I believe. Frame 4 does like 1% less or something like that. F-smash OoS is too good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ah, yes, I keep forgetting about Fsmash. It's amazing how well it works....for some odd reason. O_o

 

[fromundaman]

Quick question: Don't really have time to make a real post as the library is closing, but what re Ike's 4 spikes. I see Dair, Dtilt, and Aether. (I forgot about Aether in the last post *doh*)

 

[Wyvern-x]

Eruption at the tip. Not many uses at all really...

 

[Hoser]

Eruption.

10spikes

 

[XACE-K]

F-smash OoS is too good.

Hate to ask but what is OoS?

Spoiler

Wow, I feel like an absolute n00b. D:

 

[Wyvern-x]

Out of Shield.

 

[guild525]

Quick question: Don't really have time to make a real post as the library is closing, but what re Ike's 4 spikes. I see Dair, Dtilt, and Aether. (I forgot about Aether in the last post *doh*)

Dair, Dtlit, Aether, and the tip of Ike's Eruption spikes (not really useful at all)

Edit: Dang beaten by two people, I type slow :'(

 

[XACE-K]

Out of Shield.

Thanks.

But I still feel like a n00b.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

or out of state.

 

[XACE-K]

or out of state.

OoS=Out of Shield, Out of State, I even saw Off of Stage just before.

This is confusing.

Back to Ganon!

 

[YagamiLight]

Good news! The busy (real life things) I was working on are practically over, so starting tomorrow I can devote more time to this (Excellent!).

As for the Ganon pic, it will be removed as soon as the article is up.

 

[XACE-K]

Good news! The busy (real life things) I was working on are practically over, so starting tomorrow I can devote more time to this (Excellent!).

As for the Ganon pic, it will be removed as soon as the article is up.

:D

As for next character, I say do PT, Boozer, DK or Ike ditto.

Spoiler

Or Falcon.

Spoiler

And even though you said Jiggs for #23, I say otherwise.

 

[Hoser]

:D

And even though you said Jiggs for #23, I say otherwise.

NO U

10NOU's

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I see it as they are alike like you said, but Ike has:

1) Range in both ground and air
2) Attack Speed (for once. >_>)
3) Small edge in power
4) Minimal fear of being gimped (at least compared to all of those other characters with projectiles or can go far off the stage with quick attacks and still make it back)
5) Superior Edgeguarding
6) A grab release which can send Ganon into the dead zone fairly quickly, depending how fresh Fair is.
7) The usual jab combos

While Ganon has.
1) Tech pwnage if Side B connects
2) Ganoncide when in the lead/really far behind in the same stock % wise
3) Tech Pwning with Side B and follow ups
4) The ability to fly like Superman randomly
5) Wiz Foot Canceling
6) Did I mention the things he can do following up his Flame Choke? They are a really big thing after all.

And they both have:
1) Killer Spikes (Ike has more, Ganon's is slightly stronger)
2) Ways to take down the opponent with them
3) Big Dead Zones >_>
4) Aerial -> Ground attack combos at low %s

Unless I'm missing something, Ike simply has more going for him from what I can see. Ganon Side B and their follow ups help him a lot and keep the match up from being harder for him, but there are a lot of things he can't answer well that Ike can throw at him.

As far as I know, Ike has two spikes while Ganon has three. Aerial Wizard Kick, Stomp and his anti aerial Gerudo spike.

I'd give this match-up a 55:45, slightly in Ike's favor. Basically because Ike has a easy time comboing Ganon, that and Ganon has just a bit more defense on him while Ike's faster.

And wtf? Jab isn't exactly one of our killing moves. It seems to me as though you have little/no knowledge of Ike whatsoever.

I have plenty knowledge of Ike, considering I fight a Ike main almost everyday, he's no joke either.

 

[XACE-K]

As far as I know, Ike has two spikes while Ganon has three. Aerial Wizard Kick, Stomp and his anti aerial Gerudo spike.

Ike has 4. D-air, d-tilt, tip of eription and Aether.

I'd give this match-up a 55:45, slightly in Ike's favor. Basically because Ike has a easy time comboing Ganon, that and Ganon has just a bit more defense on him while Ike's faster.

Combos don exits for Ike. We just have a chain of hits that occur due to bad DI. I sya 60-40 Ike's favor.

I have plenty knowledge of Ike, considering I fight a Ike main almost everyday, he's no joke either.

Jab still isn't a kill move. It can lead to kills (jab cancel -> f-tilt for example) but it isn't a kill move.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ike has 4. D-air, d-tilt, tip of eription and Aether.


Combos don exits for Ike. We just have a chain of hits that occur due to bad DI. I sya 60-40 Ike's favor.

A Aether spike would be pathetically hard to set up.

By "combos", I didn't mean actual combos.

 

[XACE-K]

A Aether spike would be pathetically hard to set up.

It can still happen. We'll reverse Aether if you're high enough or low enough and Aethercide if we're in that situation. Both will happen if the situation calls for it. We can't just want to do a reverse Aether at will, it just happens when it needs to happen.

By "combos", I didn't mean actual combos.

Ike still can't combo though. Ganon has more combo-like "combos" than Ike does.

 

[HeroMystic]

A Aether spike would be pathetically hard to set up.

Not really.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It can still happen. We'll reverse Aether if you're high enough or low enough and Aethercide if we're in that situation. Both will happen if the situation calls for it. We can't just want to do a reverse Aether at will, it just happens when it needs to happen.



Ike still can't combo though. Ganon has more combo-like "combos" than Ike does.

Ganon can't really combo either..

We have a couple of true tip man combos, such as, Tip man > Grab/Reverse F-Tilt/Reverse D-tilt/Reverse Jab/Gerudo /Wizkick, but they're all very situational and that's pretty much it.

 

[XACE-K]

Ganon can't really combo either..

We have a couple of true tip man combos, such as, Tip man > Grab/Reverse F-Tilt/Reverse D-tilt/Reverse Jab/Gerudo /Wizkick, but they're all very situational and that's pretty much it.

Same with Ike. Ours are somewha situational too. All I can think of are N-air->jabs(jab-cancel-> throw, d-throw->Aether if bad DI occurs and u-throw-> Read DI->U-air

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Same with Ike. Ours are somewha situational too. All I can think of are N-air->jabs(jab-cancel-> throw, d-throw->Aether if bad DI occurs and u-throw-> Read DI->U-air

Yeah, so my point's proven.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I honestly fail to see how anyone could see it has 55-45 only. Care to explain your insight a bit more? Because Ike is beating Ganon in Range in both ground and air attacks, Power (KOing moves wise at least, fairly sure about % wise as well), and for the most part attack speed as well as ground movement speed. Their recovering abilities are roughly the same, leaning towards a slight edge for Ganon in distance (would take a comparison in fall speed and aerial movement speed to known for sure), Edgeguarding and not being edgeguarded are both leaning towards Ike's favor (4 Spikes + Range > 2 Spikes + Wiz Foot for edgeguarding, Aether with the threat of being spiked if going for the Dair > Mini-teleport grab if too close thanks to Ike's Dair disjointedness for not being edgeguarded)

Ganon has stronger, longer combos, but Ike's are easier to pull out if you count Jab combos. Ike's combos are easier to DI out of, Ganon's are easier to avoid the initial start. Ike also has his grab releases, including the rather deadly ledge air-release -> walk-off Fair. Ike will make it back no problem, Ganon will get sent to his dead zone fairly quickly. Both have good OoS options, slight lean towards Ganon's favor thanks to Dair out of shield. Any other major weaknesses for either one of the two, the other can't capitalize on (like not having projectiles/ways to deal with projectiles)

I see it as 65-35 Ike, possibly 70-30 if I underestimated Ike's ability to grab Ganon by the edge. It would need testing to see how often Ike can pull off A->Grab or A->AA->Grab in the right spot. 60-40 if you can prove something I have over looked that's worth a lot in Ganon's favor. I really see few areas where Ganon has a big advantage, compared to the number of areas Ike has the big advantage.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I honestly fail to see how anyone could see it has 55-45 only. Care to explain your insight a bit more? Because Ike is beating Ganon in Range in both ground and air attacks, Power (KOing moves wise at least, fairly sure about % wise as well), and for the most part attack speed as well as ground movement speed. Their recovering abilities are roughly the same, leaning towards a slight edge for Ganon in distance (would take a comparison in fall speed and aerial movement speed to known for sure), Edgeguarding and not being edgeguarded are both leaning towards Ike's favor (4 Spikes + Range > 2 Spikes + Wiz Foot for edgeguarding, Aether with the threat of being spiked if going for the Dair > Mini-teleport grab if too close thanks to Ike's Dair disjointedness for not being edgeguarded)

Ganon has stronger, longer combos, but Ike's are easier to pull out if you count Jab combos. Ike's combos are easier to DI out of, Ganon's are easier to avoid the initial start. Ike also has his grab releases, including the rather deadly ledge air-release -> walk-off Fair. Ike will make it back no problem, Ganon will get sent to his dead zone fairly quickly. Both have good OoS options, slight lean towards Ganon's favor thanks to Dair out of shield. Any other major weaknesses for either one of the two, the other can't capitalize on (like not having projectiles/ways to deal with projectiles)

I see it as 65-35 Ike, possibly 70-30 if I underestimated Ike's ability to grab Ganon by the edge. It would need testing to see how often Ike can pull off A->Grab or A->AA->Grab in the right spot. 60-40 if you can prove something I have over looked that's worth a lot in Ganon's favor. I really see few areas where Ganon has a big advantage, compared to the number of areas Ike has the big advantage.

You're overestimating your advantage in speed and range way to much. For example, Sonic is the fastest character in the game while Peach and Snake are two of the five characters tied as the fourth slowest in the game, but Sonic preforms dramatically bad against them. Snake has more range and power, thus giving Snake a point of rise in the match-up, while Peach has less range and power then what Sonic possess, but both Peach and Snake are still going to be in control of the match.

To summarize that, your exploiting Ike's main traits on Ganon a lot more then you should.